A note about player movement and momentum

[Filo90]

I don't mean this to sound confrontational - but how many times do TWI have to repeat that themselves? Ramm has said several times in this thread - and indeed Yosh has stated the same elsewhere - that RO Classic will arrive as the Beta client, will be played on servers only running the beta server code, and will be tweaked based on community feedback with that beta. I'm really not sure why people aren't reading these bits of the TWI posts Tunnel vision maybe?

I just want to be sure

 

[Krobar]

When Marines get bored - YouTube

Okay, not quite the same thing, but a good laugh all the same

You solved the age old question: "What happens when a dumbass hits an inanimate object?"

 

[tofupunk]

The bullet cracks do need to be a lot louder. I hear them sometimes, but they are way too quiet.

Kudos on all the response from the devs lately by the way.

 

[Golf33]

Another thing I want to mention, is people are talking about wanting bullet whizzes/snaps when people are firing at them. Unless there is a bug that I am unaware of, this is exactly what happens. When bullets are whizzing by you in game the game plays very loud whizzes and snaps along with shaking your point of aim and playing a camera effect.

Not for me. I do get some shaking of the point of aim but the sound effects are almost missing.

Incoming fire is very quiet, even when it's passing or impacting very close by.

I'll post a bug report in the appropriate forum since it's clearly not the intended behaviour.

 

[MrHello]

Yeah, the entire game's sound volume for many different sounds seems to be off.

Even as far as to the direction of where sounds are coming from seems to be off.

 

[kalle]

Another thing I want to mention, is people are talking about wanting bullet whizzes/snaps when people are firing at them. Unless there is a bug that I am unaware of, this is exactly what happens. When bullets are whizzing by you in game the game plays very loud whizzes and snaps along with shaking your point of aim and playing a camera effect.

I never hear these, at least they're not loud. I never know from what direction I'm taking fire from either (if it's not obvious from knowing the usual sniper/mg spots on the map). Might be intended but it's not very good for gameplay IMO (it might be realistic to be disoriented when under fire, but this is one of those occasions where gameplay is more important for me. It's nice to get feedback so you can adapt your tactics and react properly). In RO:O and DH I never had a problem with this.

The only time I notice the suppression is when it enters a minute long black&white phase now and then (bug I guess, depth of field is enabled). It won't dissapear no matter how well I hide. So I guess there might be some things with this system that is not working as intended.

 

[RobfromEssex]

Thank you for your answer

Look at my signature you big fat sheep




This is ElPresidente aka |OuTLawS|Shemathesheep| in a tank xD

 

[Kerc Kasha]

One thing that needs to be added - not just to classic mode - is a greater delay between being able to shoot and sprinting. Right now the player is able to instantly begin shooting after running full pelt. Now in reality if you were holding onto the gun you'd probably be able to shoot right away(you'd even be able to shoot while sprinting probably) but that's ignoring the fact that you probably wouldn't run around with the gun's safety off and you probably wouldn't have terrible trigger discipline as you'd more likely shoot yourself doing this.

Ignoring all realism arguments - the issue is that it gives a player no reason to not sprint everywhere. The delay is so small that it's usually beneficial to sprint constantly until you find a target and then stop to fire - the delay barely exists so it would have taken just as long if you were jogging.

I don't mind the raising ironsights speed it's just the lack of delay of 'sprinting -> firing' that's a real problem. It's very bad for gameplay

 

[luciferintears]

Yeah, the entire game's sound volume for many different sounds seems to be off.

Even as far as to the direction of where sounds are coming from seems to be off.

Yeah, except for that incessant orchestral music blaring the same 20second loop throughout the whole match

Well of course it depends on how fast I'm running and on what kind of terrain I'm trying to stop, but from RO2 speed sprint? About a second or two for stopping, tops. RO2 characters take 0.7 seconds to stop from full sprint. Might be a tad bit too fast, but definitely not a huge issue. If I want my character to skate around on ice, I play Tribes.

lol tribes.

In RO2 im assuming the sprint button makes your character sprint at FULL speed; essentially the speed someone would use to cross featureless terrain while under gunfire...so thats pretty fast.

Running at those speeds and then snapping up your ironsights in .5 nanoseconds (with perfect accuracy i might add) whilst stopping on a dime is a bit excessive, and in my opinion destroys the game more so than any other bug/feature in this game.

It turns the game into a twitch shooter, where people will be sprinting around in a building armed with their k98. Now i havent played in a few months but when i did play, all i ever did was run around with a bolt and scored pretty well.

- Perhaps longer pause to stand up, crouch, prone when the stamina is low
We'll have to look into this one. What do other people think about this?

I may be alone on this but i rather liked the ARMA2 method of changing stance, where it played out an animation and took a few seconds to get into prone or stand up.

 

[smokeythebear]

The movement is the same but that maps are very different in layout. Maybe not all are smaller but the distances between objectives and spawning is pretty much halved, most maps feel like a meeting engagement rather then one side actually defending.

In that way you sort of have more freedom of movement, but also a lot more random spawn camping.

 

[Fafnir_6]

1 - No breath-control
Breath control is realistic and a key feature of the game and likely won't be removed. Sway affects from stamina, etc will be increased however.

2 - Perhaps longer pause to stand up, crouch, prone when the stamina is low
We'll have to look into this one. What do other people think about this?

3 - No prototype weapons
Some of the "very" rare weapons won't be there. But the MKB and AVT are still planned to be there, but in more limited numbers. The STG was in RO1, and the MKB will fill that role for RO Classic. Additionally, without starting yet another flame war on the subject, no one yet has proven that the MkB wasn't there. Our burden of proof for including a weapon in Red Orchestra (for the mod, RO1, and RO2) was that someone had to prove that it WASN'T there. So for RO classic mode we'll stick with the same rules we applied to the original game.

4 - No upgrading/leveling
Player will still be able to get ranking and XP, and the mode will be ranked. The ranking and XP will have no effects on their weapon handling or player capabilities however. In this way new players that might like the RO Classic gameplay will be urged to try it out, without being discouraged by not gaining any experience.

5 - Native command voices by default! And ability to read them clearly like it was in RO1
We're looking at making this an option. It will be up to the player to enable it. And I'm not sure what you mean by the ability to read them clearly.

6 - No bandaging
That's the current plan.

Great post Ramm, thanks for sharing such a large amount of info on the new mode. I do have some questions/coments, however, relating to the items listed in the quote above.

1) Breath control is realistic now, I agree, but it should only be held for a maximum of 30 seconds or so. People can hold their breath for longer, yes but you start to get jittery if you hold it for a longer time. Alternately, you could have breath control on for >1 minute but with sway becoming more pronouced after 30 seconds or so.

2) Please add this.

3) While I agree that there MAY have been an MKB/AVT at Stalingrad. Many RO2 players will prefer to play with these weapons disabled. Could you at least add a server-side option to disable assault rifles? You could have them enabled by default. RO2 players would like to have the option for an MKB/AVT-free game, I think. Adding this option would make everyone happy. Their absence also won't have as bad an effect on team balance as you might think.

4) Removing stat buffs for RO-classic is a good move. When you say the really rare weapons will be absent, do you include the rare loadouts for a common weapon? MP-40II doublemags, MG34 double mag, MN1895 silencer come to mind... I think the other main issue is whether you will be able to select weapon upgrades (sniper scope on the MKB is a perfect example of this--I don't want it). Also RO1 had a "fix Bayonnettes" button with animation. It's a largely aesthetic feature but it does wonders for immersion (plus if could make the rifles a tiny bit less accurate with bayo attached , it would be awesome).

5) Please put this option in all RO2 modes (not just classic). With an additional option to add the subtitles found in RO1 (I think that is what was meant about readability).

6) I have no problem with bandaging but I think it happens too fast in its current state. Being able to bandage a teammate would be awesome. Generally-speaking, bandaging ishould take time (>30 seconds), it should be not stealthy (wounded person yelling in pain) and make you vulnerable (maybe add a zoom component (simulating concentration on bandaging), locked at the ground if bandaging self or teammate being bandaged). This would decrease sitautional awareness and increase vulnerablilty

In any case, I look forward to RO-Classic and the big content patch (here's also hoping for a PzIIIJ1).

Will the MG tracer ricochets from RO1 be making an appearance in RO2 (it would benefit all game modes, immersion-wise). Bullets won't need to ricochet, just make it a visual enhancement)?

I also have one last question, as tank commander in RO-Classic, will you spawn outside the tank with tanks being fully enter/exitable like in Darkest Hour (no insta-exit but having to move to a crew position with hatch and then animating out of it)? Wehrmacht panzer crew have the most awesome uniforms but you never see them .

Cheers and thanks,

Fafnir_6

Edit: please disregard point #1

 

[Devil_Inside]

Omg, it's not BREATH HOLDING, it's BREATH CONTROL. Can't you people hear your character breathing while holding the BREATH CONTROL button?

And it should stay!

 

[Fafnir_6]

Right...sorry. I guess I was wrong about that. Leave as is, in that case.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

 

[Golf33]

Breath control is a real-world technique, but the RO2 imlementation is both too easy and too effective to have a real-world feel to it.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

since we are on this topic.


Bullets dont always go zip.

If the bullet is going super sonic, then it has a small sonic boom behind it. These are heard as loud snaps. This boom disapates into a whiz when you are further away. It also never generates a whiz in the first place if the bullet was subsonic.

Just watch some combat videos from afghanistan, or any other videos of bullets coming close to the camera. The snaps are LOUD.

There are a few benefits to these snaps. They tell you bullets are coming close to you. They scare the living sh*t out of you ( free surpression points ). And they appease realism fans like myself that appreciate the details.

 

[Sensemann]

- No prototype weapons
Some of the "very" rare weapons won't be there. But the MKB and AVT are still planned to be there, but in more limited numbers. The STG was in RO1, and the MKB will fill that role for RO Classic. Additionally, without starting yet another flame war on the subject, no one yet has proven that the MkB wasn't there. Our burden of proof for including a weapon in Red Orchestra (for the mod, RO1, and RO2) was that someone had to prove that it WASN'T there. So for RO classic mode we'll stick with the same rules we applied to the original game.

First off, I want to say that I very much appreciate your input lately, as well as the whole team's.

The points you bring regarding the realism mode are all good, except the above quoted. I find it a bit odd that you ask for proof that the Mkb wasn't in Stalingrad. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Finding some proof for it to have been in Stalingrad?
I mean it's much harder for me to proof that I haven't stolen your lunchbox, while it should be easier to proof that it was Yoshiro, since it's under his desk. I think you got my meaning.

If you check a bit online, you will quickly find that neither museum in Stalingrad has an Mkb on display, nor are there any weapon loadout info that state the Mkb being issued to troops around that area. Of course, I might have just not found them (yet).

Anyway, personally, I don't mind if it's in the game, but it should be a very very rare weapon. As someone stated before: 1 Mkb for the axis team. The sheer amount of Mkbs circulating on the German AND the Russian team rolleyes is simply killing the immersion. I have been playing Barracks yesterday and had the feeling the German command decided to speed up field-testing the weapon and simply distributed the Mkb to the russians as well...

 

[SQBsam]

since we are on this topic.


Bullets dont always go zip.

If the bullet is going super sonic, then it has a small sonic boom behind it. These are heard as loud snaps. This boom disapates into a whiz when you are further away. It also never generates a whiz in the first place if the bullet was subsonic.

Just watch some combat videos from afghanistan, or any other videos of bullets coming close to the camera. The snaps are LOUD.

There are a few benefits to these snaps. They tell you bullets are coming close to you. They scare the living sh*t out of you ( free surpression points ). And they appease realism fans like myself that appreciate the details.

Indeed, regarding the sound of rounds:
Subsonic munitions sound like zips or whizzes, supersonic rounds make cracks and pops. From a distance the zip is inaudible, but the cracking or a rifle round looses some treble, retaining a loud pop that can echo off mountains and buildings.

 

[Nezzer]

Breath control is realistic, but they way it's implemented in the game is not. Stamina has no effect over it, and every time you press shift you end up with no sway for a couple of second of more, so all you have to do to keep your weapon with zero sway for as long as you want is releasing and pressing shift again. Breath control should be available only when you have at least 50% of stamina left.

 

[KrvKrvavu]

- Bigger credit to MG gunners
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think the other changes made to the game may have the effect you are looking for. I personally find MGing in RO2 MUCH more effecting than in RO1 if you use them properly. The most important thing is to actually use the MG to suppress the enemy, as they have a very difficult time to shoot you when their view is bouncing about from suppression fire.

-

Dont get me wrong, MGing is better in RO2, but some things like "cant deploy" are seriosly affecting proper use of MG. It denys us deploying on a good spot where MG is well protected like in RO1. In RO2 my non moveing head is 100% dead head. Im not takling about enemy who is supressed, they will die or run avay, but everybody else who see my muzzle flash, even with a MP40 at some 100+ meters will kill MG with no trouble.
In RO1 because more sway they couldnt kill MG with first shot, especialy with a PPsH or MP40, and that gave MG time to respond to fire of retreat.
On some maps in RO1 we had to call for sniper support to kill MG..
Another problem is hititng enemies. For instance playing as a Russian on Spatranovka, church has fallen amd Germans are running to flank Russians to left and right poping out from behind the church wall. Im lying down near some of those mini hills with ruined chimneys, at 120 meters from germans runing sideways from me, ping is 100-120 in 64 slot server and i cant hit them properly, i hit 1 out of three, supress them, some of them bandage and go on. And im not that terible shot. Sometimes it happens that even in a point blank range i suprise someone with mounted MG, fire five rounds in them, and they kill me and walk avay..
That is all on a smaller maps with fights at some 100-150 meters, and the question for me is, how will MG do it role at larger maps, where figting will be at lets say 300 meters and my MG cant hit moveing enemies...

To make long story short :
-More sway
-Better hit detection, an other tehnicall stuff related to that - im no expert
-Movement speed sholud be little less than now, lets say 85%
-No more "cant deploy MG"
-No more "run&gun" with MG - right click then fire like in RO1
-Find the way to make sniper more efficiant and dangerous again

 

[dazman76]

I have been playing Barracks yesterday and had the feeling the German command decided to speed up field-testing the weapon and simply distributed the Mkb to the russians as well...

Gave me a chuckle this morning, thanks Sense

I'd also like to chime in with this, and say that I like the idea of limiting the assault rifles to 1 or 2 per team. The other autos are perfectly good weapons too, so we should be thinking about the total number of autos on the field rather than focussing on the MKB/AVT alone. Any change to this would (should) change engagement patterns for the better, and hopefully promote longer-ranged firefights even on the smaller maps.