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Beta Map [Beta 1] RO-Berezina

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#121
Slyk said:
I know it is a big map, but I can’t help wondering if people saying that they feel ‘alone’ are not on fairly busy servers. The map size is not going to change. If you are feeling ‘alone’ on this map, can you please tell me what the player counts are, the roles you are taking, etc. I am biased, but try to keep an open mind. It really seems that in the rounds I have played with 16+ players, that you are not really even alone. Of course it isn’t as busy as if you have 28-32 players, but on a server with over 24 I can’t imagine you aren’t seeing action. Beta2 will resolve a lot of concerns expressed to this point, but it won’t fix the fact that people just don’t care about team play, nor will it prevent ass-hats from driving off alone in every HT they find or tankers parking their PzIII/IV on an exposed ridge line with a bulls eye on their forehead.
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Slyk, he complains about alot of maps being "too big", i would not let it concern you, frankly. IIRC, he thought/thinks Orel is too big, and BlackDayJuly as well. I think some people fail to understand that not everyone likes the tiny little flash-point maps, where johnny short-attention-span can get into combat within three micro-seconds of spawning. :rolleyes: by crikey.......

Anyways, back on point, map size is fine of course, and I think the map is pretty damn balanced. I would not change anything yet, and let it play out on the public servers for another full week (until Sunday August 27th). it really has not been out that long.

I played both sides, and won and lost numerous times. Team work won the day each time IIRC. I must have played the map for at least 6 hours this weekend, if not more. No balance issue jumped out at me. I recall a round or two where the soviets really dug in at the second line, and the game basically ground on from there for a sov win both times (once I was sov, once I was German). that seems to be a "make or break" point of the map, but I don't think that's a problem.

Since the map is a progressive cap map, spawn protection for the germans makes more sense than protection for the russkies. since the average gamer has no concept of defense, it's far more likely to have roaming russians players in the german rear, spawn sniping/camping, than the reverse.

Lastly, I agree with one point made above, and that's the sniper issue. nothing kills a good stand-up man fight than a sniper; he's the least likely "team" player. probably not capping or defending with the rest of the team. just my 2 cents man. in WWII, snipers were pretty irrelevant.

this is the best map in the game by far. since playing it, I can't bring myself to waste my precious RO gaming time (i.e., all my gaming time) playing other maps. :D . heh, when I did this past weekend, it was to visit friendly team servers that I know, to spam the chat with remarks like "hey, have you guys tried Berezina yet?" :cool:

EDIT: forgot to comment about the T-60. Definately swap it in if you give it the BT7 characteristics, and to hell with the peanut gallery. marking it somehow, as suggested, might help. The KV1s do dominate, but, an experienced German tanker can still do alot of damage. ;)

EDIT2: also forgot to mention that on every single round I played this past weekend, the game was won by time (russian win), or by caps (german win). At no time did I see reinforcements run out. interesting, eh?
 
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#123
well for me I prefer smaller to medium sized maps, not because I have a short attention span heinz, but because getting into the action quickly is what i enjoy, not driving for 10mins before I see an enemy...if you want that experience go buy a tank sim bud!

HOWEVER - Berezina is nothing like that, although the map is big, imo it keeps the combat areas on a fairly small scale which is fantastic for gameplay, and because of the number of objectives, which are all placed superbly the combat ebbs an flows much like the old CNQ maps on CoDuo, albeit on a much bigger scale.

This map, and Lazur are why I knew the Ahz boyz would come good in RO, since the gametype fits their map designs perfectly!
 
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#126
I have played Berezina quite a bit lately and I must say that it is (in my opinion) the best map out there for RO (by far) retail or custom. True, the map is HUGH but to me it feels like 2 or 3 smaller maps played in succession. With lost objectives being uncappable it focuses the fight on defending/attacking the next capable objective. It has a real nice flow to it.

To me, the game style is pretty strength forward. On Berezina the Russians use the classic "Defense in depth" strategy. For the Germans to get to the finish line they have to fight their way through the series of Russian defense lines while the Russians try to bleed down the German reenforcements as they fight there way through said defenses. Pretty simple.

The Russian players need to realize that they are on the DEFENSIVE and that they are at a BIG reenforcement and equipment disadvantage to the Germans. They need to play as a team and play smart. Rushing into and fighting for objectives that can
 
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#127
Great map. Amazing work.

Just wanted to lend my support to the idea of shortening the map time. I'm not too concerned about getting bored, just the fact that whenever I play this, Russians seem to run out of reinforcements at 10-15 minutes before times up.

That can either be balanced out by increasing Russian reinforcements, or shortening the time. I'd say make it default to 45 minutes. I think 30's too short for Germans to make it across.


I also wanted to mention that I've seen a stuck KV-1s in the field just east of the road just south of the bridge (bridge objective). Couldn't get it out, but luckally placed well so I could take out all sorts of armor coming across the bridge.
 
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#129
DrGruppy and mormegil you dont get quite get it if your running out of reinforcements with 10-15 minutes to go the problem is not with the map but the russians being too careless and attacking greyed out areas, i played this map with a decent bunch of players yesterday and we didnt run out till the last minute. The way to play this map for the russians is once you hit 10/15 % reinforcements your supposed to fall back to the last objective we did it last night and left some people to delay the capture of the cp.
If you shorten the round time against a decent russian team this map will become almost unwinnable atm this map is very balanced teamwork being the deciding factor your idea would need a total rework of the some objectives or removal of the village cp as a cap zone. Atm it takes normally 30 minutes for the germans to capture the 2nd line then another 10-15 for cp then 5-10 min for at and west bank now include the east bank which is another at least 5-15 min. 45 minutes to do all that you must be joking.:rolleyes:
 
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#132
DrGuppy said:
No I understand what you're saying but even for a good map like this a whole hour per round is simply too long. Personally I think the time could be reduced to 45 minutes with very little changes to the map making it play better and even be more popular.
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But gruppy if you listened carefully to what sylk has said is that he's trying to appeal to hardcore ro team players and he has said he wont make compromises for those who arent so i think the chances of this are slim to none thankfully.
 
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#133
Ron said:
But gruppy if you listened carefully to what sylk has said is that he's trying to appeal to hardcore ro team players and he has said he wont make compromises for those who arent so i think the chances of this are slim to none thankfully.
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I know what he's trying to accomplish and I respect that but I can still have an opinion you know. ;) You can still have hardcore teamplay with a 45 minute timer. In fact 45 minutes would probably require more teamplay because the Germans would actually have to make an effort to push up instead of sitting back and trying to just snipe and bring down the Russian reinforcements. Also the defenders would have to put up a harder fight and be more organized because at the moment they can still win even if half their team keeps attacking objectives that can't be recaptured.

Mike_Nomad said:
Please Slyk... LEAVE the TIME Limits as they are... This is NOT COD.
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Of course it isn't CoD but that doesn't mean it has to be Operation FlashPoint or WWII online either. Just because someone suggests a time limit of 45 minutes instead of 1 hour doesn't make him an A.D.D. kid straight out of CS you know. You could bump the reinforcements up on a map like Odessa and change the time limit to 2 hours per round but that wouldn't make it a better map IMO. The goal should be to have the map end with 5 minutes or less every round so it keeps players attention. Nobody is going to leave a server when their team has 0% reinforcements and 1 minute on the clock while their last few teammates struggle to hold on to that final objective. However, people will leave if their team has 0% reinforcements and 20 minutes left on the clock.

There's nothing wrong with testing out different times and reinforcement levels to get the best results for your map. I'm sure Slyk will choose whatever works best. :cool:
 
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#135
Well, I would prefer to leave it at 60 minutes.

From when I have played, I notice the reinforcements (from the Russian point of view) run out faster when you have players going out of their way to try to recap uncappable objectives, or rushing to get to the German spawn to presumably try to get in some spawn kills.

When the Russians play mostly as a team, and possibly only try to recap the village or AT Guns, I have seen them on full servers with reinforcements still left after 60 minutes.

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If it really ends up the Russians consistantly run out of reinforcements too soon, I would maybe tweak the Russian reinforcements up a bit, by maybe 20 or 40 (It is 240 now, right?) instead of dropping the time. Lowering the time really makes it difficult for the Germans on many occasions to make it to the East Bank. 60 minutes is just fine at the moment.
 
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#136
North Road KV: Purposely stuck. I have added deeper holes there and filled it with water. That tank is basically a bonus pillbox. Once useable AT guns come along, I will remove it (not sure we will have those for 'final' though so maybe we are talking v1.1)

Time Limit: I was going to up the Russian pool to 280. I am not a fan of cutting the time. I have played enough rounds to have seen it all. I have been on both teams where the '1st Line' has fallen in under 4 mintues. I have seen the '2nd' Line fall in about 12 minutes. I have seen the Russians hold the '1st Line' for over 30 minutes and the '2nd' for nearly 50. I have been on both sides where the round ended (nearly full server) in under 40 minutes.

The time limit is really not a factor when you consider teamwork and it's impact. A good Russian team should have a 50/50 or better chance to win. It is the ignorant SoBs who ruin the game for the Russians by charging off to lost objectives and wasting lives. I could see 45 minutes, but then the Russians, IMO, would win 75% or more of the rounds. It really is about attrition. I need to kill more of your guys than you do of mine. Whoever is the most proficient at this will win. I have seen the Germans win on caps with 7% reinforcements to 0% for the Russians....the remaining Russians cowered hoping to stay alive and the Germans pushed in for the cap-win.

Although I was thinking of upping the Russian numbers, now I am not so sure. I think it's a tough map for both teams. Time is not relevant when you have a superbly working team or a piss-poor bunch of fools. Either way it comes down to how long does it take you to go from point A to B.

Introducing other variables like the BT7 will put more pressure on the Russians and should change the flow of the map a bit more in the favor of the Germans where less coordination may work and the Russians will have to be more careful with their one KV.
 
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#137
Keep the time limit at 60 minutes! Particularly on this map, you NEED 60 minutes if the Russians are defending like they should. I bought the game to fight in immersive battles, and I hate the standard 20 minute limit on most maps. I say, fight until somebody wins! I love the fact that we have enough time to appreciate the entire map.
 
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#138
Ron said:
DrGruppy and mormegil you dont get quite get it if your running out of reinforcements with 10-15 minutes to go the problem is not with the map but the russians being too careless and attacking greyed out areas, i played this map with a decent bunch of players yesterday and we didnt run out till the last minute. The way to play this map for the russians is once you hit 10/15 % reinforcements your supposed to fall back to the last objective we did it last night and left some people to delay the capture of the cp.
If you shorten the round time against a decent russian team this map will become almost unwinnable atm this map is very balanced teamwork being the deciding factor your idea would need a total rework of the some objectives or removal of the village cp as a cap zone. Atm it takes normally 30 minutes for the germans to capture the 2nd line then another 10-15 for cp then 5-10 min for at and west bank now include the east bank which is another at least 5-15 min. 45 minutes to do all that you must be joking.:rolleyes:
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yep, well said. as I posted earlier, I have never even participated in a map/round in this map where the game was decided by reinforcements. if the russians are running out with 10-15 minutes left in the map, those are some really bad players, or the chronic rambo types that ignore the necessary defensive posture.

in summary; change nothing. don't bring the game down to the lowest common denominator. force the players to come UP to it's superior level. add the BT7. :cool:
 
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