Tactics Berezina defensive positions

[komet]

One would think that after playing the majority of the tank maps in RO that
knowledge and use of the tank cannon rangefinder would be a big plus in future
battles. It's a lot like scaling the learning curve.
Apparently in Berezina, where the Russians have the armor superiority, that's not the case. It's hard to accept everytime when the Germans can push back the Russians so easliy to the East Bank. So, what's up with those lame-brained
KV operators anyway?
The Russians have impressive defensive positions but don't seem to know how to deploy them effectively. Simply fortify the flanks with armor, primarily, and place the infantry in the pocket(middle). This forces the Germans to assualt
the middle-which they do 99% of the time anyway- thus allowing the Russian
tankers to offer much more effective support fire for their infantry.
I'm certain this isn't a new tactic, but when you hear those Russian "leaders"
confidently instruct everyone to fall back to the East Bank, when they are slowly
losing the 2nd Line, it makes you shake your head.
It's a fun and realistic map, and it would be a shame to have to see it lose
popularity so soon despite its beta stage.

 

[kapulA]

The best tactic on Berezina which worked for me 100% of the times is that we fall back to 1st line immidiately and hold it for as long as we can,same at the 2nd line,and the last line of defense is the East bank,after we get low on reinforcements.We let them have everything inbetween...

 

[NKatsyev]

The best tactic on Berezina which worked for me 100% of the times is that we fall back to 1st line immidiately and hold it for as long as we can,same at the 2nd line,and the last line of defense is the East bank,after we get low on reinforcements.We let them have everything inbetween...

This could perhaps be an effective tactic, and I have seen it work. However this often leads to an uncomfortable situation where the Soviets are dangerously low on reinforcements in the last minutes of the game. Oddly enough as it may seem, putting up a tenacious defense for every trench and building seems actually to be more cost effective in men and buys more time. Perhaps for the simple fact that it keeps the Germans more on their toes, their never sure exactly where you are and can thus plan ahead less.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I have played the map at times where there are very active squad leaders on VOIP. That in itself is a very good thing.

However, just as you sometimes have Russians moving forward of their own defensive objectives (95% of the time a bad idea), these leaders will recommend leap frogging backwards defensively without taking into account the actual tactical situation.

Examples of statements:

-(While in 1st Defense Line) "at reinforcements of 80%, everyone must fall back to the 2nd defensive line"
-(While at 2nd Defense Line) "at reinforcements of 50%, everyone must fall back to the East Bank"

--------------------

What about the Farm? What about the Village, AT Guns, etc?

Every situation is different. If the situation dictates you are going to loose the position, fall back to the next one to slow the Germans down. Most of the time they will then loose precious minutes moving in on it, and then trying to cap it. There is almost never the need to fall back so drastically, nor does it have to be at a predetermined reinforcement level. In many cases if necessary, a few Russians can hold and slow down the Germans while others get set up at the next fallback position. Of course, as the reinforcement level does get low, then falling back is usually the wisest decision.

Also, you are right. The Russians need to use their tanks wisely. Thankfully I see this being done more and more...

 

[The_Vicar]

I agree with Moe. Too often as the Russians you get someone on VOIP insisting that you fall back from 1st line to 2nd for example, with no attempt to try to hold the farm. Yes, the 2nd line gives a very strong defence, but a few riflemen along the rock wall in front of the farm can pick off germans as they come over the brow of the hill. I once did this on my own, and was able to stay alive for a fair while simply because the Germans didn't expect anyone there. I find it is often best to hold each objective for as long as possible, and retreating when you are sure you would not be able to hold it.

If a VOIP leader is asking for everyone to fall back though, and everyone follows I will do the same. In this game, sometimes just having everyone cooperating is more important than the plan itself.

 

[Archeoptrix]

Also there's two objectives that could be recaptured (not sure which version that was) but retaking them became a major drain when I played it and that was done. Guerilla warfare worked, capture it, then run away knock out the stragglers, let them gian confidence, recapture it again, rinse, repeat.

 

[EvilHobo]

I often try to convince Russians to make human speedbumps out of themselves, by dispersing throughout and holding the caps which are between the primary defensive positions. When killed, they are to go to the next defensive line. It works well say, in the Village area, where there are numerous buildings which can be entered and used as places to ambush German units, sometimes from all sides. Most importantly though, it buys time forcing them to have to kill you.

 

[Nimsky]

I was playing a game of Berezina the other day and it was really good. When we (Russians) got down to 15% reinforcements, I instructed my team to fall back to the final objective using VOIP. To my surprise, people actually did! It was awesome. I told people to get in the trenches and fortify the position, and ordered them not to die. We won a few moments later.

It was awesome. GG to those who played on that round.

This map is definately harder for the Germans than for the Russians if both teams are skilled. The team with the best communication usually wins. Exactly how it's supposed to be!

Usually, as Soviets, it's best to get in a trench and dig in - and have the tanks position themselves on the flanks.

As Germans, the tanks have to flank the Soviet tanks and take them out. The German infantry will have a hard time advancing while the Soviet tanks are there, so Soviet tanks are priority to take out. Flanking is extremely important. And artillery! The Germans can't win without a competent commander that calls in artillery on tanks and tough infantry positions! Also, High Explosive shells on the trenches can help a lot too.

 

[Bat Guano]

I haven't played this one enough to have the answer, but it sounds like there have been some good points made in this thread. Berezina is interesting in the demands it makes on the Russian team to think tactically and play smart. If there is good teamwork on the Russian side this is a great map and it can still go either way. If not, and you have people running around willy-nilly and charging into machine gun fire from the Panzers, it's terrible. It's kind of like the German situation on Konigsplatz on a much grander scale.

 

[Dagwood]

Teamwork and good communication can make a difference on any map. If a few people work together on this one it can make the Russians almost impenetrable. Awesome map.

 

[piller]

typically also the defensive positions on that map suit more than 16 people, so theres bound to be holes in your line somewhere

 

[Quietus]

Finally got to play this map in the last few days. Let me say really awesome map! first. My philosophy as Russians (haven't tried Germans till today, and only for 10 minutes) is to fight for every objective, never just give the Germans objectives. You're going to have to fight them eventually why not for the current objective? Hold them back as long as possible and always try to take back re-cappable objectives then if you played smart by the time they get to the last objective they won't have enough time to take it anyway. The old "you can fight them there or here" take your pick. If you just let them take objectives by the time they reach the last they'll have 40minutes to pound you into submission while switching tactics till one works (if they're smart players that is). Keep the Germans face at the grindstone and don't take it off...EVER!!

 

[20.PzGr.Schweiser]

The only way to win this map as the Russians is not to give up ANY land or holding. Giving up anything without a fight is a losers game. The infantry has to infiltrate every building, every hole, every inch of ground they can, while the tanks support. Tankers HAVE to use the prepared positions, the engineers worked very hard to put them there.

As far as the Germans, they have to get around the prepared positions, and take the objectives under heavy fire. If the Germans hold back at all they will lose the game.

This is a GREAT map. It is probably the best combined arms maps out there right now. If both sides work as a team, and not give up any ground, the Russians can easily cause a German loss. On the other hand, if the Germans keep advancing and never look back, the Russians will be hard pressed to win.

Salute to the creater of this map!!!

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Only the major lines should be worried about.

Attempting to maintain the Farm or Village just results in a huge loss of reinforcements.

 

[kapulA]

Agreed,I usually tell my team-mates to pull back to the next defensive line only after the current one is swamped,reinf are getting low or it just becomes impossible to hold;all the objectives inbetween 1st line,2nd line and the East Bank are very hard and un-rewarding to hold,in my opinion the defense should be focused on these 3 lines.

 

[Quietus]

Agreed,I usually tell my team-mates to pull back to the next defensive line only after the current one is swamped,reinf are getting low or it just becomes impossible to hold;all the objectives inbetween 1st line,2nd line and the East Bank are very hard and un-rewarding to hold,in my opinion the defense should be focused on these 3 lines.

I think the harder an objective is to hold the MORE rewarding it is. I think it's just people being lazy and not wanting to fight guerilla style and just wanting to use the sanctuary of the trenches where it's much easier to fight. Trust me if you just "give" Germans objectives you're gonna be sorry if they have some good players (especially tankers) to capitalize on your blunder.

 

[Rameusb5]

As already mentioned, the Russians are so strapped for reinforcements on this map that they are forced to defend only those positions that are the most costly for the Germans to capture.

IMHO, the best way to handle this is to put up a "token" resistance at the non-trench objectives, but when those defenders die, they should reinforce the main objectives and dig in (prepare). The key for the defenders is to LIVE. I have yet to see the Germans win this map while the Russians have reinforcements left.

I also agree that this map would benefit quite a lot from more players. Hopefully someday RO will support 64 or more players. THEN you'll see a hell of a battle. As it stands now, it's too easy (IMHO) for the Germans to flank, particularly at the second line.


That being said, I still think this is the best RO map so far. I can't wait for workable AT guns so that the Russian infantrymen can actually defend against the tanks without having to rely on their own tanks (which, if you have meatheads playing, usually die quite fast).

 

[Quietus]

As already mentioned, the Russians are so strapped for reinforcements on this map that they are forced to defend only those positions that are the most costly for the Germans to capture.

IMHO, the best way to handle this is to put up a "token" resistance at the non-trench objectives, but when those defenders die, they should reinforce the main objectives and dig in (prepare). The key for the defenders is to LIVE.

Yeah that's true but sometimes conserving reinforcements and letting them come to you is still not enough. Get at least a couple of expert German tankers who can accurately fire HE shells (into trenches especially) and even trenches won't save the Russians unless their tankers are equally good. I prefer a combination of guerilla fighting & standard trench fighting.

 

[kapulA]

Well,everytime I played as Russians on this map,I won;and the feel of defending the 1st line was great,just like in real war,more waiting than combat and when Jerries made silhuettes on the ridge there was a hellfire of rifles,MGs,tanks and AT rifles pointed at them,but we still eventually fell back.
Imo,the best defensive position is the one from which you can inflict most casualties on the attacking force,and AT rifles work pretty well vs the PZ IIIs and IVs

 

[Plaid13]

The problem with the russians using the tanks to defend in those ressesed tank pits is two big things... the kv1 main gun can not aim down hill much at all and they are always on the top of the hill. secondly theres alot of infantry on this map and those resessed pits block out the second tank MG so unless you have someone solo tanking those spots **** the tank is much more effective with a full crew slowly moving around with both MGs spraying almost nonstop. Those tank pits are the bane of team tanking on custom maps. i absolutely hate them. If the front was lowered enough for the second MG to be used then it would be alot better.