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What we are up to - Jan 13th "The Pacific Front" Edition

I love how intentionally antagonistic some of the players here are:

game releases:

Players: "This isn't like RO1! You tricked us TWI, change it or else!"

TWI: "Hey guys, good news we are making a mode that is a lot more like RO1!"

Players: "We don't want your s**!ty RO1 mode TWI; since its made by the people who made Ro2 I'm sure it'll suck!"

good attitude guys
 
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I love how intentionally antagonistic some of the players here are:

game releases:

Players: "This isn't like RO1! You tricked us TWI, change it or else!"

TWI: "Hey guys, good news we are making a mode that is a lot more like RO1!"

Players: "We don't want your s**!ty RO1 mode TWI; since its made by the people who made Ro2 I'm sure it'll suck!"

good attitude guys

More leik

TW: Heres cover art with a German holding a scoped MKB, dont worry guys it's just a cover trust us this game is all your dreams and wishes ;P

Players: We trust you TW and anyone complaining is a realism troll!

Post Release

Players: wtf...

TW: It seems .001% of the community doesn't like our change in direction and the rest of them have left because battlefield 3. Our Indyness cannot handle mainstream releases.

Ramm: Dont worry I'll use my mastery of PR and common sense to tell them their wrong. Also I'm no longer working on RO so good luck or whatever.
 
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I have two petty requests, that I would LOVE to see.

1) Give a percentile of the German forces greatcoats.

2) Information about the regiments that are fighting on the loading screen... I don't know how feasible this is with the current UI, but, having the information about each side's regiment was fantastic! As well as native role names (btw, WHERE ARE THE NATIVE VOICES COME ON! I hope to see this in the update).

Also, I'm so sick of hearing the ending messages, "We will be heroes of the Soviet Union!" or "The Iron Cross is ours!" It feels so damn cheesy, I can't bear to hear it.
 
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First of all, I'm glad to see that the devs have finally acknowledged that major changes need to be made to RO2. I appreciate them asking us to help them fix RO2, though I'll admit it's taken a while.

Needless to say, I have written essays on this topic in many places scattered all over the forums. I've given my feedback time and time again both on the regular forums and the beta forums so I won't beat a dead horse too much more than it already has been. Here is my laundry list of changes that I feel are necessary to make RO2 the realistic game that we all expected it to be. I haven't read any of the other suggestions on this thread, and I have no doubt (and hope) that there will be lots of overlap. Here we go.

1) Remove the wounding/bandaging system altogether, or improve it. If you're going to keep it, make it so there are actual CONSEQUENCES for being wounded. If you're shot in the leg, you should run slower like in RO1 (suffering a large penalty at first, then a lesser one). Being wounded in general should make it noticeably harder to handle a weapon (noticeably increased sway) and should cause the player to have less stamina. If possible, it would be great to see location-specific penalties for getting wounded, such as much worse aim if shot in the arm, and similar things. Bandaging times also need to be much longer, depending on the severity of the wound and the number of wounds. These factors (severity, number of wounds) should also effect the player's combat effectiveness -- otherwise, there's simply no point in having a wounding system.

2) Increase general weapon sway. This is especially true for when the player has just finished some sort of strenuous activity such as sprinting. It shouldn't be possible to sprint, stop on a dime, and pull off a perfect shot at 100 meters. The "hold shift to steady" is currently so overpowered that there is no point in resting your weapon against a wall or surface like in RO1, because you can hold it down indefinitely and have perfect accuracy from any stance. Thus, the "hold shift/hold breath" ability should give steadier aim for only a few seconds before aim goes off.

3) Remove or severely nerf the extra "shift zoom" that holding left shift adds. The removal of sway that you get for holding down left shift is already a major bonus to aiming -- the extra zoom is not only silly but makes every weapon into a sniper rifle. The regular zoom that happens by default when the player goes into ironsights is sufficient and superior to what RO1 had to offer (no zoom at all). Keep that the same, but remove the extra zoom that has turned RO2 into a snipe-fest.

4) Improve the suppression system so that it actually serves a purpose. Turning the screen grey does not "suppress" the player. Make the degree to which the player's gun "bounces" around their screen much more pronounced --especially when under heavy fire from weapons such as MGs so that suppression actually exists. Right now it does nothing -- its either you pop up and kill the enemy 200 meters away or they kill you. With drastic improvements to suppression and weapon sway changes (above), cool features that you guys at TWI spent so much time on such as blindfire and the first person cover system as a whole will finally have a purpose.

5) Make the bolt-action rifle to SMG/MG ratio more historically accurate (see: RO1 levels) where the majority of players are using bolt action rifles for both sides. Currently, though it has improved slightly, there are still FAR too many SMGs on the battlefield -- over half last time I checked on a typical 64 player server. One thing right off the bat that would help this along would be to make the number of squad leaders per team open up dynamically depending on how many players are on the server, so that we don't have a bunch of extra squad-less squad leaders running around the map with SMGs.

6) Give players any and all equipment that they should have which is historically accurate. In other words, severely reduce or remove altogether the Mkb42, AVT 40, and MP40II (the latter which didn't even see frontline service in any numbers ...). All Russian soldiers should receive the drum magazine for their PPSH by default, as it was almost nearly the only magazine being used for the PPSH at the time. Every soldier with a bolt action rifle should also receive a bayonet, as this was also standard issue for the time. The MG34 should really only have the regular drum magazine -- the double drum mag for that gun was super rare and shouldn't be seen on the battlefield.

7) Player movement needs to have inertia, like in RO1 and other realistic games. Right now players are able to run around like they're in a sci-fi universe -- able to stop, turn, spin around, and fire on a dime like they don't weigh a thing. It needs to take a little extra time to stop and start moving, and actions such as mantling should take a bit longer to perform. Also, movement speed should be slower when running upstairs -- right now it's incredibly unrealistic and basically arcade how fast players are able to sprint up stairways. These changes will slow the pace of combat down to realistic speeds and improve the entire feel of the game -- trust me. Reloads could also stand to be slowed down, (if possible) given that certain guns reload almost comically fast -- especially the box mag reload for the MG34 which is even faster than CoD4 when compared to reloads for LMGs in that game which have box mags!

8) MG34 hipshooting needs to be totally nerfed. I give this its own category because its such a glaring issue. I brought this up countless times during the pre-release beta back in July and I've been dismayed to see the problem actually get worse since that time. The beta forum was extremely against the super-ease of hipshooting this weapon back then, and forum sentiment definitely hasn't changed. I find that MGs as a whole are much more useful in a Rambo role than their intended role as a fire support weapon. This is of course partially due to the fact that suppression fire is not a viable tactic in RO2 (see above: Weapon Sway).

9. Please give us an in-game option to turn off non-native voices. This is a small detail, but it really kills the immersion for me when I hear my character say "Hehe, I think the Germans are ****ting their pants!" (a line probably stolen from Enemy at the Gates) every 5 minutes. If I have to listen to silly B-movie writing, at least let me to listen to it in my soldier's native language. I know there are ways right now to jerry-rig this to have the right voices, but it really does need to be a simple in-game toggle if possible.

10. Tanks. Oh Tanks. Where do I begin? This point really deserves a thread by itself (there are many), but there are a few big changes to tanks that must be made. First, there needs to at least be a server option that allows admins to turn off the AI hull MG gunner for all tanks. It's clear that the AI MG gunners essentially allow players to cheat and the fact that tanks have been removed from most of the populated servers for this very reason should be enough to drive this point home. Second, and this is very general: fix the armor values on the tanks. It's clear that there are some major issues with tanks often taking waaaay too many rounds to destroy -- especially the PzIV. See the other tank threads for details on this. Finally, tank spawning. There needs to be a much larger wait time on tanks respawning in the game. Right now tanks basically pop right back into action after they've been destroyed. This is neither realistic or good for gameplay -- what's the point of destroying a tank when it's going to come back in less than a minute?

These are some pretty big changes, but I feel like they are necessary to make RO2 the kind of realistic, gritty game that many of us want it to be. There are lots of things that I actually think RO2 gets right -- graphical style, weapon feel (sounds, recoil, etc), violence, and atmosphere. Now it's time to get the gameplay where it needs to be. I always say this, but I really hope the devs listen closely and implement as many of these changes as possible. Let's see this game move in the right direction. Contrary to probably what is popular belief, I would much rather play RO2 than ***** about it on the forums!

:IS2:
 
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*basic realism game stuff followed by IS2*
:IS2:

You'd think these are some of the initial things the team would have thought of when developing this game. Somehow, it wasn't. Why, I can't even begin to guess. But finally for whatever reason it appears TWI has seen the light and is willing to do what they're previously known for, which is listen to their community.
 
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4) Improve the suppression system so that it actually serves a purpose. Turning the screen grey does not "suppress" the player. Make the degree to which the player's gun "bounces" around their screen much more pronounced --especially when under heavy fire from weapons such as MGs so that suppression actually exists. Right now it does nothing -- its either you pop up and kill the enemy 200 meters away or they kill you. With drastic improvements to suppression and weapon sway changes (above), cool features that you guys at TWI spent so much time on such as blindfire and the first person cover system as a whole will finally have a purpose.

Common and understandable misunderstanding. However the current form of suppression in the game is actually quite severe, if you are just slightly suppressed you will not be able to hit anything at all, even on very close quarters, because the bullets will veer dramatically off course, it is just the graphical representation of the offset muzzle direction that is lacking.
 
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I mostly agree with HW but:
5) Make the bolt-action rifle to SMG/MG ratio more historically accurate (see: RO1 levels) where the vast majority of players are using bolt action rifles for both sides. Currently, though it has improved slightly, there are still FAR too many SMGs on the battlefield -- over half last time I checked on a typical 64 player server.
This is only a problem due to the Squad leader system, make them scale to amount of players per server and its pretty much fixed.
6) Give players any and all equipment that they should have which is historically accurate. In other words, severely reduce or remove altogether the Mkb42, AVT 40, and MP40II (the latter which didn't even see frontline service in any numbers ...). All Russian soldiers should receive the drum magazine for their PPSH by default, as it was almost nearly the only magazine being used for the PPSH at the time. Every soldier with a bolt action rifle should also receive a bayonet, as this was also standard issue for the time. The MG34 should really only have the regular drum magazine -- the double drum mag for that gun was super rare and shouldn't be seen on the battlefield.
Whilst I cant defend the Mkb (I also I hate the sound of it, I remember when no one had it in the beta and the battles sounded better) but the AVT was being used around that time to do a massive lack of LMG like the DP1928, so as I said before it should be given to MG players and on some maps should be out right replacing the DP1928. It was rare during the whole war but it was not rare during that time period as an ad hoc MG. The MP40II was a PoS that jammed all of the time, if that was in the game then it would be okay to have a few of them it but there is no jamming however it its not a bad idea to make it a Pioneer exclusive weapon as they needed to the extra firepower.

Now I could give you footage from Stalingrad of the double drum but it should be an option on post encirclement maps as I cant see the Wehr not using AA MG34s in a ground role as the Russians close in, it should be a option on maps on Tractor Factory and Fallen Fighters but it must make the player move much slower and not be a flat out upgrade...
 
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1) Remove the wounding/bandaging system altogether, or improve it. If you're going to keep it, make it so there are actual CONSEQUENCES for being wounded. If you're shot in the leg, you should run slower like in RO1 (suffering a large penalty at first, then a lesser one). Being wounded in general should make it noticeably harder to handle a weapon (noticeably increased sway) and should cause the player to have less stamina. If possible, it would be great to see location-specific penalties for getting wounded, such as much worse aim if shot in the arm, and similar things. Bandaging times also need to be much longer, depending on the severity of the wound and the number of wounds. These factors (severity, number of wounds) should also effect the player's combat effectiveness -- otherwise, there's simply no point in having a wounding system.

2) Increase general weapon sway. This is especially true for when the player has just finished some sort of strenuous activity such as sprinting. It shouldn't be possible to sprint, stop on a dime, and pull off a perfect shot at 100 meters. The "hold shift to steady" is currently so overpowered that there is no point in resting your weapon against a wall or surface like in RO1, because you can hold it down indefinitely and have perfect accuracy from any stance. Thus, the "hold shift/hold breath" ability should give steadier aim for only a few seconds before aim goes off.

3) Remove or severely nerf the extra "shift zoom" that holding left shift adds. The removal of sway that you get for holding down left shift is already a major bonus to aiming -- the extra zoom is not only silly but makes every weapon into a sniper rifle. The regular zoom that happens by default when the player goes into ironsights is sufficient and superior to what RO1 had to offer (no zoom at all). Keep that the same, but remove the extra zoom that has turned RO2 into a snipe-fest.

4) Improve the suppression system so that it actually serves a purpose. Turning the screen grey does not "suppress" the player. Make the degree to which the player's gun "bounces" around their screen much more pronounced --especially when under heavy fire from weapons such as MGs so that suppression actually exists. Right now it does nothing -- its either you pop up and kill the enemy 200 meters away or they kill you. With drastic improvements to suppression and weapon sway changes (above), cool features that you guys at TWI spent so much time on such as blindfire and the first person cover system as a whole will finally have a purpose.

5) Make the bolt-action rifle to SMG/MG ratio more historically accurate (see: RO1 levels) where the vast majority of players are using bolt action rifles for both sides. Currently, though it has improved slightly, there are still FAR too many SMGs on the battlefield -- over half last time I checked on a typical 64 player server.

6) Give players any and all equipment that they should have which is historically accurate. In other words, severely reduce or remove altogether the Mkb42, AVT 40, and MP40II (the latter which didn't even see frontline service in any numbers ...). All Russian soldiers should receive the drum magazine for their PPSH by default, as it was almost nearly the only magazine being used for the PPSH at the time. Every soldier with a bolt action rifle should also receive a bayonet, as this was also standard issue for the time. The MG34 should really only have the regular drum magazine -- the double drum mag for that gun was super rare and shouldn't be seen on the battlefield.

7) Player movement needs to have inertia, like in RO1 and other realistic games. Right now players are able to run around like they're in a sci-fi universe -- able to stop, turn, spin around, and fire on a dime like they don't weigh a thing. It needs to take a little extra time to stop and start moving, and actions such as mantling should take a bit longer to perform. Also, movement speed should be slower when running upstairs -- right now it's incredibly unrealistic and basically arcade how fast players are able to sprint up stairways. These changes will slow the pace of combat down to realistic speeds and improve the entire feel of the game -- trust me. Reloads could also stand to be slowed down, (if possible) given that certain guns reload almost comically fast -- especially the box mag reload for the MG34 which is even faster than CoD4 when compared to reloads for LMGs in that game which have box mags!

8) MG34 hipshooting needs to be totally nerfed. I give this its own category because its such a glaring issue. I brought this up countless times during the pre-release beta back in July and I've been dismayed to see the problem actually get worse since that time. The beta forum was extremely against the super-ease of hipshooting this weapon back then, and forum sentiment definitely hasn't changed. I find that MGs as a whole are much more useful in a Rambo role than their intended role as a fire support weapon. This is of course partially due to the fact that suppression fire is not a viable tactic in RO2 (see above: Weapon Sway).

9. Please give us an in-game option to turn off non-native voices. This is a small detail, but it really kills the immersion for me when I hear my character say "Hehe, I think the Germans are ****ting their pants!" (a line probably stolen from Enemy at the Gates) every 5 minutes. If I have to listen to silly B-movie writing, at least force me to listen to it in my soldier's native language. I know there are ways right now to jerry-rig this to have the right voices, but it really does need to be a simple in-game toggle if possible.

10. Tanks. Oh Tanks. Where do I begin? This point really deserves a thread by itself (there are many), but there are a few big changes to tanks that must be made. First, there needs to at least be a server option that allows admins to turn off the AI hull MG gunner for all tanks. It's clear that the AI MG gunners essentially allow players to cheat and the fact that tanks have been removed from most of the populated servers for this very reason should be enough to drive this point home. Second, and this is very general: fix the armor values on the tanks. It's clear that there are some major issues with tanks often taking waaaay too many rounds to destroy -- especially the PzIV. See the other tank threads for details on this. Finally, tank spawning. There needs to be a much larger wait time on tanks respawning in the game. Right now tanks basically pop right back into action after they've been destroyed. This is neither realistic or good for gameplay -- what's the point of destroying a tank when it's going to come back in less than a minute?

:IS2:[/QUOTE]

All of this. Looks like we follow the same train of thought :)
 
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1) Remove the wounding/bandaging system altogether, or improve it. ...
2) Increase general weapon sway. ...
3) Remove or severely nerf the extra "shift zoom" that holding left shift adds. ...
4) Improve the suppression system so that it actually serves a purpose. ...
5) Make the bolt-action rifle to SMG/MG ratio more historically accurate ...
6) Give players any and all equipment that they should have which is historically accurate. ...
7) Player movement needs to have inertia, like in RO1 and other realistic games. ...
8) MG34 hipshooting needs to be totally nerfed. ...
9. Please give us an in-game option to turn off non-native voices. ...
10. McTanks. Oh McTanks. ...
I'd play that. :)
 
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While I agree with hockeywarrior that the max zoom is probably too much, although I would like to see the option kept to only zoom when pressing a button. The default ironsight zoom is too much for me in close combat, and would rather not zoom unless I really want it (even while running).
 
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I agree with HockeyWarrior.
After playing for some more here is a quick list I put together:

- More recoil when firing from the hip, especially when on the move.
I mean really, there needs to be a downside to doing this. EVERYBODY does it, especially on maps like Apartments.
Rambo'ing should be punished and made less useful.

- Make taking aim through iron sights take a bit longer.
This is pretty damn annoying too, because many times you see a player sprinting, stopping and almost instantly bringing up ironsights and firing off accurate shots just as much as you see players run and gun from the hip. This needs to be stopped.
Make it so that when players sprint into danger, their chances of survival drop drastically. Make them stop, go into ironsights, and then, and ONLY then, round a corner.

- Which brings me to the next point: movement inertia.
Right now, if there is any, it is barely noticeable. Add or increase it. You dont just stop dead in your tracks after a full sprint, especially with heavy equipment.

- Increased sway after sprinting!
I can get behind the logic of the current system (making it easier for attackers to overtake defenders) but the way spawn points are set up right now at the start of each map both teams reach the objective at pretty much the same time. There is no time to set up a proper defense, therefor the reason for taking out increased swaying after a sprint becomes is not present anymore.
It hurts the game more than it adds something.

Hopefully this will take out some of the speed at which the game currently takes place, and replaces it with a more mindful, methodical pace.
RO1 was not perfect, and imo hipfiring etc. were still too effective in that game. If there was anything that made me rage in RO it was not the learning curve, it was people who continually sprayed and prayed.
I would want people to slow down, lean and check around corners and then move on.
Both in RO1 and RO2 this is usually not the case, people just sidestrafe a door while spraying their weapon or simply running in and spraying their weapon.
Not only is it unrealistic, it takes out the potential for awesome firefights.

Now for some balance things:

- Take out a squad, so there will be less slots per special role, bringing the rifleman back to the forefront.
Imho even on 64-player servers the game does not need 4 squads.
As it stands right now, on a filled 64-player server there are up to 4 MG slots, 4 Squad leaders, etc etc.
This adds a lot of fully and semi automatic weapons. The ratio of rifles vs semi/fully automatic weapons has improved but imo it is not there yet.
Riflemen need to be up in the forefront while other weapons support, not the other way around.

- Bring back the RMB click to ready the LMG for hipfiring, plus increase the recoil when firing from the hip and reduce movement speed.
This worked perfectly in RO1, and the current system allows for far too many rambo tactics.
In RO1 MG'ers could be cornered and still have a chance without having to set up on cover, making them effective enough at defending themselves. Even if you dont think so, there is still a pistol to switch to which is now more useful than they were in RO1, and they do a fine job.
RO2's system is to open to exploit and run and gun.

- Bring back historical accuracy.
Get rid of the MKB, AVT, MP40/II and other prototype/rare weapons, or make them as rare as they are supposed to be.
At the very most add in a random chance to spawn with such a weapon instead of allowing a player to select it at all times (and preferably make only Heroes able to select it! So that even when there are 4 assault classes, only one of them is a hero and he has a CHANCE to spawn with it).
In all honesty I have been annoyed with the MKB so many times ingame it will never be able to be a situation of 'oh cool, he has an MKB!' now even if I only ever see it once during a match, but if it has to remain ingame than reduce it SEVERELY.

In the end, I would want to say this:
Some things might be realistic but destroy the feeling of realism.
In the end, if it is not perfectly realistic BUT it creates the feeling of a realistic experience, then that is the more important thing to focus on.
The zoom for example might be more realistic from a scientific standpoint and you could say it needs to be ingame for that reason.
And for some people this might reduce the amount of pixelhunting (though in all honesty we are still pixelhunting only at a different range) but it makes it pretty damn easy to hit things, and this results in a lack of proper firefights, which tend to drag out a bit in real life and which is quite awesome ingame.
Project Reality for BF2 is not at all realistic in all of it's features, but the features it has do enforce a realistic gameplay. Weapons arent as accurate there as they are supposed to be, but because of the decreased accuracy it is possible to have awesome firefights.
Make of that what you will.
 
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While I agree with hockeywarrior that the max zoom is probably too much, although I would like to see the option kept to only zoom when pressing a button. The default ironsight zoom is too much for me in close combat, and would rather not zoom unless I really want it (even while running).

I think this is a good suggestion. I'd prefer the choice to zoom over it being used for me. :IS2:
 
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While I agree with hockeywarrior that the max zoom is probably too much, although I would like to see the option kept to only zoom when pressing a button. The default ironsight zoom is too much for me in close combat, and would rather not zoom unless I really want it (even while running).
Yes I agree ... if it were my choice I wouldn't have any zoom at all in ironsights because I don't want it in close quarters.

Before the game released, there was an in-game menu option to customize as much or little zoom as you wanted in regular ironsights for SMGs, rifles, and pistols respectively and it worked really well. Unfortunately it was taken out of the game before the DDE beta (for additional testing?) and it was promised that this feature would make it back in an update, post-release. I'm still not 100% sure why it was removed.
 
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