Axis Tanks = Owned?

[Esko6]

Okay, people keep telling me that an angled IS2 is not strong. Remember we are talking about an angled tank, not one that has a noob tanker that can't make simple movements to defeat flanking attempts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhJtcWwDJxg

How is that realistic? The Panther's 75mm KwK 42 L/70 is the strongest gun we have in RO, even it can't penetrate an angled IS2 at 10 freaking meters! And take note of the fact that a few of those shots were against a surface that is not even angled. And people keep saying that at long ranges the Germans will rule :I
This same thing happens to some degree with the T34-85 and the Tiger, both are sometimes absurdly resilient when angled, but the IS2 is by far the worst.

Change the penetration values and you will get more team tanking and teamwork!

 

[KrazyKraut]

Nice video, pretty much my usual experience on Arad

Ever check the reload times on a T34-76? They're LONG. Certainly by comparison with, say, the Pz III, Pz IV, and Stug III. Obviously not as long as the IS-2. I think that's supposed to be the "ergonomic" factor at work. But the whole "Boris! When was the last time you showered?" "I don't know, Mitya, when was the last time you brushed your teeth" feeling of a cramped turret probably can't be rendered any other way.

To be honest with you: no. But I think a delay time when changing positions was in order and it could be made longer for the cramped T34-76. Just one possiblity

As for German optics, they absolutely are modelled in that German guns don't need to be re-sighted when you change the range, even on the earliest of their tanks.

I disagree. Re-sighting is a very, very marginal disadvantage to cover such a rather important advantage. Especially considering I rarely change the range at all except on very long ranges. But afaik the correct magnification levels (which should be variable as well, again afaik) aren't in game, which could give some tanks like the Tiger a huge advantage.

Then there's the other things that definetly would have an impact. Like the mentioned fact that a Tiger can turn on the spot, which is kind of essential given the slow turret traverse.

 

[Saturnalia]

I disagree. Re-sighting is a very, very marginal disadvantage to cover such a rather important advantage. Especially considering I rarely change the range at all except on very long ranges. But afaik the correct magnification levels (which should be variable as well, again afaik) aren't in game, which could give some tanks like the Tiger a huge advantage.

Resighting is particularly easy to compensate for given the ranges encountered in game, long range fire with a T-34 is a bit more difficult however. Some German tanks also had binocular sights, which allowed a larger field of view for the gunner.

 

[Solo4114]

To be honest with you: no. But I think a delay time when changing positions was in order and it could be made longer for the cramped T34-76. Just one possiblity

Interesting idea, and I definitely like it (although it might be limited by how the engine handles entry into a vehicle -- IE: if it uses the same "instant in/instant out" to change positions, then it might not be feasible). If it's doable, making cramped conditions affect position switching would be cool.

But definitely check the reload times on a T-34-76 vs its German counterparts. The Pz III at least fires WAY quicker, and the Stug III is faster on the draw as well. the Pz IV I think is marginally faster, but still faster.

I disagree. Re-sighting is a very, very marginal disadvantage to cover such a rather important advantage. Especially considering I rarely change the range at all except on very long ranges. But afaik the correct magnification levels (which should be variable as well, again afaik) aren't in game, which could give some tanks like the Tiger a huge advantage.

Again, that's due largely to the ranges at which we fight. When you're fighting at around 500-600m on most official maps, you really don't need to adjust your aim much. Many people are competent enough to arc their shells without adjusting for range.

Personally, I play with my range ALL the time and it's made me a much better tanker, I think, certainly a much better gunner. I can estimate range a lot easier, and am usually on target with my first shot when other folks are falling short or overshooting me. This comes in especially handy when I'm driving a T-34-76 because of the reload times, by the way.

Later on it becomes a moot point because both sides have linked sights, but early on the Germans do have the advantage. If you can estimate range, you just dial it in, point and click. No need to arc the shells yourself.


I do agree that the lack of maginfication is an issue, but again, it's a moot point at our engagement ranges. The game's current magnification works fine for the current visual range. Being able to zoom in when you're at 800m and can still spot and hit the enemy tank doesn't really make much of a difference. Plus, with the Tiger at least, dialing in ranges with the precision that tank's sight offers makes one-shotting enemies that much easier.

If we have more long-range tank maps then yeah, magnification would be a major help, but without that it's kind of a waste of time to add.

Then there's the other things that definetly would have an impact. Like the mentioned fact that a Tiger can turn on the spot, which is kind of essential given the slow turret traverse.[/quote]

 

[karl stiner]

The King Tiger is totally underpowered in RO. I can destory them with the T60 all day long. Once on Lyeskrovy I killed one at 800 meters. Fix the King Tiger!

hahahahhaa there is no king tiger in this game, its the tiger one tank hehe if a king tiger was in the game and a T60 could kill it, i will have a baby [SIZE=-1]Screaming[/SIZE] my head off

 

[[=KAS=]doomed]

To repeat:


JOKE


YOUR HEAD

 

[SchutzeSepp]

Okay, people keep telling me that an angled IS2 is not strong. Remember we are talking about an angled tank, not one that has a noob tanker that can't make simple movements to defeat flanking attempts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhJtcWwDJxg

How is that realistic? The Panther's 75mm KwK 42 L/70 is the strongest gun we have in RO, even it can't penetrate an angled IS2 at 10 freaking meters! ...

were you shooting at the worst spots on purpous?
if you shoot between the hull and the turret, the shell usually doesn't bounce.
it takes more shells to destroy it, but it is the only way to destroy an angled IS2

also, tankers on arad are starting to use HE shells to desroy an angled tank more effectively

 

[KrazyKraut]

Pfft. That's not the point. The point is: at that range, with that gun, the shells should've penetrated no matter where they hit.

Besides that, the spots were okay.

 

[Solo4114]

But that's a common problem with ALL the tanks. Short range fighting has always been a problem, especially extreme short range.

Personally, I think the game models penetration very well from about 700m and up. It models penetration mostly ok from about 400m and up. Go under 400m and for some reason the tanks seem a LOT stronger much of the time. It's not even always consistent, it seems. That's all based on anecdotal experience, though, not on rigorous testing.

 

[Elysium]

Pfft. That's not the point. The point is: at that range, with that gun, the shells should've penetrated no matter where they hit.

Besides that, the spots were okay.

Agreed. I've seen photos of tanks destroyed from shots at angled parts of the tank and even the mobile bonfire Sherman should've destroyed that IS2 at that range!

 

[Sichartshofen]

The problem with the RO tanks that has existed since the mod is simple. The Germans have every advantage they had taken away and the Russians have all these unrealistic advantages.

T34's coded with 110mm front armor which are turned invulnerable to the long 7.5cm guns, while in reality the PaK40 could penetrate a T34 from any angle out to 1200 meters. If that happened with the PaK40 you can be damn sure it happened with the longer 7.5cm L71 and the Tigers 8.8cm gun. The Panzer III Ausf L is coded with only 30mm front armor. It's not an Ausf F it is suppose to be an Ausf L. If the devs wanted a useless tank from 1939 they should have put the 37mm gun in the PzIII.

Tigers are getting their sides and rear penetrated by 76.2mm guns at over 1000 meters. A T34/76, KV-1 and SU76 stands no chance against the Tigers armor until they get within 100 meters of the side or rear.

The long awaited Panzer IV H with useless side skirts getting penetrated by 76.2mm guns at over 1000 meters. The armor was upgraded to 80mm for a reason, to eliminate 76.2mm guns as a threat. Let's not forget the side skirts that do not do their intended purpose of stoping PTRD rounds. " Oh but Sichartshofen allied inteliigence says they were designed to stop shaped charges". Wrong, they were designed to defeat anti-tank rifles and anti-tank rifles only.

Those that say "oh well the Germans have the advantage at long range". Wrong, if you can't knock out an angled T34 with a PzIV at 20 meters it's not happening at 500.

The points here is, get rid of this magic T34 angling bonus and lower the T34 to 90mm instead of 110mm. Give the PzIII L it's proper amount of armor. Stop the high velocity 7.5cm and 8.8cm guns from bouncing off the T34, SU76, KV1 and T60. Put the PTRD max penetrate down to 60mm so atleast 1 German tank doesn't need to worry about it.

 

[Elysium]

Agreed. So much for the fearsome 88.

 

[Lapata]

Try to play as Russians on RO-BlackDayJuly and see how "weak" the Tiger and the PzIv/III's are. Most of the time, unless the German side is totally incompetent, the Russians gets powned badly by the German armour and the only real defense is the arty.

Few times I stayed alive through the round by effectively using the Tiger killed countless t-34 s SU's and made it to Russian spawn where I usually got surrounded and flanked , about 40 percent of my shots were one shot kills on moving and stationary targets . Tiger is only not as effective on small maps like Arad(terrible map) plus if the tank crew sux it doesnt metter what tank you use.

 

[Reddog]

I disagree, I played a clan match on an early version of BDJ recently and my Tiger was killed or severely damaged (ie. engine failure etc) by FRONTAL hits from T34's, at ranges in the 400m+ vicinity. They weren't firing HE either.

The armour just feels so glitchy sometimes, like the shells which did it to me were actually ricocheting but still damaging me. Like after 5 or 6 bounces they would just start culmulatively damaging me (ie. I go yellow then a few more ricochets and I go red), and like I said they weren't using HE.

I dunno about BDJ being a cake walk for the Germans, I mean if anything I'd say it is the opposite. The T34's are faster, tougher and meaner than the PIV's and PIII's, they are also capable of easy 1 shot frontal kills to Stugs (I do it all the time). Plus I find the optics they have much faster and less obtrusive than the German stuff. The only card the Germans have to play at all in the earlier versions is the lone Tiger, and against a coherent defense backed by a large reinforcement advantage that isn't a lot.

I find the map only really got better for the Germans in the final where they get captured T34's, because now they have tanks other than the Tiger which can match the enemy T34's.

To tell the truth the only maps where the Tiger feels as it should IMHO are Narva and Muddy Tigers, and that's only because they feature a modified version with proper armour and gun values.

 

[Solo4114]

Those that say "oh well the Germans have the advantage at long range". Wrong, if you can't knock out an angled T34 with a PzIV at 20 meters it's not happening at 500.

This has not been my experience. In general, I do better with German armor when I use it at ranges over 700m. The Tiger, in particular, is nigh invulnerable (certainly frontally) at those ranges. Last night on BDJ I basically did what all the German fanboy tankers out there want to do -- I sat in a Tiger and picked off probably about 11 T-34s at ranges of 700m or so, while the bulk of their shots ricocheted off my armor and did no damage. It was only when I was finally flanked and killed at less than 400m that they took me out (but by then my team was capping the last zone).

The points here is, get rid of this magic T34 angling bonus and lower the T34 to 90mm instead of 110mm. Give the PzIII L it's proper amount of armor. Stop the high velocity 7.5cm and 8.8cm guns from bouncing off the T34, SU76, KV1 and T60. Put the PTRD max penetrate down to 60mm so atleast 1 German tank doesn't need to worry about it.

I don't know what the T-34-76's armor is set to, but if it's not the realistic level, then yes, it should be reduced to the appropriate level.


But I will say this -- the problem is not unique to the German team. There are plenty of times when Russian tankers have similar "WTF???" moments. Those who play both sides with equal frequency know this.

There is also a BIG problem with close-range fighting. Last night, I had an encounter with a T-34 at point blank range. Literally point blank range here. We were nose to nose because I came over a hill and oops! There he was.

So, we're both angled, we both fire at each other, and NEITHER of us dies in a single hit. At point blank range, whoever pulled the trigger first should've been the victor. There is no reason that angling or the armor of either tank should've stopped the round at that range.

While he eventually got me (I think he repositioned slightly, and got a clearer shot at my ammo box), the angling of both of our tanks still allowed us to survive the initial encounter.

THAT is the major problem. It's not JUST "ZOMG!! Teh T-34 is toooo powerful!!" The problem lies with how angling affects ALL tanks, and also with how range affects penetration, especially close range. This type of scenario has happened to me far too often for it to be a fluke. There's something wrong with how the armor code handles penetration at short range, OR with how the ballistics code handles short range.

 

[mat69]

It's not only that:

As it is now, only the hull angle counts, so you can angle hull and you get this bonus on the turret as well. Try this - rotate the Panther's turret backwards, and try to shoot at the turret from the front and from the rear. You will notice that now from the turret rear it has full protection, and the turret front is weak.

The Devs did not commented on that.

 

[Solo4114]

Basically, turrets aren't rendered independently of hulls. Your turret's facing doesn't matter at all. It's as if the hull "hit box" extends to the turret. One of the other major problems with the tank coding.


As I've said, though, this isn't restricted to German tanks. This isn't an issue of Russian favoritism. The problem here is that people NOTICE these issues with the German tanks way more than they do with Russian tanks simply because they (a) know more about German tanks, (b) expect German tanks to be incredibly superior to Russian tanks and are then disappointed when they are not, and/or (c) are German fanboys who never play as the Russians and thus lack any real perspective on the issue and are hopelessly biased.

But these problems (IE: angling overmodeled, close range coding being basically broken, turrets not being treated independently of hulls, etc.) are universal to the tank system as a whole.

 

[Sichartshofen]

I'm not refering to turrets not seperated from the hull or bugs. It's the simple fact that T34's deflect tank shells that they never could and T34's are coded with more armor then a Tiger. In other words someone on the dev team seems to think the T34 was some super tank capable of defeating any AP projectile because it has magical sloped armor.

BTW: I do play with the Russian tanks and being the creator of an armor mutator I know how the tank system works and how it is coded.

 

[Welt]

T34's are coded with more armor then a Tiger. In other words someone on the dev team seems to think the T34 was some super tank capable of defeating any AP projectile because it has magical sloped armor.

More armor?

When Tiger:

FrontArmorFactor=14//11
SideArmorFactor=8
RearArmorFactor=8

When T-34:

FrontArmorFactor=11
SideArmorFactor=6
RearArmorFactor=5

Only reason T-34 seems to be overpowered is angling, if you get a shot in, it's toast. Angling and point blank combat make the wtf?-moments.

 

[Solo4114]

I'm not refering to turrets not seperated from the hull or bugs. It's the simple fact that T34's deflect tank shells that they never could and T34's are coded with more armor then a Tiger. In other words someone on the dev team seems to think the T34 was some super tank capable of defeating any AP projectile because it has magical sloped armor.

BTW: I do play with the Russian tanks and being the creator of an armor mutator I know how the tank system works and how it is coded.

I wasn't actually referring to you in terms of the "German fanboys who don't play in russian tanks" bit.

I do think, however, that the problem is universal and not limited solely to the T-34. Although its' much more noticeable with matchups like the T-34-76 vs. the Tiger.

I've had plenty of times when I've been IN an AFV armed with a 76.2mm cannon and have fired at an enemy at a range I KNEW I should've penetrated, but gotten a ricochet. There may be a separate problem with the T-34's armor level, but the angling problem and close range problems are common to all tanks.