Axis Tanks = Owned?

[Scikar]

Is it possible that the T34 appears so tough because its sloped armor exaggerates the wonky ricochets? The Tiger with its mostly flat armor (particularly the sides) can be angled, but the actual impact angle is going to be lower than the T34 where everything is sloped, so angling a T34 means any hit is at a much greater angle. If the penetration code gets further and further out as the angle increases (as seems to be the case), then the T34 gets more benefit from angling than the Tiger, or any of the Axis tanks do (the Panther would on the front, but not the sides).

I agree that the problem is not unique to the T34, but it does appear to me to be more pronounced on the Soviet tanks than the German ones. I think there is some element of "German fanboism", and there is an expectation among some players that Soviet tanks were very poor, but the T34 is still tougher than it should be. The angling phenomenon seems to be the root of this. Sichartsofen mentions as much as 300% extra protection from angling, is this taken directly from the code? Could you explain it in a little more detail?

 

[Sichartshofen]

Is it possible that the T34 appears so tough because its sloped armor exaggerates the wonky ricochets? The Tiger with its mostly flat armor (particularly the sides) can be angled, but the actual impact angle is going to be lower than the T34 where everything is sloped, so angling a T34 means any hit is at a much greater angle. If the penetration code gets further and further out as the angle increases (as seems to be the case), then the T34 gets more benefit from angling than the Tiger, or any of the Axis tanks do (the Panther would on the front, but not the sides).

The armor is only 45mm thick. For 15-27 pound APCBC projectiles it's nothing. It's like trying to angle a piece of cardboard against a 30-06.

 

[Scikar]

The armor is only 45mm thick. For 15-27 pound APCBC projectiles it's nothing. It's like trying to angle a piece of cardboard against a 30-06.

I was under the impression that in RO a piece of cardboard at 45 degrees probably could deflect a 30-06?

 

[Nebfer]

I posted this in another thread but its relivent here, this is a list of all the tanks in game and there armor values. The numbers in Parentheses is the tanks real armor values. (with slope taken into account)

Tiger I
FrontArmorFactor=14 (12)
SideArmorFactor=8 (8)
RearArmorFactor=8 (8)

Panzer IV H
FrontArmorFactor=8 (8)
SideArmorFactor=4 (3)
RearArmorFactor=2 (2)
Has skirts

Panther
FrontArmorFactor=18 (10)
SideArmorFactor=6 (6)
RearArmorFactor=5 (5)

StuG III F(F8?)
FrontArmorFactor=8 (8)
SideArmorFactor=3 (3)
RearArmorFactor=4 (5)

Panzer IV F2 (F1?)
FrontArmorFactor=6 (5)
SideArmorFactor=3 (3)
RearArmorFactor=2 (2)

Panzer III L
FrontArmorFactor=3 (7)
SideArmorFactor=3 (3)
RearArmorFactor=2 (5)
---------------------
IS-2
FrontArmorFactor=14 (14)
SideArmorFactor=11 (10)
RearArmorFactor=10 (6)

T-34/76 & /85
FrontArmorFactor=11 (6/9)
SideArmorFactor=6 (6/6)
RearArmorFactor=5 (6/6)

T-60
FrontArmorFactor=5 (4)
SideArmorFactor=2 (3)
RearArmorFactor=1 (2)

KV-1s
FrontArmorFactor=8 (9)
SideArmorFactor=6 (7)
RearArmorFactor=5 (6)

SU-76
FrontArmorFactor=3 (3)
SideArmorFactor=1 (2)
RearArmorFactor=0 (2)
--------------------------

If you want to see the rest of the info I posted on the other thread you can go here
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showpost.php?p=271568&postcount=163
the post has gun penitration info.

 

[Dheepan]

So the Panther has waaaay more armour in general than it should? Makes sense, t34 is up as well. Tiger armour is pretty high, unusual, people usually complain that it's too weak.

 

[Nebfer]

You should see the penitration values... there like 50% higher than thy should be...

And yes the T-34 and Panther have far more armor than thy had in real life, the Tiger has modertly more armor and the Panzer III and the KV-1s have less!

 

[Elysium]

So the Panther has waaaay more armour in general than it should? Makes sense, t34 is up as well. Tiger armour is pretty high, unusual, people usually complain that it's too weak.

The Tiger's armour is weak, no way a T-34/76 can destroy it in it's frontal armour from above 500 meters and beyound. And yes this even happens when angled. The gun should knock out a T-34 first shot on it's frontal armour at nearly all ranges.

 

[SchutzeSepp]

so its not the armor values, but the projectile penetration values that are messed up?

 

[Solo4114]

It's a lot of things working together.

- It's the angling effet being exagerrated.

- It's the fact that some tanks have overmodeled armor while others have undermodeled armor.

- It's the penetration power of the rounds at certain ranges.

- It's the fact that, at close range, you can deflect WAY more shots than you should be able to.

- It's player psychology because they think the Tiger is some mythical superweapon that can wink at an enemy tank and cause it to disintegrate, but could never itself be destroyed except by papal edict or the hand of God, so when it doesn't perform up to these standards, they get all up in arms.


So basically, it's a lot of stuff.


I agree that there's problems with a lot of the specific tanks, but I also think that there's problems with the system as a whole -- some of which are way more visible with certain tanks than with others. We're dealing with both individual and systemic issues here, and sometimes they overlap which makes it hard to distinguish. It'd be like if the infantry weapons all had improper rates of fire individually, but then on top of that the game only rendered 3/4 of the rounds fired from each weapon under certain circumstances.

So, when players played the game, they'd say things like "WTF??? The MG-42 has a rediculously [sic] low rate of fire!! It's clear that Tripwire is biased towards the Russians!", while Russian players said "WTF?? How come like half the time under [insert circumstances here], my PPS-43 seems to be firing really slowly?" In the end, it'd be that (A) the MG-42 has a reduced rate of fire off the bat, and (B) ALL the weapons suffer from the 3/4 bug at some points. Something like that, anyway.

I'm not saying that the problems with the armor system are quite that bad (I actually don't know how bad they are in any quantifiable way), but I think that's the level of problems we're dealing with: individual issues with each tank, compounded with systemic issues surrounding armor, angling, and penetration in general.

 

[Welt]

so its not the armor values, but the projectile penetration values that are messed up?

Well, I'd say that there is something wrong with penetration when PzIII L can penetrate IS-2 from the front at 1000m when IRL it could only pierce ~50mm at that distance.

 

[Esko6]

Well, I'd say that there is something wrong with penetration when PzIII L can penetrate IS-2 from the front at 1000m when IRL it could only pierce ~50mm at that distance.

And when the IS2 is angled nothing can pierce it.

 

[Sichartshofen]

And when the IS2 is angled nothing can pierce it.

Shoot the center road wheels that will make them think twice about angling again.

 

[FatPartizan]

The Soviet statistics on losses of tanks.

1 column a distance of bombardment.
2 column losses of tanks and self-propelled gun . 75/88 mm %/%


100-200м - 10/4 %
200-400м - 26/14 %
400-600м - 33/18
600-800м - 14,5/31,2
800-1000м - 7/13,5
1000-1200м - 4,5/8,5
1200-1400м - 3,6/7,6
1400-1600м - 0,4/2
1600-1800м - 0,4/0,7
1800-2000м - 0/0,5


I do not speak that these numbers are absolutely correct.
Who be can lay out data of German ?

 

[Quietus]

It's a lot of things working together.

- It's the angling effet being exagerrated.

- It's the fact that some tanks have overmodeled armor while others have undermodeled armor.

- It's the penetration power of the rounds at certain ranges.

- It's the fact that, at close range, you can deflect WAY more shots than you should be able to.

- It's player psychology because they think the Tiger is some mythical superweapon that can wink at an enemy tank and cause it to disintegrate, but could never itself be destroyed except by papal edict or the hand of God, so when it doesn't perform up to these standards, they get all up in arms.


So basically, it's a lot of stuff.

Lol! Papal Edict! I hope TW add that for the Russians in a future patch. Sorry for the non-serious post, resume discussions.

 

[Nebfer]

Sence we are on the discution heres the rest of the data I had in the one post.

this is the gun penitration data as used in game

It's range in 100m increments, penitration at that range in cm, and the penitration it should have in real life (rounded to nearist cm). also I have added values for 1,000m+ (up to 2,400m). It should be noted that the values are for a head on impact (0*)
Note: The 45mm L46 is for if thy add eather the BT-5, BT-7, T-26 or T-70 tanks.

Please note I ran the real gun data through a web based armor penitration calculator, whill not the most acuret of methoeds it was good enough to get a good idea of what the penitration at said range would be like. as most tables only give 100, 500m, 1000m, 1,500m & 2,000m (and quite often its done at 30* and I wanted it to be at 0*.) though I can not say that its entierly acuret perticurly at longer ranges.
---------------------------------------------

50mm L60
PenetrationTable(0)=14 (9)
PenetrationTable(1)=14 (9)
PenetrationTable(2)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(3)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(4)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(5)=12 (7)
PenetrationTable(6)=11 (7)
PenetrationTable(7)=11 (7)
PenetrationTable(8)=10 (6)
PenetrationTable(9)=9 (6)
PenetrationTable(10)=9 (6)
Range 12(5)
Range 14(5)
Range 16(4)
Range 18(4)
Range 20(4)
Range 22(3)
Range 24(3)

APCR
PenetrationTable(0)=20 (17)
PenetrationTable(1)=19 (16)
PenetrationTable(2)=18 (14)
PenetrationTable(3)=17 (12)
PenetrationTable(4)=15 (10)
PenetrationTable(5)=13 (9)
PenetrationTable(6)=11 (8)
PenetrationTable(7)=0 (7)
PenetrationTable(8)=0 (6)
PenetrationTable(9)=0 (5)
PenetrationTable(10)=0 (4)
Range 12(4)
Range 14(3)
Range 16(2)
Range 18(2)
Range 20(0)

75mm L24
PenetrationTable(0)=11 (5)
PenetrationTable(1)=10 (5)
PenetrationTable(2)=10 (5)
PenetrationTable(3)=10 (5)
PenetrationTable(4)=10 (5)
PenetrationTable(5)=9 (4)
PenetrationTable(6)=9 (4)
PenetrationTable(7)=8 (4)
PenetrationTable(8)=8 (4)
PenetrationTable(9)=7 (4)
PenetrationTable(10)=7 (4)
Range 12(4)
Range 14(4)
Range 16(4)
Range 18(4)
Range 20(3)
Range 22(3)
Range 24(3)

75mm L43
PenetrationTable(0)=18 (12)
PenetrationTable(1)=17 (12)
PenetrationTable(2)=17 (12)
PenetrationTable(3)=17 (11)
PenetrationTable(4)=17 (11)
PenetrationTable(5)=16 (11)
PenetrationTable(6)=16 (11)
PenetrationTable(7)=15 (11)
PenetrationTable(8)=15 (10)
PenetrationTable(9)=14 (10)
PenetrationTable(10)=14 (10)
Range 12(10)
Range 14(9)
Range 16(9)
Range 18(8)
Range 20(8)
Range 22(8)
Range 24(7)

75mm L48
PenetrationTable(0)=19 (13)
PenetrationTable(1)=18 (13)
PenetrationTable(2)=18 (13)
PenetrationTable(3)=18 (13)
PenetrationTable(4)=18 (12)
PenetrationTable(5)=17 (12)
PenetrationTable(6)=17 (12)
PenetrationTable(7)=16 (11)
PenetrationTable(8)=16 (11)
PenetrationTable(9)=15 (11)
PenetrationTable(10)=15 (10)
Range 12(10)
Range 14(10)
Range 16(9)
Range 18(9)
Range 20(8)
Range 22(8)
Range 24(8)

75mm L70
PenetrationTable(0)=24 (17)
PenetrationTable(1)=23 (17)
PenetrationTable(2)=23 (17)
PenetrationTable(3)=23 (16)
PenetrationTable(4)=23 (16)
PenetrationTable(5)=22 (16)
PenetrationTable(6)=22 (15)
PenetrationTable(7)=21 (15)
PenetrationTable(8)=21 (15)
PenetrationTable(9)=20 (14)
PenetrationTable(10)=20 (14)
Range 12(13)
Range 14(13)
Range 16(12)
Range 18(12)
Range 20(11)
Range 22(11)
Range 24(10)

88mm L56
PenetrationTable(0)=23 (15)
PenetrationTable(1)=22 (15)
PenetrationTable(2)=22 (14)
PenetrationTable(3)=22 (14)
PenetrationTable(4)=22 (14)
PenetrationTable(5)=21 (14)
PenetrationTable(6)=21 (14)
PenetrationTable(7)=20 (13)
PenetrationTable(8)=20 (13)
PenetrationTable(9)=19 (13)
PenetrationTable(10)=19 (12)
Range 12(12)
Range 14(12)
Range 16(11)
Range 18(11)
Range 20(10)
Range 22(10)
Range 24(9)

20mm L82
PenetrationTable(0)=7(4)
PenetrationTable(1)=6(3)
PenetrationTable(2)=5(3)
PenetrationTable(3)=5(2)
PenetrationTable(4)=4(2)
PenetrationTable(5)=4(2)
PenetrationTable(6)=3(1)
PenetrationTable(7)=2(1)
PenetrationTable(8)=1(0)
PenetrationTable(9)=0(0)
PenetrationTable(10)=0(0)

45mm L46
Range 0(5)
Range 1(5)
Range 2(5)
Range 3(5)
Range 4(5)
Range 5(4)
Range 6(4)
Range 7(4)
Range 8(4)
Range 9(4)
Range 10(3)
Range 12(3)
Range 14(3)
Range 16(3)
Range 18(2)
Range 20(2)

76mm L42
PenetrationTable(0)=14 (9)
PenetrationTable(1)=13 (9)
PenetrationTable(2)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(3)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(4)=13 (8)
PenetrationTable(5)=12 (7)
PenetrationTable(6)=12 (7)
PenetrationTable(7)=11 (7)
PenetrationTable(8)=11 (7)
PenetrationTable(9)=10 (6)
PenetrationTable(10)=10 (6)
Range 12(6)
Range 14(5)
Range 16(5)
Range 18(5)
Range 20(4)
Range 22(4)
Range 24(4)

85mm L54
PenetrationTable(0)=18(12)
PenetrationTable(1)=18(12)
PenetrationTable(2)=17(12)
PenetrationTable(3)=17(12)
PenetrationTable(4)=17(11)
PenetrationTable(5)=16(11)
PenetrationTable(6)=16(11)
PenetrationTable(7)=15(11)
PenetrationTable(8)=15(11)
PenetrationTable(9)=14(10)
PenetrationTable(10)=14(10)
Range 12(10)
Range 14(9)
Range 16(9)
Range 18(9)
Range 20(9)
Range 22(8)
Range 24(8)

122mm L48
PenetrationTable(0)=26(16)
PenetrationTable(1)=25(16)
PenetrationTable(2)=25(16)
PenetrationTable(3)=25(16)
PenetrationTable(4)=25(15)
PenetrationTable(5)=24(15)
PenetrationTable(6)=24(15)
PenetrationTable(7)=23(15)
PenetrationTable(8)=23(14)
PenetrationTable(9)=22(14)
PenetrationTable(10)=22(14)
Range 12(13)
Range 14(13)
Range 16(12)
Range 18(12)
Range 20(12)
Range 22(11)
Range 24(11)
------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

when i read about some comments here my eyes start realy to bleed. As it are now for YEARS over and over and over the exact same old stamtemnts discussed till "ad absurdum"

this is not meant to KrazyKraut, Esko6, Solo4114, Sichartshofen, Reddog,Welt. That make there statements and prove there experience (if possible).

But seriously. What do some people think about tank combat in real and compared to a game? What for imaginations do they have about it. Tank combat, or combat of ANY kind, regardles in which class, is a thing of millions of factos. To exagerate it, even a light tank can damage and penetrate a heavy armored vehicle like a Tiger II B, if the hit is in the right spot (A Richochet from the turret in to the driver part). Even when angled, armor cracking caused by shoots from high velocity guns. The data are, if anything, theoretical. In real, there are factors that would cause effects that can under no circumstances afoided, if you want, as a example from 50 000 produced tanks, 2 with flaws in the armor, that cause, that a small caliber can penetrate even when it should be impossible. This risks are even higher with guns from high velocity (Panther, Tiger, IS2, 85mm anti tank guns). Medium/Heavy tanks are designed to hold out a specific ammount of enemy fire power, but they are NOT immortal. even when angled. When it is talked about reports where a tiger took, 40 shots from, 76mm anti tank guns, mortar shells and 122mm guns but still remains operable it doesnt mean that the tank, could not be destroyed. As many mentioned, a tank is already near inoperable when the tracks are damaged enough. What a good tanks make a good tank, is even under high enemy fire, the crew can survive long enough inside to get support or escape! Main goal of any armed vehicle is to keep the inmants safe long enough till the vehicle reaches the goal it was designed for (destroying the othe enemy vehicle, structure etc.).

This is NOT star wars with 100% energy to the fron shield. If a hit perfect fits, then it fits regardles of armor and its thickness.

Anyway the game can not reflect EVERY aspect, since there are to much of it in real life. But i would be already happy if the tracks would be way more voulenarable. and if HE shells wold do damge to a tanks tracks ONLY (since we dont have such critical spots like optics gun mantlet etc.) and if the tanks would have some structure,so that even when angled, that shots DO penetrate, if they hit often enough on the same spot again. Of course different for each tank, a Tiger will have way less risks of a cracking armor, against a T34/76 then against a IS2. Also a T34/85 way less then the panther.

Iam really sick of reading from people "Panthers front armor is IMORTAL to soviet t34/76", or that there anti tank guns remained to be all crap. But i mean (sarcasm) thats obviously the reason why soviets/allies lost the war ... or moment ...


when you people ever seen a "fire door" or concrete-and-steel structureg cracked that should usualy NOT crack, then you know what iam talking about. Every material has its limit. Thats a fact which can in real live not be changed. There can only be the risks reduced.

 

[sedition]

That, and the Pz III (for instance) currently reloads about twice as fast as a T34 - not entirely sure why the difference is so drastic, but it certainly improves its effectiveness.

The PzIII fired a 50mm shell that was a fraction of the weight of a 75 or 76mm round hence loads of ammo and a fast re-load.(thats also why the Is2 is so slow 122mm rounds with a separate propelant charge).

 

[LemoN]

also the T34/76 was a 4 man tank and had a verry awkward turret design for the crew

 

[mat69]

jedinstven-o crni Wuk you kinda miss the point imo.
It is clear that there are endless of factors in reality, but if something did not happen in most cases (let's say 90 percent) why should it be in this game that only features a very limited set of factors?
It may be possible that a "weak" gun can outknock the Tiger/IS2 ..., but that should not allways be possible.
Coincidence should be taken into account and Amizaur does that allready with the AB mutator.

No, this is not SW, but as SW it has little to do with realism.

 

[Recce]

I posted this in another thread but its relivent here, this is a list of all the tanks in game and there armor values. The numbers in Parentheses is the tanks real armor values. (with slope taken into account)
.
.
Panther
FrontArmorFactor=18 (10)
SideArmorFactor=6 (6)
RearArmorFactor=5 (5)
.

I was wondering how you calculated a value of 10 for the Panther.

Well, I'd say that there is something wrong with penetration when PzIII L can penetrate IS-2 from the front at 1000m when IRL it could only pierce ~50mm at that distance.

In RO:OST, all Russian tanks can be shot though the drivers hatch, as if it wasn't armoured.

I agree with Solo and believe that angling is over modelled. But I'd like to know at what range people think the Tiger's 88mm should start to penetrate the front glacis of the Pather.