Balance the M99 thread

[naksiloth]

In this thread can we discuss and put out ideas about how to balance this cannon?

My offer it being tied with L.A.W to balance it. You shouldn't be able to fire a cannon that recoils that much without ironsights/scope, and possibly remove reloading bonus from it.

In a HoE 6p game, nailing a headshot to a Fleshpound still leaves its headhealth enough for 2 more crossbow shots. M99 granting 80% more effective headshot damage at a single shot for the cost of 239

 

[Merdic]

Spoiler!

In this thread can we discuss and put out ideas about how to balance this cannon?

My offer it being tied with L.A.W to balance it. You shouldn't be able to fire a cannon that recoils that much without ironsights/scope, and possibly remove reloading bonus from it.

In a HoE 6p game, nailing a headshot to a Fleshpound still leaves its headhealth enough for 2 more crossbow shots. M99 granting 80% more effective headshot damage at a single shot for the cost of 239

 

[AlbusPluvia]

Being tied with the LAW eh? Having the M99 as a slow moving headshot-based projectile would be a lot of fun. To be honest, I don't see what the big deal with the M99 is. The LAW is better imo, but no one screams to balance it. It doesn't need to headshot, splash damage, as a demo you have PIPES + 11 nades, way damn cheaper (Money saved from LAW vs M99 will pay for ALL of your pipes and more) etc. The Sharp deals slightly higher damage with a headshot, has only straight penetration (useless with such a large weapon), and a perked 9mm.

Especially since in a 6man game, you wouldn't be able to instakill Fleshpounds and whatnot any easier than with a LAR + M14EBR or Xbow Sharp. (Experimental Xbow speedkill, throw nades, headshot to rage, headshot at will with autobow)

As for Scrakes, it's much better to use any sharp loadout to kill them. Sharps are almost designed to take out scrakes, even the pistol flinch techniques are super easy once you get the gist of it.

 

[Utopia-Phoenix]

Scrnbalance seem to have done it. No reload bonus/ bullet cost $40 each. Something like that.

 

[Azukki]

Slowing it down, and making ammo expensive but not ridiculous, yeah, that'd be the best way to approach it.

 

[vealck]

You want a balanced M99?
It should have the exactly same stats as xbow, then.

On a side note, sharpshooter should have his reload speed bonus removed for all weapons.

 

[Splatpope]

how to balance the M99 : remove it

 

[Zombie Overlord]

How to balance M99: Leave it where it lies. It is balanced in the regard, it is powerful however it is stupidly expensive and requires some team dosh coordination to load a good headshot ace with it. Then the ace has to contribute back by making those shots.

Finally, the great dream: forum-goers will stop whining about game balance so hard and so long, that no one takes their ideas seriously anymore. Its the same crap EVERYTIME...and the whining just doesn't make anything happen, just like with politics.

 

[vealck]

Finally, the great dream: forum-goers will stop whining about game balance so hard and so long, that no one takes their ideas seriously anymore. Its the same crap EVERYTIME...and the whining just doesn't make anything happen, just like with politics.

If there weren't any cries of outrage on the forums, we would still have scythe stunning 3 scrakes at once, buzzsaw stunning sc on bodyshot, and M99-wielding noobs on each server.

 

[moleculo]

You want a balanced M99?
It should have the exactly same stats as xbow, then.

On a side note, sharpshooter should have his reload speed bonus removed for all weapons.

Hell no, that would render sharpie completely useless.

Compare to support, sharp wouldn't kill trash at range much better than support with a pistol, support would be better at killing scrakes and miles ahead at killing fleshpounds. Not to mention support's close range capabilities. What would sharp be good at? Sirens and husks? Any random medic could do the same with bow while still being more useful than a nerfed sharp

 

[scary ghost]

Hell no, that would render sharpie completely useless.

Compare to support, sharp wouldn't kill trash at range much better than support with a pistol, support would be better at killing scrakes and miles ahead at killing fleshpounds. Not to mention support's close range capabilities. What would sharp be good at? Sirens and husks? Any random medic could do the same with bow while still being more useful than a nerfed sharp

...What..? Do you even play sharpshooter? Ever hear of mk23, magnum or handcannon? Support can't 1 hit kill trash at range with pistols not to mention sharp's lightning fast reloads. Sorry but no perk clears trash at range better than sharp due to some really good pistols he can use.

And lol..support would be better at killing fleshpounds and scrakes? Do think the m99 is the only weapon a sharp can use to kill the big guys? Sharp can kill scrakes at any range with a lar/xbow and juggle all the trash around the scrake. Meanwhile, the support has to wait for the scrake to get up close and clear everything first, possibly raging the sc in the process. Also, sharp can kill a fleshpound before he even finishes his rage animation. Only a demo does it faster, and 10 m14 bullets is a lot cheaper than 3 nades + 4 Hsg shells.

Sharp does not need the M99 to be useful, never has and never will. If you think a damage nerf will render the sharpshooter useless, then you should actually play sharpshooter and use some weapons other than M99.

 

[Zombie Overlord]

If there weren't any cries of outrage on the forums, we would still have scythe stunning 3 scrakes at once, buzzsaw stunning sc on bodyshot, and M99-wielding noobs on each server.

Those are logical and bland samples of "OP" that needed adjusting. Your complaining about the Sharpshooter's ability to reload his class weapons is a dumb form of "balancing" and a obvious sample of your bias in wanting to make the game more challenging when the reality is.. you are simple too awesome at Killing Floor. Arblarg posted in the "one thing he wanted in killing floor" thread was a memory wipe so he can do it ALLLL over again.

 

[moleculo]

...What..? Do you even play sharpshooter? Ever hear of mk23, magnum or handcannon? Support can't 1 hit kill trash at range with pistols not to mention sharp's lightning fast reloads. Sorry but no perk clears trash at range better than sharp due to some really good pistols he can use.

And lol..support would be better at killing fleshpounds and scrakes? Do think the m99 is the only weapon a sharp can use to kill the big guys? Sharp can kill scrakes at any range with a lar/xbow and juggle all the trash around the scrake. Meanwhile, the support has to wait for the scrake to get up close and clear everything first, possibly raging the sc in the process. Also, sharp can kill a fleshpound before he even finishes his rage animation. Only a demo does it faster, and 10 m14 bullets is a lot cheaper than 3 nades + 4 Hsg shells.

Sharp does not need the M99 to be useful, never has and never will. If you think a damage nerf will render the sharpshooter useless, then you should actually play sharpshooter and use some weapons other than M99.

Sorry but ever hear of off-perk mk23? It does exactly the same as perked mk23 against anything smaller than gorefast if you remove sharp reload bonus.

We are talking about removing ALL bonuses, no?

The only really effective weapon option for sharp FP/scrake killing would be M14, and that doesn't offer any more range than support's tactics, maybe would be a bit faster only. Not to mention FPs. A bow without reload bonus would be useless against them, and M14 is way riskier support's nade + hunting shotgun combo.

Sharp without ANY reload bonuses would be useless, I stand behind my opinion.

 

[scary ghost]

Sorry but ever hear of off-perk mk23? It does exactly the same as perked mk23 against anything smaller than gorefast if you remove sharp reload bonus.

We are talking about removing ALL bonuses, no?

The only really effective weapon option for sharp FP/scrake killing would be M14, and that doesn't offer any more range than support's tactics, maybe would be a bit faster only. Not to mention FPs. A bow without reload bonus would be useless against them, and M14 is way riskier support's nade + hunting shotgun combo.

Sharp without ANY reload bonuses would be useless, I stand behind my opinion.

Right because headless gorefasts and bloats are totally the same as dead ones. Never had a headless bloat set off a pipe bomb before nor a headless specimen protect sirens and husks. Bonus points for a choke point at range with husks behind the headless bloat lighting up the team. Nope, pistols with only damage bonuses are clearly as effective as unperked pistols.

The m14 lets you engage fp/scrake at any range. Supports cannot engage an fp at point blank, unless he plans on blowing himself up, nor can he do anything against scrakes at range. Lets not even mention that the HSG combos are all based on collision bugs that let the pellets hit the same target up to 3 times, meaning those combos shouldn't be working they way they are. And really, m14 is only a bit faster than support's combo? Try twice as fast, at least if the sharp is good enough at chaining at 10 headshots in a row. The fleshpound never finishes his rage animation against a sharp, meanwhile he's mad and charging down the support. Riskier yes, but more risk = more reward.

Sharp's xbow has never had a reload bonuses for the first 3.5 years of release. Guess what? It was just fine seeing as it's supposed to be a tier 2 weapon. The only real problem with the xbow was that it sold for

 

[moleculo]

Right because headless gorefasts and bloats are totally the same as dead ones. Never had a headless bloat set off a pipe bomb before nor a headless specimen protect sirens and husks. Bonus points for a choke point at range with husks behind the headless bloat lighting up the team. Nope, pistols with only damage bonuses are clearly as effective as unperked pistols.

The m14 lets you engage fp/scrake at any range. Supports cannot engage an fp at point blank, unless he plans on blowing himself up, nor can he do anything against scrakes at range. And really, m14 is only a bit faster than support's combo? Try twice as fast, at least if the sharp is good enough at chaining at 10 headshots in a row. The fleshpound never finishes his rage animation against a sharp, meanwhile he's mad and charging down the support. Riskier yes, but more risk = more reward.

Sharp's xbow has never had a reload bonuses for the first 3.5 years of release. Guess what? It was just fine seeing as it's supposed to be a tier 2 weapon. The only real problem with the xbow was that it sold for

 

[DarkFalz]

Sharp without ANY reload bonuses would be useless, I stand behind my opinion.

KF HoE - YouTube

There's the old Crossbow with no reload speed buff. It worked just fine against Scrakes back then and I always did fine with it. The only real hindrance was the Scrake's buggy head hitbox which you had to learn for landing the second shot.

Oh and I also have one for the M99:

Killing Floor: 6 Player HOE KF-IceCave Waves 9,10+Pat - YouTube

This was before the price increase for ammo obviously. Using it as a Support so no reload speed buff and no damage buff either. And yet I still killed almost every Scrake that appeared.

Forgive me but I'm failing to see why the reload speed buff is such a necessity on either of them.

 

[Merdic]

Spoiler!

I also remember bow killed FPs with 2 shots. No way sharp is any more OP than support/demo/berserker right now, and removing reload bonuses would put him way behind those.

You should also read the posts more carefully. "mk23 off-perk does exactly the same as perked mk23 against anything smaller than gorefast if you remove sharp reload bonus." And it does. Against anything bigger, you would use AA12 as support and only use mk at range, where headless gorefasts and stuff won't cause much damage at all.

No reload bonuses would essentially reduce sharp to only using M14 again, I don't see how that would be good.

So off-perk has the same effect on clots and crawlers as on-perk, woohoo.

 

[moleculo]

There's the old Crossbow with no reload speed buff. It worked just fine against Scrakes back then and I always did fine with it. The only real hindrance was the Scrake's buggy head hitbox which you had to learn for landing the second shot.

Oh and I also have one for the M99:

This was before the price increase for ammo obviously. Using it as a Support so no reload speed buff and no damage buff either. And yet I still killed almost every Scrake that appeared.

Forgive me but I'm failing to see why the reload speed buff is such a necessity on either of them.

Remember to also put the clip where you solo a FP at mid-close range with pre-buff bow when it takes 3 shots. That would be practically impossible most of the time in-game, and if you wish to make sharp awful at killing trash I can't justify not being able to kill FPs as well, when some other classes kill trash and FPs equally (support potentially even scrakes). "The guy that idles in the corner and occasionally kills scrakes" is not what you would expect from a class these days.

Also support is infinitely better at killing scrakes than a nerfed sharp if you are on a listen server.

BTW when did I say I'm against M99 reload time increase?

 

[moleculo]

So off-perk has the same effect on clots and crawlers as on-perk, woohoo.

Clots, crawlers and stalkers. That's pretty much everything that forms the trash zeds in the game. Excluding gorefasts, obviously. Not like headless gorefasts would be a problem at range.

 

[scary ghost]

I also remember bow killed FPs with 2 shots. No way sharp is any more OP than support/demo/berserker right now, and removing reload bonuses would put him way behind those.

You should also read the posts more carefully. "mk23 off-perk does exactly the same as perked mk23 against anything smaller than gorefast if you remove sharp reload bonus." And it does. Against anything bigger, you would use AA12 as support and only use mk at range, where headless gorefasts and stuff won't cause much damage at all.

No reload bonuses would essentially reduce sharp to only using M14 again, I don't see how that would be good.

And I remember when the xbow 1 shotted 6p HoE fleshpounds. Comparing sharp to support and zerk is pretty silly considering all 3 perks are extremely versatile. But, no other perk has the range versatility of a sharpshooter whether it be far away medium range, or point blank. I also fail to see how demo is up there when he can't do anything at close range, isn't good at kiting, heavily relies on his teammates to get clean shots off whereas the other 3 perks are completely self sufficient. Zerker has been discussed in depth so I won't bother repeating what has been said and supports are useless past medium range and again, are only effective against fp and sc because of bugs. Funny how you completely ignore this fact. You don't balance a game around bugs, you fix them.

So now you want to waste AA12 ammo on trash at range. What a great idea considering that at that range, AA12 still leaves headless gorefasts and bloats because only 1 pellet will hit the target due to spread. The whole point of headless medium trash is that they meat shield the stuff behind them. Of course, husks aren't a threat range so you're right, at that range the headless bloat shielding the husk is no biggie since the husk can't get close enough to bash you on the head with his cannon...oh wait...

Since falz is bringing in the videos, then show us how a sharpshooter without any reload bonuses is useless within the context of a match.