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Antilag mutator - a call for testing

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#221
10-78 BusterKing said:
It would be nice if people would actually jump on a server and try this mutation before giving it bad reviews. It just isn't right imo.
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Sure. That's a valid point. But how do we know if they did try it out or didn't? We can't tell that by the persons hand writing.
I know that some just like to make negative posts for whatever reason they have. It's rather a rather childish thing to do, but it happens and we will never be able to stop it. But it still doesn't mean that they have no right to post at all. Mostly they make themselves look silly and pathetic.
 
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#222
PhoenixDragon said:
Speaking of not knowing what one is talking about: client-side hit detection has been the standard for online gaming pretty much since there was online gaming. With the exception of Quake and Unreal, almost every single game uses it (Or in the case of Source games, server-side latency compensation, which is identical from the perspective of the clients outside some edge cases). Even many games built on the Quake or Unreal engines use client-side hit-detection, even if they had to then add it in themselves.
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Source's method is probably the worst you could implement. It's just flat out bad.

I think you guys would get a lot more acceptance from people like me and Machinist who are the most used to having no compensation in our games at all if you dropped the "yeah well you don't know what you're talking about, so there" routine. Being worried about vulnerabilities and cheats is perfectly reasonable.

Some of us paid good money (and still pay good money) back when cable internet was first becoming available to get that "advantage" in-game, and to claim it's unfair for us to still have that advantage is a bit absurd. If you don't like it, make the concessions to attain that ability yourself. RO2 happens to be a special case where people generally have bad net performance no matter what connection they have, so a compensation model is at least tolerable in that regard.

Lots and lots of us that are against the idea have very little exposure to compensation methods that don't work like Source's. We hear the word and immediately think of all the times somebody with 700 ping was warping about getting shots on people that were completely impossible, killing us before we could react or see them, etc. That does happen with some ping compensation methods, there's no denying it. But as we see with RO2's implemented mutator and as in several other games I've played recently (like Tribes: Ascend), it doesn't happen with all.

What I've seen of this mutator so far is fairly positive. If it scales well and doesn't cause too many problems with players who have excessively large pings I see no reason to sit back and enjoy it for what it is. I will say that I also haven't seen much practical improvement over the standard game besides slightly faster client side hits, though. I had no trouble with the patched game as it was, and I hope Tripwire still fixes whatever problems with the base netcode that they can. The mutator works well enough so far for a lot of people, but nothing is perfect.
 
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#225
Ducky said:
People just give there opinions. What is wrong with that? Sure some posts are more negative than others, but that doesn't mean that each post can not add value to a discussion.

By the way... your list is a bit wrong :p
Don't you mean to say "Clientside hit detection for Clientside hacks", cos that was what the discussion was about. :cool:
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There is little to no value to "opinions" from people who have no idea what they are talking about and have no experience in the subject matter.

And we are talking about a free mutator. Trying it out requires about 15 minutes of your time. Either these people's time are too precious to try out a simple mutator for 15 minutes or so, or they just love talking out of their ***.
 
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#226
Gaizokubanou said:
There is little to no value to "opinions" from people who have no idea what they are talking about and have no experience in the subject matter.

And we are talking about a free mutator. Trying it out requires about 15 minutes of your time. Either these people's time are too precious to try out a simple mutator for 15 minutes or so, or they just love talking out of their ***.
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And how do you know if they didn't try it out? If someone writes something negative, then it doesn't mean that he/she didn't try it out. Maybe they just don't like the concept of client-side hit detection and can not even be turned around after playing it for 15 minutes.
 
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#227
Ducky said:
And how do you know if they didn't try it out?
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Because they are posting that they didn't try it out?

Nobody here has yet to say "hey you said you tried this and didn't like it, so I think you are lying about trying it out". These guys literally opened their post with "I didn't try this mutator but here is why it fails".

Another tell tale is how they refuse to talk about the actual mutator, but only talking about theory crafting. If you want to "review" something, I think best way to go on about is directly talking about what it is that you are reviewing instead of theorycrafting on worst possible examples that often has no basis on the actual item at hand.
 
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#228
Ducky said:
And how do you know if they didn't try it out? If someone writes something negative, then it doesn't mean that he/she didn't try it out. Maybe they just don't like the concept of client-side hit detection and can not even be turned around after playing it for 15 minutes.
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I haven't seen anyone yet who tried it that didn't like it. It's such a big difference.
 
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#229
10-78 BusterKing said:
I haven't seen anyone yet who tried it that didn't like it. It's such a big difference.
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What I'm just trying to say is that some people just don't like client-side hit detection (maybe they get rashes from it) and you can let them play on a server with the mutator, then after 30 minutes they will still say that they don't like client-side hit detection. It's the same like some people swear that coca-cola is the only tasty cola in the world. If you then give them a coca-cola bottle with some other brand in it, then they will still say that it tasts the best of all. Sure ther opinion is rather worthless, because it's not objective, but it doesn't mean that they do not have a right to speak.
 
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#230
Ducky said:
What I'm just trying to say is that some people just don't like client-side hit detection (maybe they get rashes from it) and you can let them play on a server with the mutator, then after 30 minutes they will still say that they don't like client-side hit detection. It's the same like some people swear that coca-cola is the only tasty cola in the world. If you then give them a coca-cola bottle with some other brand in it, then they will still say that it tasts the best of all. Sure ther opinion is rather worthless, because it's not objective, but it doesn't mean that they do not have a right to speak.
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Having right to speak is different matter from valuing the content of the speech. I don't recall anyone suggesting that we ban people because they didn't like this mutator.
 
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#231
Ducky said:
What I'm just trying to say is that some people just don't like client-side hit detection (maybe they get rashes from it) and you can let them play on a server with the mutator, then after 30 minutes they will still say that they don't like client-side hit detection. It's the same like some people swear that coca-cola is the only tasty cola in the world. If you then give them a coca-cola bottle with some other brand in it, then they will still say that it tasts the best of all. Sure ther opinion is rather worthless, because it's not objective, but it doesn't mean that they do not have a right to speak.
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I don't understand how anyone couldn't like it. The most intense immersive matches I have played thus far on R02 were yesterday evening on a server with the mutator installed. There were about 40 players on spartanovka. I was actually crawling around prone behind fences because I was finally FOR ONCE scared of being shot. Yes I was using prone....something I never do. I knew I'd get my head blown off if I didn't.. That feeling has never happened before for me on vanilla R02.

'This mutator brings the original R0ost 'fear' back to the battlefield.
 
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#233
I'm not a fan of this "bugger you Jack, I'm all right" attitude towards internet infrastructure.

I'm even less a fan of this "I paid for better internet access so I deserve an advantage over you". I could just as easily buy an aimbot hack and claim that since I paid for it, I deserve to have the advantage it brings.

Client-side detection doesn't give an advantage to high-ping players. It just works to reduce (not remove) the disadvantage they already have. Anyone would think some of the low-ping players are afraid that without their ping advantage, their skill won't be enough to stop them getting slaughtered.

Besides, all the client-side detection is doing is making the weapons actually work correctly. To hit a target sprinting across your front in real life, you do not need to aim feet in advance. If the game makes you do that in order to hit (thanks to lag), then it's simply not realistic.

This has quite a lot of negative gameplay effects, even on a server that only has low-ping players:
  • Sprinting & zig-zagging in the open is relatively safe, which makes run-and-gun far more effective than it should be, damaging teamwork
  • It is much harder to hit crossing targets than it should be, which means the real-world ideal LMG deployment (enfilade fire from defilade position) doesn't work
  • Defensive positions are not as effective as they should be, since static targets are easy to hit but moving targets are much harder to hit than they should be - so both teams end up attacking, instead of one attacking and one defending
 
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#234
Golf33 said:
I'm not a fan of this "bugger you Jack, I'm all right" attitude towards internet infrastructure.

I'm even less a fan of this "I paid for better internet access so I deserve an advantage over you". I could just as easily buy an aimbot hack and claim that since I paid for it, I deserve to have the advantage it brings.

Client-side detection doesn't give an advantage to high-ping players. It just works to reduce (not remove) the disadvantage they already have. Anyone would think some of the low-ping players are afraid that without their ping advantage, their skill won't be enough to stop them getting slaughtered.

Besides, all the client-side detection is doing is making the weapons actually work correctly. To hit a target sprinting across your front in real life, you do not need to aim feet in advance. If the game makes you do that in order to hit (thanks to lag), then it's simply not realistic.


This has quite a lot of negative gameplay effects, even on a server that only has low-ping players:
  • Sprinting & zig-zagging in the open is relatively safe, which makes run-and-gun far more effective than it should be, damaging teamwork
  • It is much harder to hit crossing targets than it should be, which means the real-world ideal LMG deployment (enfilade fire from defilade position) doesn't work
  • Defensive positions are not as effective as they should be, since static targets are easy to hit but moving targets are much harder to hit than they should be - so both teams end up attacking, instead of one attacking and one defending
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Great post!
 
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#235
Mekhazzio, what I told you earlier on the server, how I feel the pistols got more out of this then rifles. I figured it was cause rifle bullets usually hit where you aim, but pistol ones don't, and with the icons showing where your bullet hit, it helped a lot to predict how you need to adjust your aim with pistol for next shot to hit the target.

Anyway no good test could be done this whole day. I guess no one likes to play on unranked servers, so dunno where will we have a chance for a real test, 40+ people with pings from 50-300 for an hour or two.
 
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