Balance the M99 thread

[Amber Glass]

if you think removing the reload speed of sharp would make it useless, you are just a really terrible sharpshooter. people definitely didnt use the bow before the IJC update, with the only difference being you actually had to aim.

as far as the M99 goes, it is easily affordable if your team isnt bad and die every wave. i think it is fine how it is, it's still massively OP

 

[moleculo]

And I remember when the xbow 1 shotted 6p HoE fleshpounds. Comparing sharp to support and zerk is pretty silly considering all 3 perks are extremely versatile. But, no other perk has the range versatility of a sharpshooter whether it be far away medium range, or point blank. I also fail to see how demo is up there when he can't do anything at close range, isn't good at kiting, heavily relies on his teammates to get clean shots off whereas the other 3 perks are completely self sufficient. Zerker has been discussed in depth so I won't bother repeating what has been said and supports are useless past medium range and again, are only effective against fp and sc because of bugs. Funny how you completely ignore this fact. You don't balance a game around bugs, you fix them.

So now you want to waste AA12 ammo on trash at range. What a great idea considering that at that range, AA12 still leaves headless gorefasts and bloats because only 1 pellet will hit the target due to spread. The whole point of headless medium trash is that they meat shield the stuff behind them. Of course, husks aren't a threat range so you're right, at that range the headless bloat shielding the husk is no biggie since the husk can't get close enough to bash you on the head with his cannon...oh wait...

Since falz is bringing in the videos, then show us how a sharpshooter without any reload bonuses is useless within the context of a match.

Yeah, and sharp doesn't have the horrendous raw killing power of support. Fix buggy shotgun damage for bigger specimens and then we can talk about nerfing sharp again. How often would you value range over support's versatility (note that sharp no longer would be versatile), especially when 1 sharp with LAR or any class with bow could do the husk-killing just the same as a bow-sharp. And don't tell me anything about scrakes, why would you even need to kill them at range when a support can just fire through them (or you know.. PAST them?) if they get on the way, and finish them off with HSG if they get close. I've played all-supports matches and scrakes were zero problem there. Not anything worth using a sharp dedicated for solely killing them.

I don't know when I said you should use AA12 instead of mk at a range where it only decaps. On the other hand, I see no problem there either. When were you playing a support and thought "Oh my, that gorefast is blocking my line of fire, why can't I just fire sraight through it?". Headless gorefasts will get killed along with other zeds without any exra effort.

Also what is that nonsense about bloats shielding husks? Fine, you can have that sharp with LAR or a bow-medic/commando/support take the bloat out if it's so troublesome. BTW, a support with bow would be more useful than sharp with bow (considering supports already can take scrakes out with no problems whatsoever), how cool is that.

 

[vealck]

First, I was talking about removing reload speed bonus only.

There was a time, when SS had no reload speed bonus for xbow, while HoE headshot resistances were already present. And people managed to kill FP then just fine.

Reload speed bonus is not needed at all to kill scrakes. And FP's still could be killed, given enough distance. Also, it would make no difference when dealing with SC/FP with M14. The only difference: xbow sharp couldn't kill FP at point blank range and M14 sharp wouldn't put commando to shame anymore in terms of reloading speeds.

Those are logical and bland samples of "OP" that needed adjusting. Your complaining about the Sharpshooter's ability to reload his class weapons is a dumb form of "balancing" and a obvious sample of your bias in wanting to make the game more challenging when the reality is.. you are simple too awesome at Killing Floor. Arblarg posted in the "one thing he wanted in killing floor" thread was a memory wipe so he can do it ALLLL over again.

Look, the thing is - if someone can't enjoy the game on HoE because it's too hard, he has four other difficulties to choose from. When someone can't enjoy the game on HoE because it's too easy - he doesn't have an alternative.When someone doesn't want the challenge, he can always go on hard and chop scrakes with katana all day long. The things I mentioned were totally ruining the HoE difficulty for me, and many of my steam friends. Maybe we are not that many in number, but when HoE becomes unbalanced, we have nowhere to go.

 

[ArcheKruz]

I think it's myopic to suggest all or none. I think the reload bonuses are ridiculous too, but I think that it should be reduced instead of removed.

 

[Spicy]

As far as reload speeds go, why not this?

1) Keep reload speed bonuses for sharpshooter.
2) Increase the base reload time to account for reload bonus.
3) Sharp keeps the same "old" (pre-autobow) xbow and m99 reload speeds, but off perk reload speeds are slower.

Also, I love when posters pick fights with Scary and expect to win.

 

[poosh]

First, I was talking about removing reload speed bonus only.

There was a time, when SS had no reload speed bonus for xbow, while HoE headshot resistances were already present. And people managed to kill FP then just fine.

Reload speed bonus is not needed at all to kill scrakes. And FP's still could be killed, given enough distance. Also, it would make no difference when dealing with SC/FP with M14. The only difference: xbow sharp couldn't kill FP at point blank range and M14 sharp wouldn't put commando to shame anymore in terms of reloading speeds.

I think you are talking about fire rate bonus, not the reload bonus. Actually Xbow and M99 don't have reload at all. What you see on the screen is fire animation (including new bolt/bullet loading into the gun).
Previously only LAR had fire rate bonus. In v1035 (when M99 was added) fire rate bonus was applied on M99 and xbow too, completely overpowering SS and making sniping SC/FP lame.

So I do agree that fire rate bonus must be removed from xbow and M99, I disagree of removing reload bonus for other SS weapons, including pistols.

 

[masteriamamind]

You can not balance a anti material rifle in any game against soft targets. By all rights of the cartridge used, the m99 should be able to 1 shot everything with a head shot. It would make more since to play with the stats on the other SS weapons. There are a few grievances I have with some Sharp Shooter weapons.

*Lar is more powerful than the tier 3 (m14) weapon.

* m14 sights are off. SS class has to land a head shot to get a damage bonus.

*A wood slinging cross bow is more powerful/ versatile than a Anti material rifle. Oh and it penetrates infinitely.

* m99 is priced into uselessness. Even on the "easier" levels. Not worth the cost on any level.

*desert eagle got weakened because the forum complained there wasn't a reason to carry 2 over 1. Mk23 laughs in the face of all.

My suggestions to balance everything I just spoke of.

1. Give the m14 accurate iron sights and its original ammo capacity of 240.

2. Remove penetration from xbow. A arrow can decimate 1 target. That.s it.

3. 250 for 1 bullet for the m99? Fine. M99 now has the xbow's former infinite penetration. Because it's actually designed to destroy lightly armored vehicles.

4. Restore original damage value to desert eagle. change penetration from .5 to .9 Increase head shot multiplier slightly for SS only. The king returns!


These are the most reasonable solutions I can come up with that has a chance of actually being implemented.

 

[moleculo]

Reload speed bonus is not needed at all to kill scrakes. And FP's still could be killed, given enough distance. Also, it would make no difference when dealing with SC/FP with M14. The only difference: xbow sharp couldn't kill FP at point blank range and M14 sharp wouldn't put commando to shame anymore in terms of reloading speeds.

That's the problem. M14 would remain fairly unchanged, whereas bow wouldn't be a desirable alternative in any situation anymore. Trash, husks/sirens, FPs and especially scrakes - M14/LAR would wipe the floor with bow. Again.

Then there's the thing everybody seems to be forgetting. Sharp is inferior to every single class if he doesn't score headshots. Can he be effective when he does headshots? Yeah. But I would expect him that. What's the point of using such class if his potential was low even when he succeeds? Because let's be honest: nobody has 100% HS rate in all situations, and on the other hand sharp doesn't benefit from the bodyshots somebody else might be making. Also sharp is often just as helpless as demo when a wild scrake breaks through the lines

Support, demo (yes, demo) and sharp are fairly well balanced (relatively) CURRENTLY. Support doesn't get screwed if the zeds are moving erratically, he wipes entire hallways clean with a couple of shots and deals with FP easily. Demo clears trash effectively the same as support, only at range, and pretty much rapes FPs. Neither are quite as versatile as sharp (though support comes close when properly played, mk kills trash the same as sharp at range and HSG handles scrakes, especially with a team to back you up), but seriously what does it matter in a co-op game, especially when they offset each other's weaknesses so well? Both support and demo are a lot easier to play and better at killing trash, I think that's a rather reasonable tradeoff for "being less versatile".

Then let's think about a nerfed sharp vs others. Demo does everything at range that sharp does (including husks) WHILE still being awesome at trash clearing (unlike nerf-sharp) AND at killing the most dangerous specimen in the game. Support is even closer to sharp with mk23 at long range, and don't even get me started on close range. He can also kill FPs no prob, and is a lot closer to sharp at scrake killing, even better in optimal conditions. Even firebug can kill scrakes while still being way more effective in all the other situations than sharp.

So nerfing sharp without nerfing other classes would be just mean for the poor sharp.

But even if you were to unbalance the game like that by balancing only 1 class that needs balancing, I'd say Spicy and poosh gave the better suggestions of only tweaking bow (and M99 ofc) and then increasing off-perk reloads for them

 

[vealck]

I think you are talking about fire rate bonus, not the reload bonus.

Well, I know that technically there is no reload in Xbow/M99, but I called it that because a) it seems that it's risen by the same (?) value that reload speeds are and b) I'd opt for reducing the reload speeds for other SS weapons as well.

To be honest, I still see reload speed bonus as a commando thing. And reloading M14 / lar is ridiculously fast compared to commando weapons.

 

[vealck]

whereas bow wouldn't be a desirable alternative in any situation anymore

M14 can't reach husk or siren if there's anything in front of it. Xbow can, even when there are multiple enemies in fron of it. The effective distance at which something can be precisely killed still is much greater.

Also sharp is often just as helpless as demo when a wild scrake breaks through the lines

How so? One shot from lar / xbow and scrake is stunned. You can even flinch-lock him with m14 if you get the right timing.

Then let's think about a nerfed sharp vs others.

Support must be near point-blank its target in both speedkilling FP/SC techniques. Demo needs exact distance, and one stalker in the way can effectively mess up the speedkill. Xbow sharp, even when taken away machinegun xbow speed, can deal with those from the other end of a map.

The thing is, second/third hipshot bolt technique made scrakes and FP laughable, and it works on all distances, even at point blank. If reload (firing) speed bonus was removed, a player would have to make choice between long (xbow) and short (m14) distance play.

 

[moleculo]

M14 can't reach husk or siren if there's anything in front of it. Xbow can, even when there are multiple enemies in fron of it. The effective distance at which something can be precisely killed still is much greater.

That's a valid point, on the other hand, LAR does let you try again almost instantly if you miss.

How so? One shot from lar / xbow and scrake is stunned. You can even flinch-lock him with m14 if you get the right timing.

So you can headshot a raging scrake from the side/back when it's molesting your teammates?

Support must be near point-blank its target in both speedkilling FP/SC techniques. Demo needs exact distance, and one stalker in the way can effectively mess up the speedkill. Xbow sharp, even when taken away machinegun xbow speed, can deal with those from the other end of a map.

No matter what, both demo and support would be way better at FP-killing if you remove all sharp reload/RoF bonuses. Also note that one stalker in the way messes things for sharp too, usually meaning you need to score an extra bow-shot.

Also it's no big deal for support to shoot through the scrake before it rages, then finish it. If it's not in the way you could just wait. Or have an M14-sharp rage it quickly, perhaps finish as well. No matter what, no need to have 1 person in the team who can't do anything but kill scrakes slowly at range. Gah, if you want the slow scrake slayer just use firebug, at least he can do something when he's not shooting scrakes

The thing is, second/third hipshot bolt technique made scrakes and FP laughable, and it works on all distances, even at point blank. If reload (firing) speed bonus was removed, a player would have to make choice between long (xbow) and short (m14) distance play.

I don't know who would have to make a choice between a piece-of-turd nerfbow and M14

 

[vealck]

So you can headshot a raging scrake from the side/back when it's molesting your teammates?

With xbow, yeah. With lar usually other volumes of his body block headshot zone. And of course it requires teammates smart enough to duck/stand still when SC is raping them. But if they prefer to try outrunning speeding chainsaw train and take more damaging attacks than standing still... well... hope they enjoy spectacing the rest of the round.

I don't know who would have to make a choice between a piece-of-turd nerfbow and M14

Like I said - people were killing FP/SC just fine before xbow became a machinegun. And it was in times when sharps were still used as main sc/fp countermeasure, as speedkill techniques were not that widely known.

 

[moleculo]

...And of course it requires teammates smart enough to duck/stand still when SC is raping them. But if they prefer to try outrunning speeding chainsaw train and take more damaging attacks than standing still... well... hope they enjoy spectacing the rest of the round.

You don't play pubs much, huh? If they ever stood still...

Like I said - people were killing FP/SC just fine before xbow became a machinegun. And it was in times when sharps were still used as main sc/fp countermeasure, as speedkill techniques were not that widely known.

Sure you can kill fine with slower bow, but in my opinion it's fine now considering the current state of balance. I mean, other classes can get rid of FPs pretty damn fast/easily as well while having their own advantages over sharp, so I don't see a problem with sharp being able to kill scrakes quickly in turn. When it comes to balancing I'd still like to see other changes to other classes introduced at the same time, because xbow is hardly the only thing that could/should be tuned down.

And really, I still wouldn't ever use bow again if it had a reload closer to 2 sec. Maybe it's just me, but M14 would be way more effective at killing big guys, which is sharp's main job after all. At least on the fundamental level

 

[Althamus]

And really, I still wouldn't ever use bow again if it had a reload closer to 2 sec. Maybe it's just me, but M14 would be way more effective at killing big guys, which is sharp's main job after all. At least on the fundamental level

I prefered non-gatling bow over M14. Xbow could kill scrakes at any distance, almost any situation, and kill FPs at any distance on... suicidal or below I think? It's been a while. Admittedly, on HoE, if you want to solo him you need distance with it.

M14 requires you to be very proficient with the weapon. You NEED to be able to land 10 headshots in 4 seconds or whatever to take a FP, and need to be able to land 7(?) very quickly to flinchlock a scrake. You also need to be the main target, and be at close range (well, scrakes can be taken at medium range with the M14, but if you have teammates, chances are excellent that they'll draw aggro as they see a raging scrake running at the team and start firing wildly).

If you're excellent, LAR/EBR is better. If you're not, the Xbow is WAY better. And tbh in team games, you can probably still kill a FP, as 2-3 bolts + help from teammates will finish it off.

 

[moleculo]

I prefered non-gatling bow over M14. Xbow could kill scrakes at any distance, almost any situation, and kill FPs at any distance on... suicidal or below I think? It's been a while. Admittedly, on HoE, if you want to solo him you need distance with it.

M14 requires you to be very proficient with the weapon. You NEED to be able to land 10 headshots in 4 seconds or whatever to take a FP, and need to be able to land 7(?) very quickly to flinchlock a scrake. You also need to be the main target, and be at close range (well, scrakes can be taken at medium range with the M14, but if you have teammates, chances are excellent that they'll draw aggro as they see a raging scrake running at the team and start firing wildly).

Scrakes aren't a big problem when you carry LAR+M14. If something goes south you can keep scrakes stunned infinitely with LAR, and if you just let scrakes come closer the flinchlocking isn't that hard for anybody who's practiced it a bit (as long as your team isn't doing their best to get you killed). At long distances I could think of some LAR+M14 combos, like 3 x M14 and 3 x LAR, but that's probably not faster than 2 bow shots.

 

[naksiloth]

In my humble opinion if M99 gonna get a buff, Crossbow should get a nerf too. M99 is an anti-material rifle while Crossbow is a mere tool to pierce wood targets.
M99 AMR:
*Only can be shot with scope/ironsights, huge kickback; you step back a bit like you're shooting a shotgun, that would cause rifle to miss when a big specimen hug you too.
*Infinite pierce with a very little amount of damage loss.
*No reload bonus with base reload time of 3.94-4.2 seconds, that won't be any safer or quicker than 10 lined up M14 headshots, everytime you have to hit FP from very far else you'll risk others. Max ammunition is limited to 15 bullets carried. That will prevent people to use it on anything smaller than a Scrake yet again.
*Base damage should be lowered a bit to 660, which won't be enough to stun a Scrake "off-perk" at high difficulties; like a Support or Medic using it.
*A increase in base price would surely draw unskilled Sharps away from the weapon. I'd say 6500

 

[poosh]

So you can headshot a raging scrake from the side/back when it's molesting your teammates?

Smart teammate runs and sits in front of Sharpie to line up raged Scrakes. Dumb one is supposed to die anyway - that's a base rule of evolution.

 

[ArcheKruz]

If you ask me, Sharpshooters should keep their reload bonuses, except for the Crossbow and the M99. This is because the reload speed of the XBow and the M99 dictates the firing rate of those weapons.

 

[naksiloth]

Crossbow is fine imho, keep the reload speed bonus, by balancing its price; if price change is not possible, then remove it from SS lvl6 bonus entirely. Make it so, SS lvl5 spawns with LaR, and lvl6 spawns with a Hunting Rifle(??). So it will keep its use against Patriarch; fast reload will keep Patriarch pinned and kneeled down as long as you can keep baggin' headshots to him.

As for M99 it's a different story, M99 should shine by being a long range heavy hitter, but should not overcome the crossbow in the terms of its dps. That's why I want its reload speed removed. If crossbow is mostly compared to M14 in the terms of killing stuff, M99 should be a long-range slow-reload heavy-hitter just like a Lever-action Rifle on steroids with its usage being similar to a L.A.W.

 

[Amun Ra]

There is a difference between overpowered and abused. The M99 was abused when ammo for it was sickly cheap and the weapon's price tag wasn't much of a deterrent for any class being able to wield it effectively.

Veterans quickly exploited the weapon and abused it's power. Which was why a price increase in ammo would make a whole team think twice about "one for every player" and the abuse quickly faded out of existence except for beginner/normal servers playing with Level 6's. (Unless your a Korean style gaming team. I don't think most of you would have much luck with it on Suicidal and HOE. The costs get pretty staggering for even one wasted shot. And 9mm's are not good at trash cleanup on those difficulties.)

The weapon is not overpowered in the hands of a terrible shot. In all respect, missing a shot costs a lot of money. So it's either a blessing or a burden on a team. The Crossbow in every use is just as overpowered, it's weight even allows for side arms. Just like the M99, in the hands of a good sharp shooter, its devastating, but in the hands of a bad one, it's terrible!

IF ANY OF YOU CONTINUE THESE DEBATES ON THE CURRENT STATUS OF THE M99! YOU MIGHT AS WELL JUST GET RID OF THE WHOLE SHARP SHOOTER PERK COMPLETELY! AS IT WILL CONTINUE TO SNAG YOUR KILLS REGARDLESS OF WHICH WEAPON IS OP OR NOT! EITHER IT BE AN LAR, M14EBR, CROSSBOW, and M99. GOD FORBID WE CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON THIS WEAPON IN SUCH FUTILE DISPUTES WHEN THE ANSWER IS JUST TO GET RID OF THE CLASS...! And none of us really wants that. (I'm Just happy a good Sharpshooter takes some of the load of the team effort against those FP's and Scrakes!)

Oh and, Please support the BD Hunting rifle thread. We are always looking for support as this weapon is almost mandatory to get added to the official game as a true Sharpshooter weapon.