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Antilag mutator - a call for testing

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#241
Golf33 said:
I'm not a fan of this "bugger you Jack, I'm all right" attitude towards internet infrastructure.

I'm even less a fan of this "I paid for better internet access so I deserve an advantage over you". I could just as easily buy an aimbot hack and claim that since I paid for it, I deserve to have the advantage it brings.
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Not to sound like an *** (even though I will) but why should the internet gaming community as a whole pander to players who won't even shell out for a decent net connection?

I have no problem making things playable for the few who just plain can't manage it due to their location or whatever, but nothing's ever going to progress if we have to keep putting these compensation methods in our games.

Of course some people will never be satisfied even if there's 1ms of lag between an entire server sometime in the far future. This method of compensation we have is good, but it is not the perfect fix for everyone's ailments. Eventually problems will turn up as they do with anything. It seems like everyone is so caught up in the glamour of being able to hit without leading, and praising the system a little too early.
 
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#242
Reise said:
Not to sound like an *** (even though I will) but why should the internet gaming community as a whole pander to players who won't even shell out for a decent net connection?
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Fair enough. Tell you what, you give me $46 billion Australian and I'll get myself a better internet connection. Last year I was spending about $75 a month on internet access, which - in a house in the national capital - got me a max download speed of 140KB/sec and a minimum latency to the nearest RO2 server of 100ms. That's the best access available in that region. Since moving to the country, I've been lucky enough to get a house closer to the exchange, so now I pay $90 a month and get 300KB/sec and minimum latency of about 65ms. Again, that's the best connection available here. I could spend more but all it would get me is more bandwidth - and I don't use all the bandwidth I currently buy anyway.

I have no problem making things playable for the few who just plain can't manage it due to their location or whatever, but nothing's ever going to progress if we have to keep putting these compensation methods in our games.
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You know, you're right. Let's all write a letter to the United Nations and explain that internet games require low latency and would they please move the US and Australia closer to Europe. While they are at it, they should replace all the internet infrastructure between countries so the backhaul supports online gaming at low latency without any lag compensation.

It seems like everyone is so caught up in the glamour of being able to hit without leading, and praising the system a little too early.
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I'm just caught up in the glamour of being able to hit by leading the same way I would lead a real moving target on the firing range.
 
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#243
Edit** Golf beat me to the punch. Well said.

Reise said:
Not to sound like an *** (even though I will) but why should the internet gaming community as a whole pander to players who won't even shell out for a decent net connection?
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You definitely sound like one. I'm sure disadvantaged players don't purchase decent internet connections deliberately.

"Man, I live in an area that doesn't get good serivce, but it doesn't matter! I don't even need to buy a decent internet connection because X Game has anti-lag in it!"

Reise said:
[...] nothing's ever going to progress if we have to keep putting these compensation methods in our games.
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Anti-lag compensation is progress. RO2's vanilla model is the absolute antithesis of progression.

Reise said:
This method of compensation we have is good, but it is not the perfect fix for everyone's ailments. Eventually problems will turn up as they do with anything.
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But its far better than the alternative. This is a niche game. The majority of players who left the game aren't here because it was unplayable for them -- they didn't have local servers without serious latency issues. Nothing's perfect, you're absolutely correct. But the issues inherent with Mekhazzio's model are far less demanding (for everyone) than those within the vanilla model. The mutator increases performance/experience for everyone. The vanilla model barely supported the performance/experience for players lucky enough to have a server within a hundred miles.


Reise said:
It seems like everyone is so caught up in the glamour of being able to hit without leading, and praising the system a little too early.
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It seems that everyone is caught up in the glamour of the game working as it was designed.

The difficulty resulting from having to guestimate and lead for latency does not equate to skill, or realism.







Wally
 
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#244
flashmozzg said:
Client side hit detection=> very easy cheats with no solid way to protect/detect.
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This is always the point people harp about the most.

My two cents? I'd rather have consistency and reliability with the occasional hacker, which in such a tiny community should be taken care of swiftly on an admin'd server. Unless your play on a lawless, hoboken server it would seem like a worthwhile trade in lieu of ballistic inaccuracy and inconsistent leading.

While I agree that Ramms ideal setup of people finding a server close to them to enjoy a consistent match when they're around the 50ms mark is good, it's still JUST an ideal. It's unreasonable to assume that a game with such a small player base, spread all over the globe would have the luxury of relatively local, populated servers to play on at all times. The real world truth of the matter is that there are only a handful of populated servers that are consistently full for a split community.

For an example, take the 2FJG server #1, one of the most popular servers for this game. Constantly full, serving players from around the world at all times, day or night. Ramms Ideal player situation does not work in this environment, so I'll gladly take the next best thing that does work here.
 
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#245
Golf33 said:
You know, you're right. Let's all write a letter to the United Nations and explain that internet games require low latency and would they please move the US and Australia closer to Europe. While they are at it, they should replace all the internet infrastructure between countries so the backhaul supports online gaming at low latency without any lag compensation.
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Because it's impossible to host localized servers and have matches with people in your area.

WallyAussie said:
But its far better than the alternative. This is a niche game. The majority of players who left the game aren't here because it was unplayable for them -- they didn't have local servers without serious latency issues. Nothing's perfect, you're absolutely correct. But the issues inherent with Mekhazzio's model are far less demanding (for everyone) than those within the vanilla model. The mutator increases performance/experience for everyone. The vanilla model barely supported the performance/experience for players lucky enough to have a server within a hundred miles.

It seems that everyone is caught up in the glamour of the game working as it was designed.

The difficulty resulting from having to guestimate and lead for latency does not equate to skill, or realism.
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I'm not challenging the quality of the mutator at all. It works great. But I am sitting back and watching with a cautious eye because I know this won't just solve the game's issues overnight, and it could in fact still cause more with cheat vulnerabilities or other unforseen issues. Some people may end up wishing they hadn't just jumped on the bandwagon so quick if things go south.

It might sound stupid to you but I am incredibly afraid of this getting big and then having a massive growth in cheating because of how typically exploitable client-side hit detection is. If you want to see a dying game bite the dust really fast, that's the way to do it. It's a big risk.

So, apologies if I'm not quite as enthusiastic as some of you people are.
 
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#246
Reise said:
Because it's impossible to host localized servers and have matches with people in your area.
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How many people do you think play this game, to make that an option for everyone? There is typically one populated server running on this continent, and it's on the opposite side from me, 150ms away. This is a small, niche game, it doesn't have the player-base to support ubiquitous local servers.
 
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#247
Plan on testing this asap. Glad I didn't spend any time making my own since it sounds like you have a decent one already. How'd you end up implementing this? Swapping all the guns for anti-lag versions? I honestly haven't had time to mess with mutators for the past 3+ weeks so I'm still in the "the hell do you get client side code to execute" boat, although I think I have an idea now.

Either way, sounds impressive. You deserve praise for making this. My advice is to put out a version that is non-debug but still beta.

Also I wish I could take a hammer to the head of anyone who *****es about being shot after entering cover. You THOUGHT you got behind cover but in reality you were shot before hand. End of story. He pegged you .3 seconds before you entered cover.

Likewise, the whole "he saw something the other guy didn't" story is funny because back when I was in Alaska the closest populated Counterstrike server was in Anchorage and I had a 33k dial-up connection. Typically I got 250-280 ping. Let me tell, you, it works both ways and is never an advantage to have a high ping, even back when CS had a lag shield.

I'm not concerned about exploits. You'd have to be a real prick to intentionally sabotage everyone else's experience just to prove something is possible. I know, I'll roll my boogers into a ball and stick them into the holes in the red pepper shaker because pizza hut didn't implement a mechanism that prevents me from doing so. That would make me a real tough-guy haxxor now wouldn't it.

That said, high ping kickers are the bane of online gaming. It ruined battlefield 2 for me because I used to live in an apartment that would sporatically spike for a few seconds every few minutes or so. I had no Internet alternatives, in fact ISPs wouldn't service me because the apartment complex already had internet and the only alternative, WLAN, would get pings in 2 seconds+ during peak hours
 
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#250
Couple things I noticed

1. I took a mp40 and shot at really long range. I found that the debug markers were at times showing up above where I was aiming. Sometimes it was to the side of where I aimed. I realize there's probably a firing cone here but there doesn't appear to be bullet drop. Probably 200+ meters which is beyond the effective range of the mp40 (I shot from one side of station to the other). For the mp40 I would say the firing cone is much too accurate without bullet drop.

2. From what I can tell, bullets pierce hit boxes without stopping. I.E. if both my arm and my chest are in the way, then it'll hit both and do damage to both. I reason this because I shot a guy and saw overlapping damage debug text which seemed to indicate multiple hit boxes taking damage. I had a rifle though so maybe thats intended in that instance. Either way, if a shot is intended to be non-fatal to any part of the body except the heart or head, then its going to be fatal when you get shot in the arm.

Still, I would argue this is an improvement even with these problems
 
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#251
FBX said:
1. I took a mp40 and shot at really long range. I found that the debug markers were at times showing up above where I was aiming.
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All weapons in the game have an innate random spread associated with them. For the rifles, it's very small, and for the pistols, it's very large. The MP40 is roughly in between. At longer ranges, where your sights are centered is really just a suggestion to the bullets rather than a commandment :)
2. From what I can tell, bullets pierce hit boxes without stopping. I.E. if both my arm and my chest are in the way, then it'll hit both and do damage to both.
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Yep. Both this and the weapon spread are functioning exactly as they do in the normal game.
 
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#253
Bullet drop is one of the few things I didn't need to touch at all. It's performing exactly the same as standard RO2. In an early test version, I'd dropped the K98 down to a 70 meter/second muzzle velocity and given it a tracer, to be able to see the flight. The bullet drop still occurred at the same rate, so it was like lobbing softballs :D

Also, 2.7 meters drop @ 200m sounds a bit much for 9mm. Isn't it something closer to 2.7 feet relative to sights zeroed at 100m?
 
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#254
Mekhazzio said:
Bullet drop is one of the few things I didn't need to touch at all. It's performing exactly the same as standard RO2. In an early test version, I'd dropped the K98 down to a 70 meter/second muzzle velocity and given it a tracer, to be able to see the flight. The bullet drop still occurred at the same rate, so it was like lobbing softballs :D
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Sounds like the snipers in BF3. (SV98 and M40a5, the others are better)
 
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#255
Are you 100% sure? I did some more testing and I'm still not sure there is bullet drop. At long range with the k98 sniper on ogledow I picked a point about a mile away, shot at it, and the debug spot showed up exactly where I aimed. Likewise, I saw an afk teammate, so I ran far away, laid down, then shot at his foot and was hitting him. Additionally I didn't have to aim above someone's head to get a headshot.

I'm talking distances that you rarely ever see in the stock maps

I definitely see bullet lag where I have to lead my shots, but the bullet doesn't appear to be affected by gravity
 
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