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Bezerker games

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#41
I have never understood the point of a bezerker class. Anyone that feels like they should be going toe to toe with things with blades for arms deserves a world of hurt. (Of course I understand it from a game fun point of course)

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Something that hasn't been suggested is the stupid stunlock a zerker can get on a scrake. Which can't of been intentional. Due to the zerkers attack speed the scrake just gets stuck in a hit animation rendering it imobile. (Not the same as the stun animation.) I would say drop his speed to that of a medic if not 5% slower. And sort out the stun lock.

Speed for two reasons, there is nothing more annoying as a medic to miss a zerker that needs healing because of bad aiming or spazzing out zerker, to then try and run after him to give a manual jab. Just to have him self heal or die.
 
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#42
ive always seen the zerker as ment to be an anti scrake so i dont see a problem with the stun since the zerker has to keep 100% focus on the scrake or else it will eat his face. In that time the rest of the zeds will be circling him.

Of course obvious response would be that the team is killing those for him which is how it should be, but thats not without risk as just one stray bullet will cause the rythm to get screwed up and the scrake will get off a hit or two. so like i said dont see a problem there.

possible idea i just had but on first page it was mentioned how a zerker could run head on into a siren get screamed at and still be fast enough to run out before the second shot killed them and that they could still kite FP's so here are three possible ideas

1. have Siren scream reduce run speed either for everyone or just zerkers it would have biggest impact on zerkers for everyone else it would cause a few more deaths but it would be those where you would have just BARELY surivied anyways.

2. have FP hits reduce speed of their victim slightly (this might be a bit much but on HoE from my experience if the FP gets close enough and hits you running away is only an option as a Zerker or Medic everyone else just has to pray it gets killed before it swings again or someone body blocks them.

3. implement acceleration for players with speed increases, dont think it even needs to be much maybe just a second to get to full speed.
 
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#43
I think this is ultimately NOT about the berserker being overpowered or whatever. That isn't why people hate him so much or complain on these forums about it when there are other team compositions that do the job just as easily or easier. In a group setting support specialist is clearly stronger, and nowhere near as many people complain about that as they complain about the berserker.

there are two main issues that I think people have with the berserker:

  1. They don't like playing the class, and you really have no option but to join the other zerkers in kiting games.
  2. They don't like waiting in spec while a berkerker(s) kites around the map and takes up to a half hour to finish the wave.
#1 is why we see so many people complain here about how ever HoE game is becoming a zerkerfest. This is a fair point, as it is becoming common, but I don't think this is as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I'd say 60% of the games have three or more support specialists, and I personally prefer moving around the map over corner camping with shotguns any day of the week. To each is own I guess, and while not rare, the berserker teams are definitely not taking over every single game.

#2 is also a fair point and something that I think everyone can agree is an issue. TWI just has to be careful with the nerf here. You want something that makes this much harder to do, but don't want something that renders him useless in the process.

So I think if we address these two issues there won't be any more complaining about the class here. I honestly don't see anything wrong with part 1 since 5 support ans a demo can do the job just as easily in a third of the time. I won't be against bringing the zerker back to his old stats and maybe changing the fleshpound rage mechanics, though. I just don't want the class nerfed to the point where he is absolutely useless, which is what I fear since berserker is probably my favorite class to play. :cool:
 
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#44
Fixing the "problems" is not hard, but the question is, what should really be done?

Is Berserker/Medic kiting-teams something intended? I mean, it's coop, isn't it? If the kiting team is not to be considered a 100% legit way to play it, then there are easy solutions:

1) Fix the Fleshpounds rage-mechanics so no kiting can be done. The Zerker is supposed to be a trashkiller / tank anyway, not a "heavy killer", right (Scrake being the exception)?
EDIT: Things that can be included:
a) No "missed swing" rage timer reset
b) No rage reset by breaking Line of Sight
c) Make the Fleshpounds rage faster and faster the longer the time has gone between each raging, maybe even towards the point that if left unattacked/kited for way too long, the FP becomes permanently raged?
2) Reduce the Zerker's (and Medic's) runspeeds drastically. It's the main reason you can kite so easily. I'd say, leave them at 15%-ish at level 6. Kiting would be way harder then, if possible at all (consider this + the Fleshpounds mechanic changes = dead ramboing Zerker / death to the kiting playstyle). But keep the damage resistance at least at 35%-ish, it encourages the perk as the frontline tank.

If the Berserker/Medic kiting-teams are considered a legit/intended way of playing the game, then leave it be. It basicly just comes down to those 2 questions anyway...

While we players definitely are a big voice in all this, isn't that a choice for TWI to make?
 
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#46
Aze said:
Reduce the Zerker's (and Medic's) runspeeds drastically. It's the main reason you can kite so easily. I'd say, leave them at 15%-ish at level 6. Kiting would be way harder then, if possible at all (consider this + the Fleshpounds mechanic changes = dead ramboing Zerker / death to the kiting playstyle). But keep the damage resistance at least at 35%-ish, it encourages the perk as the frontline tank.
Click to expand...

For the people that dislike the berserkers current build, this is exactly the point I made earlier!!

Keeping the damage resistance means he can remain comfortably in the face of the specimens (despite the blades/chainsaws/blenders for arms), which is how the berserker is supposed to be.

Yet nerfing the nerf speed means that kiting becomes significantly less effective, without destroying a berserkers usefulness in a team situation!

I'm always careful about discussing big changes like AI and specimen mechanics, because you might fix one issue, whilst causing a bigger issue elsewhere.

I'm still a big fan of the berserker class, so it is hard for me to discuss nerfing him, however I am aware that even players who have rarely played berserker are able to kill the strongest specimens in the game on their own, which is slightly ludicrous in terms of balance.

The berserker needs to be built in a way, so that experience and skill allow you achieve results instead of just the perk itself. Similar to the sharpshooter!
 
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#49
Zoridium JackL said:
my reason for not liking the zerker games isn't because i hate waiting or don't like playing the class, it's that it discourages team play and encourages solo play, and i do prefer to play SS with a team than Zerker on my own.
Click to expand...

Hence my first point of just not liking the class. I should've specified that I meant both of them don't have to apply. :p

I actually wouldn't mind a slight nerf to the berserker, since I personally find kiting games to be a little bit too easy (just as support specialist games, but that's another story). I say change the fleshpound rage mechanics so it doesn't reset, decrease his speed to medic levels, and lower his damage resistance from 40% (or whatever it's at now) to maybe 25-30% or so. The only problem I fear is is people will still complain about the zerker since there will still be kiting games, and a Rambo, non-team oriented zerker will still be the last one alive. I see this as bad play, though. It's the equivalent of a support specialist welding himself safely in a room while the rest of his squad dies. Just kick those types of players. Also maybe make the chainsaw more viable for team-play? Dunno.

I think a lot of the people here are in denial; the kiting games really aren't a problem. If they were 60-70% of the total games then maybe, but I find one out of every five or six HoE games is made up of kiting zerkers, and that really isn't too bad imo. There are still plenty of games for everyone.
 
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#50
Steeps said:
Hence my first point of just not liking the class. I should've specified that I meant both of them don't have to apply. :p

I actually wouldn't mind a slight nerf to the berserker, since I personally find kiting games to be a little bit too easy (just as support specialist games, but that's another story). I say change the fleshpound rage mechanics so it doesn't reset, decrease his speed to medic levels, and lower his damage resistance from 40% (or whatever it's at now) to maybe 25-30% or so. The only problem I fear is is people will still complain about the zerker since there will still be kiting games, and a Rambo, non-team oriented zerker will still be the last one alive. I see this as bad play, though. It's the equivalent of a support specialist welding himself safely in a room while the rest of his squad dies. Just kick those types of players. Also maybe make the chainsaw more viable for team-play? Dunno.

I think a lot of the people here are in denial; the kiting games really aren't a problem. If they were 60-70% of the total games then maybe, but I find one out of every five or six HoE games is made up of kiting zerkers, and that really isn't too bad imo. There are still plenty of games for everyone.
Click to expand...

you misunderstand me, i have nothing against playing the class, i quite enjoy it sometimes, but i don't want to be forced into it, i don't want to be completely helpless if i chose to play any other class, and that's only part of it, i also hate it because in zerker games there is barely any teamwork, just the common goal of keeping in motion and kiting, not fun if you ask me, and it counteracts the while point of this being a team play game, sure not wanting to play zerker all the time factors into it, but if that were my only problem with it i wouldn't care about it.

also, to deny that there is a problem is outright bull****, the class is not only easy to kite with, it encourages solo play while making team play difficult and impractical, and you seem think that 20% isn't a lot, it is when you only get a small number of games under 100 ping, like quite a few people (myself included) and your options are limited further by map and wave number, an i really don't want to wait to koin a server just to find that i am going to be pigeon holed into a particular class, and then not get to enjoy the teamwork experience that i lay online for.

so to sum it up, i couldn't care less about playing zerker, its fun sometimes, what i have a problem with is being made to play the game like i would solo when i went online specifically to play with a team.
 
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#53
Zoridium JackL said:
you misunderstand me, i have nothing against playing the class, i quite enjoy it sometimes, but i don't want to be forced into it, i don't want to be completely helpless if i chose to play any other class
Click to expand...

Actually I had some games in a zerker (there were like 4 zerkers, 1 medic in it when I joined) server yesterday and defiantly picking anything but zerker seems to force them into picking something else and encourages newcomers to pick something besides zerker too.
After a short while, there was a full server with only 1 berserker in it who kept urging everyone else to pick zerker if they wanted to live, then died, then blamed his death on everyone except himself.

I'll try that again when I come across a server full of zerkers which might take a while which is funny because I'm in "europe" too just like the OP so I should have the same server selection (in before "y u play normal").
 
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#54
i'm all for fixing zerker without nerf, but i really don't think it's possible, the class itself is keyed towards rambo, thats the problem, not that its too good, but that there is little to no reason to play it in a team situation, im not sayong that the perk is bad, it isn't, im not saying i don't like playing it, i do, i'm just saying, that if you go online you are almost 100% going to be looking to play with a team, if everyone is zerker, then why bother? there isn't going to be any team play, im also not for 6 support teams, which someone seems to be implying (yes i mean you steepy) i play SS mostly, and i would rather play with a varied team were everyone plays their favorite perk and works together as a team, but as it stands, if one person likes to play zerker, they either choose something else, or they go solo, because zerker is the worst perk to use in a team situation, even though it is possible, it's just that much easier to go solo as zerker.

Tl;Dr: stop assuming you know my motivations or those of the majority, never claim to speak or know a majority, because you are not the majority, you will never be the majority, just part of it, if you see no problem with zerker class, you are blind.

P.S. the zerker class is not only broken for the people who don't play it, but for the people who do, enjoy not getting a great team experience when playing your favorite perk.
 
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#55
What I'm beginning to see in this thread is a lose-lose situation.

I agree with Steeps: If the ramboing and all-Zerker teams are the problem, then a nerf won't fix that. It'll just make all-zerker teams and rambos die more often. This is under the assumption that the hypothetical nerf will just slightly weaken him, and not throw him into straight up weaksauce realm. If the latter becomes the case, no one's going to be playing Berserker anymore.

Also, I keep seeing the assumption that Berserker is strongest on his own and weakest when playing on a team. If that's so, nerf still won't fix that. It'll just make him less good at solo and horribad in a team.

Zoridium JackL said:
if one person likes to play zerker, they either choose something else, or they go solo, because zerker is the worst perk to use in a team situation, even though it is possible, it's just that much easier to go solo as zerker.
Click to expand...
P.S. the zerker class is not only broken for the people who don't play it, but for the people who do, enjoy not getting a great team experience when playing your favorite perk.
Click to expand...
Then it seems your issue with the Berserker isn't necessarily his stats (which nerfs could theoretically fix), but his very design (which nerfs won't fix). He's meant to get in zombies' faces and hack them up while the team with guns shoot them from range.

So, I don't know what to suggest, really. You say people should play their favorite class, even if it's Berserker, but since Berserker is weak in a team game he'll have to go solo and not enjoy the teamwork.

In short, I'm just confused as to what, exactly, you want done to the Berserker.
 
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#56
Zoridium JackL said:
the class itself is keyed towards rambo,
Click to expand...

That's actually not true. The Berserker has value in teamplay, due to 2 things:
1) His resistance. He is the tank. Put 1 or 2 Berserkers in a oneway doorway with your team behind you and see how many enemies will get past. Not only can the Zerker take some more hits than others standing there, but they are also very strong trashkillers
2) Scrake stunning. Give the camping Zerker an Axe and he can do 2 things to help with impending Scrakes.
a) Headshot the Scrake with an altfire axe. Stunned.
b) Attack the Scrake with primary or secondary to the back of the Scrake. Stunned.

But what is the MAIN thing that makes the Zerker so good at ramboing and kiting? Movement speed. He has 30% melee movement speed bonus. That is just ridiculously much, and you don't need that much speed when you are playing with a camping team! Nerf it to 10 or 15% and leave his resistances and he won't outrun most specimen so easily (same with Medic) and you force the Zerker to be more of a frontline trashkiller + Scrakehandler, while still being a better damagesponge than the others. The thing the Zerker SHOULD be (from a camping teamplay PoV).
 
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#57
You say that nerfing the berserker wont stop the kiting, just make them fail more. Isn't that basically the same thing?

If something becomes less effective, people will stop doing it and move on if it has a low win/success %. This is how ideas and play styles come and go.

When considering these nerfs, just please remember the berserker is supposed to be in the face of the specimens as I have previously mentioned! Dont take that away from him!

The question is -
How to nerf kiting?
While not destroying the berserker.

PS. Anyone else get the idea this thread is going around and around in circles?
:)
 
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#59
#54 so you've never seen berserkers use teamwork before? No wonder you hate them so much...

When I play berserker I always work with my team. Most berserkers that I play with work with their team as well. Teamwork is VERY possible with the perk, and since a squad working together is always better than a person soloing, regardless of the perk, teamwork actually is encouraged. I've also seen the following on HoE: sharpshooters who spam handcannons or m14 at a fleshpound's chest, support specialists who waste 10 AA12 shots firing at a single clot and then run out of ammo halfway through the wave, commandos who rage fleshpounds and scrakes, demos who basically kill nothing and blind the team with smoke, firebugs who also blind the team and waste all of their ammo on scrakes and husks, and medics who barely heal, don't block fleshpounds and spend most of the game firing at crawlers with the mp7.

My point? These are examples of bad play and not problems with the perk. The same with a rambo zerker; it is always easier to stick with a team than to run off and do your own thing. Teamwork is naturally encouraged with the game, and a zerker who just runs off is a poor player like any of the other examples I mentioned above. If this is a problem you're probably best off kicking these types of players. I'm not sure how common these players are in Australia or any other region that I don't play in, but where I play the good zerkers greatly outnumber the bad ones. I'm not quite sure if I can say that about every other perk, especially medics.

#57 I don't think it will limit the zerker kiting teams because it doesn't hurt them too much. It just makes the game slightly less forgiving. As you said to completely destroy these games you'll have to basically turn the zerker into firebug 2.0 i.e. make him weak to the point where no one wants to use him. Plus is this really fair to those who enjoy the kiting games? I guess the ability to disable certain perks on servers would be the best option overall.

For the record I won't mind a slight nerf to the berserker. :cool:
 
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