Revised Firebug Suggestions

[DocDave]

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)" --Walt Whitman

Over time my ideas for what would be a good "fix" to the Firebug have changed as I've had time to think and learn about what changes to the game have brought the current situation about. As a result, my opinions have changed enough that I felt I should make a second thread. Here are my thoughts, 1. being part of my old suggestion.


1. Besides grenades, all of a Firebug's explosives should be incendiary and do fire damage instead of shrapnel damage, and set things on fire. This will result in a small increase to damage but most importantly increase tactical options by allowing use of the Firebug's explosives at closer range.

If balance is an issue, they could be restricted to, for instance 75% fire damage, 25% shrapnel, etc, so some self-damage remains. Range could also be limited. Cost reduction on these items might be useful as well.


2. The current military-style liquid-fuel Flamethrower should be a Firebug's best weapon. This type of weapon is the archetypal flame-based weapon, period. However, the current KF Flamethrower needs to be brought up to par with the other Tier 3 primary weapons. The most fool-proof solution is an increase to damage as well as an increase in price. This is the most important matter, along with the next point.


3. A civilian-style gas-fuel flamethrower should be implemented into the game as a light-weight, low-tier flamethrower. This style of FT typically projects a wide cone of flame in front of it, but is more limited in range and does not leave burning residue of it's own, making it's damage-over-time inferior to the military type. A Firebug should be able to carry both of these weapons at the same time.

Note on these types of flamethrowers: Much harder to set one's self on fire with them, since there is no splashing, burning liquid.


These three changes could bring the FB back in line with the other perks, as well as give him much-needed weapon variety. This comes in the form of a secondary perk weapon as well as a number of other choices he could work with more effectively. It also does this without using fantasy weapons, or questionable "weapons" like flare guns, etc.

 

[HaTeMe]

I would support this idea.

Altho, I still like the flaregun too.

 

[Shambler]

This is one of the only feasible ideas for the firebug in my opinion. Just making the firebug's existing weapon better with a price increase and adding a lower tier flamethrower would make the perk far more effective without detaching from what the firebug is designed to do, low consistent damage over multiple specimens.

 

[Zerethon]

Revised:

1. Firebugs get incendiary explosives that dont lose any damage (EG: Can still damage doors proper) which would be a great upgrade to the existing +fire effect on nades

2. Making the current 10-weight flamer T3 and doubling it's damage would be a great boon to firebugs in line with the below

3. a mid-tier gas FT with shorter range and damage equal to the current flamer as the starting weapon at 5+6 (6 is armor + Gas flamer) is a perfect idea, with a weight of 5-7 blocks and less ammo than the normal flamer (30% Less?)

Complete rebalance, More usefulness, more damage

 

[Undedd Jester]

1) I disagree, his grenades are a standard armament for every player, however the firebugs are converted to be more useful for his perk. Other weapons designed for other classes should not get special ammuntion solely for the firebug

2) I don't think the flamethrower is underpowered at all, I merely think that certain other perks are overpowered. (Not going to turn this into a SS rant thread like everything else). Plus alot of players complain that the game is too easy, but I think the Firebug is a shining example of a well balanced perk. At level 6 I cut through large groups with ease, even on suicidal. Stalkers ,clot, bloats, sirens and crawlers stand no chance, gorefasts have little chance and only Scrakes and Fleshpounds pose a real problem. The Husk can make things awkward, but the Firebugs resistance and the ability to carry a deagle or something mkaes him more than capapable of dropping them as well.

3) I dont think I'd have a problem with this idea, a smaller cheaper flamethrower to allow low level perks to get some fire damage under their belt in the early waves would make it alot easier to build up to the more expensive flamethrower.

I persoanlly reckon the best improvement is some kind of extinguisher of flames for the firebug. I've said this I think in 3 threads now, but noone ever comments on it But it would give the firebug a key role in the team, offering a support role as well as a crowd control role. It would also make him much more funtional in friendly fire servers.

 

[DocDave]

2) I don't think the flamethrower is underpowered at all, I merely think that certain other perks are overpowered. [...] Plus alot of players complain that the game is too easy, but I think the Firebug is a shining example of a well balanced perk.

This is simply a thread about Firebug changes. I agree with you that the T3 weapons are overpowered, but I can't also take into account all the things I think should also be changed, that would make this unnecessarily complicated. Also, overpowered/underpowered is relative. It's just as feasible to buff Zerk/FB/Zeds as it is to nerf T3 weapons... (And if you nerf T3, do you also nerf the T2 weapons so T3 is still better? And then what about T1? You want T2 to be better than T1, right?) These are just the changes I feel are needed to bring the FB up to par in the current state of the game.

 

[DocDave]

I persoanlly reckon the best improvement is some kind of extinguisher of flames for the firebug. I've said this I think in 3 threads now, but noone ever comments on it

Probably because this would be a fairly trivial addition to his arsenal. The most effective perks are always the ones that can kill best in a game that's all about killing. Why extinguish the Husk's fires when you can just pop him in the head with the M14 - no more fires period. Why put out your own flames in FF when you can just take the M14, kill faster, and not set your teammates on fire... etc.

 

[DocDave]

Deleted post? Oh well, here's my response anyway.

Spoiler!

There are two distinct types of flamethrowers which behave in completely different manners. One spews a gaseous cone of flames directly in front of itself in an arc, the other shoots a streaming jet of burning liquid far away. It's much like the difference between a sawed off shotgun and a high caliber hunting rifle.

The proposed abilities in 1-4 and 6 in your "upgrade" idea would already be realistically reflected in the large difference between these two real-world flamethrower types.

As far as 5 goes, there's already at least one thread for letting players use the Husk weapon...

 

[Undedd Jester]

The most effective perks are always the ones that can kill best in a game that's all about killing. Why extinguish the Husk's fires when you can just pop him in the head with the M14 - no more fires period.

Because the M14 is overpowered is why youd take the M14 sharpshooter over the firebug extinguisher. Its the same reason noone plays firebug, because the sharpie is too good. Not gonna get into a Sharpshooter nerf debate, but the point of an extinguisher would give the firebug a good way of supporitng his team. A Husk in 1 hit drains almost 40% of aplayers armour on high difficulities, so even if the Sharpie were to pop the husk, the damage over time would still have a substantial effect.

The abilitiy to put out the fire would save teamamtes money on their armour, and make it easier to survive the round. The game isn't just about killing, its supposed to be about teamwork, it shouldn't be "The most effective perks are the ones that are the best at killing". Look at TF2, the classes that usually have the highest points are the Medics and Engineers who heal and suppport their teammates.

Why put out your own flames in FF when you can just take the M14, kill faster, and not set your teammates on fire... etc.

Again because the SS is overpowered, and tbh I've seen plenty of times where a sharpshooter has nailed the medic or berserker by accident and killed him in 1 shot. Firebugs do have a hard time in FF mode, but the ability to recover from a mistake would make them alot more playable.


Overall point - the damage on the firebug is well balanced, and the commando (despite maybe being able to carry a little too much ammo) is the same, since he has a difficult time killing Scrakes and Fleshpounds as well. I still maintain explosives should not be made more usuable for the firebug because it would simply make HIM overpowered as well. However a I would not disagree to having a low damage cheap cone flamethrower as well. As is its a little hard for low level firebugs to buy up.

 

[DocDave]

Overall point - the damage on the firebug is well balanced

In principle, I agree with some of what you say, but this is just blatantly incorrect. If you play FB you will notice that he is the only perk left that can't deal with the FP in any shape, form or fashion nowadays.

It gets a little ridiculous to say, "well, everyone else is just overpowered." Hogwash. The flamethrower needs a boost, big time.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Meh moot point, I say everyone else needs a nerf

 

[CupofMud]

2&3) Damn right. That's what I've always figured would the best way to fix Firebug, add a lesser tiered flamethrower as an excuse to buff the original flamethrower's capabilities.

I've always been partial to the aerosol can and lighter idea myself, but I'm sure there are other ideas out there for a lesser tiered weapon. There'd be nothing like laying waste to a crowd of specimens with good ol' Bob's Deodorant.

As for 1), I've never quite liked the idea. I understand what it could do for Firebug, but I just can't even put into words why I don't like the idea. EDIT: I think I don't like it because I fear this being implemented by itself, without ideas 2&3. If all three were implemented, I guess I'd see incendiary-everything-explosives as "Oh, well, neat." Otherwise, introduced by itself I'd be extremely disappointed. But I'm sure Tripwire knows what they're doing.

 

[HaTeMe]

Actually, I think you could keep the current flamer damage the way it is atm, but give it more fuel. Because, atm the biggest problem is the shortage on ammunation (fuel), you run out before midway on 6 man suicidal. If the weapon had more fuel capacity, you could actually hose down some bigger targets too without worrying about wasting ammo.

Everything else goes down easilly with the flamer, except Fleshpounds, Scrakes and Husks. But
- Husk is a problem only when it gets too close to melee you, and if you have dual handcannos or a katana as a backup its no longer on issue
- Scrakes can be hosed down most of the time, but it requires almost a full canister... But then again, if you have a katana Scrakes are no longer a problem either
---> So, only the Fleshpounds are problematic besides the shortage on fuel.
--------> Increase fuel capacity and problem solved ^^, leaving firebug 1 real threat in the game just like it should be.

 

[brphoenix]

Actually, I think you could keep the current flamer damage the way it is atm, but give it more fuel. Because, atm the biggest problem is the shortage on ammunation (fuel), you run out before midway on 6 man suicidal. If the weapon had more fuel capacity, you could actually hose down some bigger targets too without worrying about wasting ammo.

Everything else goes down easilly with the flamer, except Fleshpounds, Scrakes and Husks. But
- Husk is a problem only when it gets too close to melee you, and if you have dual handcannos or a katana as a backup its no longer on issue
- Scrakes can be hosed down most of the time, but it requires almost a full canister... But then again, if you have a katana Scrakes are no longer a problem either
---> So, only the Fleshpounds are problematic besides the shortage on fuel.
--------> Increase fuel capacity and problem solved ^^, leaving firebug 1 real threat in the game just like it should be.

The biggest problem is not dealing enough damage to kill a FP before he pounds you. A level 5 (my level) sharpshooter can kill, without any help, a FP in suicidal and still have 100 hp and 100 armor (sure, it comes with "SS is overpowered", but a Support can also take an FP down easily). This becomes even more troublesome when you are below level 5, meaning you'll be burned by your own flamethrower, making that FP's job easier.
So, adding a lower-tier flamethrower and buffing the current one is the right thing to do. Dealing more damage is sure to save your *** more than once.

 

[CandleJack]

Overall point - the damage on the firebug is well balanced, and the commando (despite maybe being able to carry a little too much ammo) is the same, since he has a difficult time killing Scrakes and Fleshpounds as well. I still maintain explosives should not be made more usuable for the firebug because it would simply make HIM overpowered as well. However a I would not disagree to having a low damage cheap cone flamethrower as well. As is its a little hard for low level firebugs to buy up.

It'd be funny if TWI made all these changes to the FB but didn't say anything about it, and waited for people to discover the changes.

If there was a weight reduction on the FT for the FB and buffed damage, added Incindiary nades to the M79, and with the standard incind. nades, this might make people play FB more. Also, add an alt-fire that could change between a longer, narrower flame and a shorter, wider flame.

My ideas might be stupid, pointless and maybe even useless, but they're ideas and can be agreed with or laughed at.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[BEEEEEES]

My major concern for a Firebug T3 weapon is ammo. In suicidal, there's just not enough of it as FireBug, no matter how stingy you are.

It always irked me that you can carry 12 rockets, but only 3 fuel canisters. I mean, come on, really?

IMO- FireBug's the most balanced Perk, aside from the punishingly low ammo capacity.

 

[Foxyfired]

fire bullets with firebug

 

[Eggy]

Half jokingly I suggested an aerosol can + match weapon. Very limited range/damage, but still does fire damage. Maybe 5 canisters total.

 

[ScarFace]

Leave the damage as it is. (Quit crying as there are only 2 enemies scrakes and FPs the FB has trouble with. Personally I don't think ANY class should be able to solo a FP as it is the strongest enemy in the game other than the Patty. It's cooperative survival horror and it should take a few guys to drop the badest enemy IMHO).

Increase ammo reserves for the FT.

Lower weight of the FT and add lower tier thrower (wide cone of death) so you can carry both.

Add incindiary ammunition for back up weapons such as HCs.

 

[KingLol]

What the Firebug really needs is a thermic lance attached to the flamethrower as a 1 or 2 shot weapon. That would be fantastic.

Just realised this MUST be included, 4500 degress of melting power thrust through a fleshpound eyesocket is too attractive a prospect to ignore.