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A thought on ''slow'' development, as some people call it.

Drassel

Grizzled Veteran
Jun 7, 2013
435
3
Canada
Alright, I just wanted to pass a point. I'm just a normal gamer like everybody who happens to like the Killing Floor franchise since it released as a full game in 2009, and now 2015's Killing Floor 2.

I've been reading the forums alot these days and I've noticed that people were increasingly complaining about things they call ''slow development'' of the game, about how the game is ''dying'' due to lack of content, and that TWI is lying and purposely keeps extending the wait till the next update.

I have only ten words to respond to this.

STOP. FREAKING. TELLING. ****. ABOUT. THINGS. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. ABOUT.

Now before anybody gets offended because I shouted, let me explain myself.

Because of your impatience and irritation, you are basically creating very negative, unfounded rumors over a thing you have no idea of how it works. You want more things right now, without considering how much work it takes behind all that. That is a very selfish way of thinking.

I've followed Tripwire for enough time to know that they may not be always right in time, but in these case it has always meant that it was because they thought about a new cool innovation to work on at last second, and as OCD as they are, they preferred to spend more time on it to polish it before release, SO THAT WE'LL HAVE A BRAND NEW COOL THING THAT WE'LL ALL LOVE.
How many companies do you know that do that? I beg you. How many companies do you know that actually work their asses off to serve cool stuff to their community? I'm not talking about weapon camos and 2$ DLCs, I'm talking about random new innovations and stuff most of the time for free!

By saying that they aren't in touch with the community, that they don't care at all, not only does this prove that you don't know them for as long as I and other oldies do, but you're also spitting in their back while they're busy creating that cool stuff that'll make you forget all the wait next month. I find this extremely disrespectful towards, once again, one of the rare companies that still takes their time to make incredibly high quality content as they could've simply not done it and just served another generic shooter with monsters that eventually want to eat your face off. And charge 80$ on it, with 45$ for a season pass to get access to all perks DLCs, because F-u that's why.

I don't pretend to be a dev, or to be anybody that know them more intimately than you. I'm just using my own experience with this company, and I can say that it is the only one that flawlessly earned my trust troughout the years in today's gaming industry.

I hope that whoever feels aimed at this post, think a bit about what they're doing, think about what Tripwire served so far, compare it to what other companies served in that much amount of time, think about the highly detailed guns, the gore, the overall good balancing of the game for its age (still acknowledging the bugs and balance issues found so far), then look at other games produced by AAA companies who charge $65+ for a 200+ team blockbuster. I can cite more than four games last year that were huge deceptions, and at least two companies that just serve the same crap over and over again because they care more about the money that their community. None of them are TWI.

The game's been out for only 2 months, damn. This may seem long for you but the game is just starting. As they said, they are only 50 in this company and they have to make priorities. With the next update, they'll be revamping alot of the initial stuff in the game. They can't just drop everything in and expect it to work!
Also as I said, they're adding alot of new unplanned content, like knife stabbing animation, an even more complex customization menu and completely new perk skills! That's alot of coding.

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Ah, the slow process of learning two things about the gaming community and actually developing games. It takes a lot of time and talent to get working content out and even longer to convince the consumer that it takes a lot of time and talent to get out working content.

But when you throw in the idea that people paid for something, they seem to be even less negotiable about the lack of content, even if told it will be updated over time.
 
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The time complaints would not be a issue if they hadn't been paid for the work already. Just like in real life when a proposal is made and you pay for it , you want to see progress. People want a time frame so they can stop coming back to find nothing has really changed. Even if Early access is another year, people want to know how long they are in this EA ride. This year in particular has a slew of heavy hitting AAA games (FALLOUT 4 BABY YEAH!) on the way, killing floor 2 being one of them. If access to killing floor beta was a pre-order incentive , no one could argue because the full amount of money has not been paid. There would still be a opportunity to back out. The fan base is simply looking for Tripwire to deliver on what was promised , what we spent our money to get. If tripwire really wants to calm the masses they can publicly offer refunds to anyone that wants out. No financial vestment , no reason to care until the game is released properly.


SIDE NOTE: I know the stakes are high on this sequel. Killing Floor laid the ground work for many of other projects to come about. KF2 being released on consoles needs to work flawlessly out of the box. I get that. If there was ever a time to tweak and test ideas its now. Let us shift through muck and help Tripwire find a gem to stardom. This should be a win win instead of a win wait situation.
 
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Ah, the slow process of learning two things about the gaming community and actually developing games. It takes a lot of time and talent to get working content out and even longer to convince the consumer that it takes a lot of time and talent to get out working content.

But when you throw in the idea that people paid for something, they seem to be even less negotiable about the lack of content, even if told it will be updated over time.

You're adding negativity with this thread, nothing more. Relax, the same way you want those naysayers to relax.
The time complaints would not be a issue if they hadn't been paid for the work already [...] Just like in real life when a proposal is made and you pay for it , you want to see progress. [...] People want a time frame so they can stop coming back to find nothing has really changed. If access to killing floor beta was a pre-order incentive , no one could argue because the full amount of money has not been paid. The fan base is simply looking for Tripwire to deliver on what was promised , what we spent our money to get. [...]

SIDE NOTE: I know the stakes are high on this sequel. Killing Floor laid the ground work for many of other projects to come about. [...] If there was ever a time to tweak and test ideas its now. Let us shift through muck and help Tripwire find a gem to stardom. This should be a win win instead of a win wait situation.
I understand that people expect quality and content for what they paid, and that there is a lack of confidence for EA games, but I think this is getting overboard when people start talking trash and request things right now, no matter if finished or not.
I don't think I'm bringing any more negativity than the kind of people I'm addressing to. I can admit that I am being rude and speaking a bit out of anger because I'm getting tired of those people acting like they deserve everything. Maybe it's because I've always been a patient man. that I've worked for everything I have, so when I see people asking for something right now without seizing all the work it takes behind it, it just grinds my gear.

I've been thinking that maybe TI staff could make some videos for their WWAUT showing in-editor unfinished content that they can allow themselves to show (animations, 3D-models). I think this could open some eyes on how game developing looks like before achieving its final release-ready form.
 
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Haters gonna hate. Remember not everyone in the community is impatient as you may claim to have but it's increasing in amounts indeed. Us, the minority, we do know how this all works but it's not all flawless you see ;) ?

As the development may seem slow it will come out in very high details. Basically I do not like maps for as much as being only a giant box, a light, some spawns and some other geometric stuff around with only one trader location. See Minecraft.

You can tell these impatient people may never have worked for themselves and if they did, they only did bad. Common sense should have grown during that. :cool:

Last but not least: Don't blame me for loving decent shooters, where you can aim down the sights, prone and pretty much like participating in war games. I'm talking about COD and BF :D
 
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OP

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The updates ARE slow.

The devs don't share enough information.

Here is the WEEKLY updates for DayZ that developers do EVERY WEEK explaining what they are doing. TWI should do at least that. It won't take long to type in a few sentences about what you are doing.

http://dayz.com/blog/status-report-30-jun-2015

Also they have experimental branch that updates allmost weekly with tweaks and things for testing keeping the hardcore fans bussy looking for that new coloured hoodie.

I don't know how big the next update is going to be, but if we take TWI words that the last update that had 1 map was a big update, then the nex one should be HUGE or even bigger ...
 
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STOP. FREAKING. TELLING. ****. ABOUT. THINGS. YOU. DON'T. KNOW. ABOUT.

All we know is what we can see. It's been over 2 months, and so far all we've received as new content is a single map and no substantial improvements to the game.

Say what you want about the quality of the game, but there's still a nagging feeling that the final game is many months away and that early access was way premature.
 
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Last night I loadded up KF2 for the first time in about a month and realised that there were 11 HoE servers available at around 10pm using a pretty standard no full, no empty and no password protected servers. Of those games only three had acceptable (less than 120ms) latency and were all well into the mid game so I didn't feel like being 'that guy' who joins on wave 6 and begs for money.

If TWI just said 'next update by the end of July' I'd be fine with that. Updates are slow but the lack of information is the worst because it invalidates feedback if big issues like zed teleporting aren't (or maybe they are) being looked at. Of course the stock response will be 'well if we provide deadlines and don't meet them people will be pissed.' So double the deadline for all I care; think it'll take two weeks for the next update to be done? Say it'll be four and if you can't meet that then there's a real problem with organisation and planning.
 
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You're adding negativity with this thread, nothing more. Relax, the same way you want those naysayers to relax.

This. It's like shouting "RELAX, NOW!". Some complaints are legitimate, some are not. It doesn't help making threads like this and shouting "Stop complaining, it'll be fine!".

It's completely in TWI's hands to satisfy the community here on the forums (admittedly the 1% by them), or at least the majority of it.
 
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OP



The updates ARE slow.

The devs don't share enough information.

Here is the WEEKLY updates for DayZ that developers do EVERY WEEK explaining what they are doing. TWI should do at least that. It won't take long to type in a few sentences about what you are doing.

http://dayz.com/blog/status-report-30-jun-2015

Also they have experimental branch that updates allmost weekly with tweaks and things for testing keeping the hardcore fans bussy looking for that new coloured hoodie.

I don't know how big the next update is going to be, but if we take TWI words that the last update that had 1 map was a big update, then the nex one should be HUGE or even bigger ...

Lol, bringing up DayZ in a thread like this. Who cares for weekly or even daily updates if it takes the devs literally years to implement anything?
 
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The updates ARE slow.

The devs don't share enough information.

Here is the WEEKLY updates for DayZ that developers do EVERY WEEK explaining what they are doing. TWI should do at least that. It won't take long to type in a few sentences about what you are doing.

There's been only one update and the next one is promised to be a huge one. That's not a very good sampling if you want to make a good update release average time. DayZ is not the best game to backup your arguments about regular updates and transparency.

Can't hand wave the expenditure of money. Refunds for the impatient. The rest of the community can wait as they see fit. In the future Tripwire can beta test the last 3 months of tweaking after the game is actually made. I can wait. I have games to play and money to spend else where,but not everyone is as fortunate as me.

Same here. I have plenty of games to play, and IRL work to do to be busy for months.

All we know is what we can see. It's been over 2 months, and so far all we've received as new content is a single map and no substantial improvements to the game.

Say what you want about the quality of the game, but there's still a nagging feeling that the final game is many months away and that early access was way premature.

Okay, they could've released the game later, but then people would've been complaining that
the game was ready to play and should've been released earlier.

Last night I loadded up KF2 for the first time in about a month and realised that there were 11 HoE servers available at around 10pm using a pretty standard no full, no empty and no password protected servers.

If TWI just said 'next update by the end of July' I'd be fine with that. Updates are slow but the lack of information is the worst because it invalidates feedback if big issues like zed teleporting aren't (or maybe they are) being looked at. Of course the stock response will be 'well if we provide deadlines and don't meet them people will be pissed.' So double the deadline for all I care; think it'll take two weeks for the next update to be done? Say it'll be four and if you can't meet that then there's a real problem with organisation and planning.
Not alot of people play suicidal or HoE because they are too hard for the common gamer.
According to one of their WWAUT, zed teleporting is an issue they are working on for the next update.

This. It's like shouting "RELAX, NOW!". Some complaints are legitimate, some are not. It doesn't help making threads like this and shouting "Stop complaining, it'll be fine!".

I have no problem when a complaint in constructive and seeks to help with refining the game. I have a problem when the complaint is not much useful as to serve destructive things like unfounded rumors/accusations, non-stop harassment, threats, morale-grind, etc.
 
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my 2 cents.

Unreal engine games are a fickle, tricky mistress.

Minor "Experimental" tweaks could cause 500mb patches that add absolutely nothing to the game that is new.

If you want quicker updates, the next major update would have to make you completely and totally redownload the game after they split all the minor component files out into individual modules instead of being combined into larger packages, which would crap on loading times.

Look at DC Universe online, for instance. that game is over THIRTY GIGS and minor balance patches are 700mb+ affairs.

Basically, tripwire is trying to get the most they can into a single patch, because if you're going to have to download half a gig, they'd rather have that half a gig give you a lot to process over making you download it....and there being nothing new.

With the billion F2P games on steam, many of which are quite good, i'm sure you can find a way to entertain yourself until the next update. Or just go to KF1 and brush up on your Burning/blasting skills.

Because i personally, as someone who works in unreal engine a lot, would rather see them polish the hell out of this update (which is 2 maps, 2 perks, and QoL/Balance changes) and then switch to faster updates after. (1map or 1perk & QOL with regular WWAUT Posts)

would it still take a while to update? Yes. But the scale would be quicker and we'd learn how many people regret asking for it in about 2 weeks.
 
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Problems I see:

1. People don't understand game development. It's not just a matter of 'try harder'. Fixing problems and adding features can't be done with brute force.

2. People get ancy because of the lack of info. TW has stated many times that they don't want to share lots of information because people get upset if a deadline is not met or if content is changed/removed. So it's better not to tell people what they're planning before it's more solidified. Sure, they could be more open. But I don't know how open they could be without giving away things they don't want to. And giving away just enough for TW preference might not be enough for people.

And like OP I don't claim to be in the devs inner circle or anything (though I did play KF2 with Yoshiro one time :D)
 
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my 2 cents.
-lots of wise and fact-based words-

truth-has-been-spoken.jpg


You are more than right. UE is a bit over-complicated when it comes to adding new content. It is only logical that they prefer to make the best out of every update.

I also expected that it would take quite some time after the release before the first big update, then that they'd switch to a faster pace after the biggest job is done.

Remember folks, that content updates always take more time than maintenance updates.

And like OP I don't claim to be in the devs inner circle or anything (though I did play KF2 with Yoshiro one time :D)
Tssk tssk, now you're cool eh? ;)

Seriously jelly tho...
 
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-snip-
Remember folks, that content updates always take more time than maintenance updates

Something else i thought of after i posted.

People ask for WIP Perks (even i suggested it at one point, kinda regret it) But then i realized this:

It has to work as well as the others.

Imagine if they added demo, but it was missing all but the T4? or they added firebug, but all it had was the 9mm and generic flamer?

It wouldn't be playable. you literally wouldn't be able to contribute fully to a team.

So for them to even release a perk, not only does the tree have to work, but every weapon has to work and be feature complete. and at that point you might as well finish all the textures/icons/models because people would have to download that full-sized patch -TWICE- in the long run if you didn't.

just to give people an idea of why we don't see WIP Perks or the like.

Edit: Not to mention if they'd have to make a major rebalance after release, which would also force a full redownload, because welcome to flavor coun- i mean, unreal engine.
 
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