Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

[9_6]

Guys, guys,
wanna read something funny?

Medic:
- Reduced the Medic run speed bonus by 5% to bring it in line with the
Berserker

So are you even sure the zerker runs faster than the medic?
Maybe the perk description is a leftover from the first beta patch cause if I remember correctly, that extra runspeed didn't even make it past round 1.

 

[scary ghost]

@9_6

Also, medic with his +25% speed bonus moves at a comparable speed to a zerker with his +30% melee speed. If you go through the code and work out the values, zerker has a speed rating of 274 and medic at 267 if both have the knife oout and are at 15/15 blocks. On Suicidal/HoE though, the medic's speed bonus is reduced to 20% thus only has a speed rating of 256 under the same conditions.

The patch notes are probably just copied over from the beta and are incomplete really. They fail to account for the zerker's speed buff and fail to mention that the medic's speed nerf only applies to suicidal and HoE.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Interesting, so its 10% difference. Scary Ghost blows my mind once agian

 

[9_6]

Well that fell under the radar pretty quick as soon as everyone licked some zerker blood.
Looks like a knee-jerk fix for zerdics when other things concerning it have been adjusted already.

Those changes that only apply to harder difficulties don't help.
Especially if they're nowhere to be mentioned and subtle enough not to notice.

If we lose this and the 5% of the zerker too (aka do what the changelog claims), there should at least be no more complaints concerning movement speeds.
Right?

 

[Undedd Jester]

Especially if they're nowhere to be mentioned and subtle enough not to notice.

If we lose this and the 5% of the zerker too (aka do what the changelog claims), there should at least be no more complaints concerning movement speeds.
Right?

As long as the Zerker is actively encouraged to stay with his team and work together with other players instead of going off rambo and it actually working, yeah sure, complaint is over.

And on this point J*'s got a story for you all

Spoiler!

To put this issue in perspective, I played a game on West London yesterday. My server was full so I oined another server running West London with about 4 players. When I connected most of the team had died and a few seconds later all of them rage quit with just 1 zerker running around kiting all the zeds. I waited out a very long round by which time a full team of players had joined too. Decided I'd play Sharpshooter.

Long story short the Zerker shared very little money and 3 players got nuked right off the bat, the 4th wasn't far to follow. So there was me as Sharpshooter and this 1 Berserker with a pretty big coleciton of enemies left to go. Despite the fact my class wasn't good at running this player started running away, further than he needed to, so knowing full well my class limitations I followed as best I could.

Being constantly pressed and with only enough money to carry my Xbow and pistol I found constant spawns of gorefasts, crawlers, bloats and clots bearing down on me slowly whittling me down... After about a minute of constant pressure I was in desperate need of some cover and healing time/team heals.

All the time through I had kept checking where this Zerker was, following behind him. I saw him essentially wandering ahead of me as I tried to beat things back given my slower movement speed. I assumed he was clearing things ahead of me so that I wouldn't get attacked from behind... the problem was I was still getting attacked from behind (only saved by my spatial awareness and natural check between reloads) and at no point did he come up to heal me or anything. Upon closer inspection I realised his kill count had barely moved this entire minute, and when I glanced at him a little longer I realised he was really just watching me, as if waiting for something.

I quickly realised what was going on.

This player was basically wandering ahead and waiting for me to die so he could start his kiting run all over again against the 6 player strong wave, the reason I assume the previous team raged out. Due to my wounded state I couldn't stop to say anything, and sure enough I was taken down by that 1 crawler too many.

I raged straight off the server. This is the problem, the Zerker doesn't need anyones help anymore, and it sickens me that there are people who actually get rewarded for this kind of appauling display.

So whatever is done, I REALLY want to see the Zerker as part of the team, not a solo survivor. In my mind it goes against the governing principle of not just Killing Floor, but any class based game ever made.

 

[Deafmute]

^ Happened to me earlier today.

 

[Undedd Jester]

^ Happened to me earlier today.

Seriously? Jesus christ. We need a name for these people, cause I don't think asshats is going to cut it...

Super-crappa-phuckerriffic-retard-arsehole-zerkers?

Whatever they are we're infested with em

 

[9_6]

So this is a personal vendetta thing now? :U

As long as the Zerker is actively encouraged to stay with his team and work together with other players instead of going off rambo and it actually working, yeah sure, complaint is over.

That is not gonna happen unless the perk is completely redesigned.
How? I have no idea but wailing away on his movespeed alone won't, that'll just make the perk obsolete at some point.
My guess is that point lies at about 15%. That should be when you can't even keep up with gorefasts on hard anymore.
I said it before, there is no room for a zerker in a team unless he's set to guard that one hallway on its own.
Otherwise, you're more valuable picking something else.

 

[Undedd Jester]

So this is a personal vendetta thing now? :U

Say what? I've been calling the Zerker up on being overpowered for about a week now, and this happened yesterday

If anything it just proves my point, its like the Berserker actually benefits from leaving his teammates to die. I mean did you totally miss my post when I wrote this?

What throws me is this arguement that the Berserker has no place in the team. This is the kind of mentality that ruins killing floor. Can noone else see the value of a class that takes the hits for the rest of his team so the other classes find it easier for them to survive?

I mean if the Berserker is the only class taking damage that means the Medic can 100% focus his attention on him, also making the Medics life alot less challenging.

Far as the Zerker is concerned at the very least the Fleshpound rage mechanics needs fixing so that when LoS is lost at a distance the rage counter only pauses, doesn't reset, and he rages naturally after taking so much damage to his health (perhaps with 33% remaining.)

Damage resistance I feel is a tad high, but thats fine, thats useful to the team, so I'm willing to compromise there. But I would like to see his speed dropped back down to a sensible value to encourage him to actually help his teammates rather than jsut be the class to go rambo "because thats all he can do".

 

[nutterbutter]

So whatever is done, I REALLY want to see the Zerker as part of the team, not a solo survivor. In my mind it goes against the governing principle of not just Killing Floor, but any class based game ever made.

When they started the balancing talk I posted the most important question http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=639611&postcount=127 "What perks can reasonably solo the FP on hard and suicidal." and I think that question is still the most important one.

TWI has continually set the game so that the zerker, which includes the medic because of the speed, is the only class that can repeatedly solo the FP. Demo and support, and to a lesser extent all classes, can also solo the FP with a huge caveat. They require consumables that will very rapidly expire while the zerker and medic can use weapons that do not require consumables.

Speed is the key. Speed is the great unequalizer of the classes. Speed provides the survivability of the zerker and medic and speed provides a much better weapon than any weapon in the game. Think I am kidding? Would you rather have an aa12 or 25% faster speed as support? Would you rather have an m32 or 25% faster speed as a demo? And the list goes on. Right now the classes are not balanced and speed is the reason.

 

[timur]

When they started the balancing talk I posted the most important question [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=639611&postcount=127[/URL] "What perks can reasonably solo the FP on hard and suicidal." and I think that question is still the most important one.

TWI has continually set the game so that the zerker, which includes the medic because of the speed, is the only class that can repeatedly solo the FP. Demo and support, and to a lesser extent all classes, can also solo the FP with a huge caveat. They require consumables that will very rapidly expire while the zerker and medic can use weapons that do not require consumables.

Speed is the key. Speed is the great unequalizer of the classes. Speed provides the survivability of the zerker and medic and speed provides a much better weapon than any weapon in the game. Think I am kidding? Would you rather have an aa12 or 25% faster speed as support? Would you rather have an m32 or 25% faster speed as a demo? And the list goes on. Right now the classes are not balanced and speed is the reason.

Yet speed is pointless without the clot grab break, and ineffective if it can't deal damage, which is why I am not seeing the medic run speed as a threat here. I am not saying that I believe the zerker should be nerfed or not, just that I believe that the medic has finally reached balance (so no need for collateral damage here, fellas)

 

[Undedd Jester]

Speed is the key. Speed is the great unequalizer of the classes. Speed provides the survivability of the zerker and medic and speed provides a much better weapon than any weapon in the game. Think I am kidding? Would you rather have an aa12 or 25% faster speed as support? Would you rather have an m32 or 25% faster speed as a demo? And the list goes on. Right now the classes are not balanced and speed is the reason.

Agreed although the Medic cannot solo HoE anymore, no matter what his loadout is. Unless he is EXTREMELY lucky with a left over pipe bomb or something he cannot beat a Scrake, and even then its tough. The 75% health rage and the fact the Medic cannot stun a Scrake will nail the Medic every time, because unlike the FP, the Scrake doesn't stop raging unitl either you are dead or he is.

Fleshpounds can be exploited because of their rage mechanics, but asusming the FP is fixed for the Berserker he is then summarily fixed for the Medic also.

Couple this with the clot grab and a HoE Medics life is a short lived one solo, so this Medic problem is pretty much fixed.

These issues however aren't present for the Zerker, and this is my point.l The Medic cannot do it anymore, the Zerker can, so something needs to be done to change that.

 

[9_6]

@Undedd Jester: So you essentially said no one sees the value in what you reduce to a punching bag?
Newsflash: Tanking does not work in this game. It won't go well for the tank in the long run.
Instead of a sandbag, you might want to have another gun so the zombies won't be getting close enough to you to need one in the first place.

It's pretty infuriating that, on the one hand, you're outraged of the concept that the berserker moves well and thus is well suited for ramboing and then propose that its only use should be to be a perfectly static slab of meat for pounds to wail away on.
Do I even have to begin to explain to you how brutally unfun being the punching bag with no weapons worth anything and no other function beyond being the punching bag, watching as your teammates keep killing the enemies well out of the range of the weapons you actually get bonuses for is?
And how ineffective, for that matter?

 

[Eureka]

As long as the Zerker is actively encouraged to stay with his team and work together with other players instead of going off rambo and it actually working, yeah sure, complaint is over.

I've been playing Berserker more and more lately- I used to hate it but now that I have a better feel for the maps and cadence of the game I'm enjoying it as a different play style. This issue, of the Berserker's role, is a complicated one. Part of it is game mechanics- by definition, Berserkers need to be able to survive in the thick of things, which makes it almost impossible to have a balanced berserker who does not excel at solo survival.

However, part of it is also player interactions, especially on the part of the rest of the team. When I'm playing a Berserker, I am often frustrated at having the target I'm running towards gunned down by a distant Sharpshooter or Commando.

For now, I've found a reasonably fair system for determining how close I fight to the rest of the team: I fight far enough away that no one is killing enemies before I reach them. Note I say "killing" and not "shooting". I've had some good games teamed up with a Firebug who weakens the oncoming mob which then falls shredded to my blade. At the same time, when the clot I'm running up to dies from a crossbow bolt, that's a good sign I'm too close to the team. If the team is disciplined and focuses fire elsewhere, I'm happy to orbit nearby- recently I had a good game in Manor, where I patrolled the rear caves while the rest of the team fought from the front/boathouse area of the caves. We were close enough to support each other and act as a team without getting on each others' toes.

 

[Undedd Jester]

@Undedd Jester: So you essentially said no one sees the value in what you reduce to a punching bag?
Newsflash: Tanking does not work in this game. It won't go well for the tank in the long run.
Instead of a sandbag, you might want to have another gun so the zombies won't be getting close to you.

It's pretty infuriating that, on the one hand, you're outraged of the concept that the berserker moves well and thus is well suited for ramboing and then propose that its only use should be to be a perfectly static slab of meat for pounds to wail away from.
Do I even have to begin to explain to you how brutally unfun being the punching bag with no weapons worth anything and no other function beyond being the punching bag is?

So your arguement is becaues rambo is more fun than working with your team it should be what the perk is all about?

Are you seriously not grasping this concept?

He isn't just a punching bag is he? As we have seen he can kill a good majority of specimens with great efficiency.

Plus Berserkers don't just stand and take damage if they have the slightest lick of sense, they move forward and backwards to dodge attacks and strike before the enemy does. Your supposed to kill specimens before they reach, not let them wail on your *** for a few minutes. The damage resistance is there to help you do your job, not be the sole reason for your existance.

My point is he should serve his role of being up at the front line holding specimens back so the rest of his team don't have to deal with them up in their face. Think of when a Medic tanks, but then throw in the ability to kill specimens pretty rapidly as well. Does that seriously sound useless to you?

I mean I have alot of respect for you dude, but its starting to get to the point where it just sounds like your deliberately trying to prove every point I make is worthless

 

[Eureka]

My point is he should serve his role of being up at the front line holding specimens back so the rest of his team don't have to deal with them up in their face. Think of when a Medic tanks, but then throw in the ability to kill specimens pretty rapidly as well. Does that seriously sound useless to you?

This would be great. I do find it much easier to tank as Medic than as Berserker, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Sometimes I'll even stand in front of the team (if it's camping somewhere) and put my back to the enemies so I can heal the team from in front while also acting as bait. Maybe I'm just not good enough with Berserker yet (quite likely, in fact) but I have a much harder time holding the line offensively than defensively.

 

[nutterbutter]

Yet speed is pointless without the clot grab break, and ineffective if it can't deal damage, which is why I am not seeing the medic run speed as a threat here. I am not saying that I believe the zerker should be nerfed or not, just that I believe that the medic has finally reached balance (so no need for collateral damage here, fellas)

I think the magnetic clot grab is game breaking but I disagree with you about speed being ineffective if it can't deal damage. Player 'A' may only have the ability to do a third of the damage of Player 'B', but if he is alive longer than Player 'B' then he can out-damage Player 'B.'

Medic needed the speed because he needed to heal other players, but with the addition of the mp7, the extra speed isn't warranted.

 

[9_6]

My point is he should serve his role of being up at the front line holding specimens back so the rest of his team don't have to deal with them up in their face. Think of when a Medic tanks, but then throw in the ability to kill specimens pretty rapidly as well. Does that seriously sound useless to you?

I mean I have alot of respect for you dude, but its starting to get to the point where it just sounds like your deliberately trying to prove every point I make is worthless

And is my point that hard to grasp?

That is not gonna happen unless the perk is completely redesigned.
How? I have no idea but wailing away on his movespeed alone won't, that'll just make the perk obsolete at some point.
My guess is that point lies at about 15%. That should be when you can't even keep up with gorefasts on hard anymore.
I said it before, there is no room for a zerker in a team unless he's set to guard that one hallway on its own.
Otherwise, you're more valuable picking something else.

You will never reach that goal this way because there will always be rambos and because it's not inherently a "speed" problem but a player problem.
If he wants to run off, he will, if he's "too slow to run off" as a zerker then you have just broken the perk.
Broken.

In the end, what you said is you'll never be content with any sort of slight adjustment because there'll always be douchebags, thus whatever compromise we can come up with will never be good enough because you simply want nothing short of the impossible.

So your arguement is becaues rambo is more fun than working with your team it should be what the perk is all about?

Goddamnit, my argument is that somehow magically forcing the berserker into a team without breaking it is an impossibility because all its qualities, every single thing right down to the fact that other perks have bonuses for ranged weapons and you have to run up to enemies, and the fact that you can and will block the views and shots of others if you're "on the frontline" (unless you're far away enough to be technically ramboing) and are doing your "don't get hit" dance because this is not starcraft where you can just "put some melee in front of your ranged" and be done with it, is better suited for solo operations.

 

[timur]

I think the magnetic clot grab is game breaking but I disagree with you about speed being ineffective if it can't deal damage. Player 'A' may only have the ability to do a third of the damage of Player 'B', but if he is alive longer than Player 'B' then he can out-damage Player 'B.'

Medic needed the speed because he needed to heal other players, but with the addition of the mp7, the extra speed isn't warranted.

Yes, but if Player A dies about the same time from clot grab or scrakes...you see, its not really a "speed=OP" situation anymore. I know, Ive tried kiting as a med since the beta when my team dies and it almost never works any better than any other class. With the lowered damage, it takes muuuch longer to kill things, which greatly increases your chance of a single clot touching you. And once that happens...Bingo, your done!

As for your second point, I find that quite untrue. The MP79 is buggy as hell, the syringe is often required when both your shots hit an invisible wall 5 feet from the player, and often times the team is spread out or around corners; unless you are in a tight, compact space, then you will probably need the speed to get from injured player to injured player quickly. But of course, whenever would you run into a team that isnt perfectly aligned in a straight line to heal?

Don't go near the medic, please.

 

[RainbowCakez]

As long as the Zerker is actively encouraged to stay with his team and work together with other players instead of going off rambo and it actually working, yeah sure, complaint is over.

And on this point J*'s got a story for you all

Spoiler!

To put this issue in perspective, I played a game on West London yesterday. My server was full so I oined another server running West London with about 4 players. When I connected most of the team had died and a few seconds later all of them rage quit with just 1 zerker running around kiting all the zeds. I waited out a very long round by which time a full team of players had joined too. Decided I'd play Sharpshooter.

Long story short the Zerker shared very little money and 3 players got nuked right off the bat, the 4th wasn't far to follow. So there was me as Sharpshooter and this 1 Berserker with a pretty big coleciton of enemies left to go. Despite the fact my class wasn't good at running this player started running away, further than he needed to, so knowing full well my class limitations I followed as best I could.

Being constantly pressed and with only enough money to carry my Xbow and pistol I found constant spawns of gorefasts, crawlers, bloats and clots bearing down on me slowly whittling me down... After about a minute of constant pressure I was in desperate need of some cover and healing time/team heals.

All the time through I had kept checking where this Zerker was, following behind him. I saw him essentially wandering ahead of me as I tried to beat things back given my slower movement speed. I assumed he was clearing things ahead of me so that I wouldn't get attacked from behind... the problem was I was still getting attacked from behind (only saved by my spatial awareness and natural check between reloads) and at no point did he come up to heal me or anything. Upon closer inspection I realised his kill count had barely moved this entire minute, and when I glanced at him a little longer I realised he was really just watching me, as if waiting for something.

I quickly realised what was going on.

This player was basically wandering ahead and waiting for me to die so he could start his kiting run all over again against the 6 player strong wave, the reason I assume the previous team raged out. Due to my wounded state I couldn't stop to say anything, and sure enough I was taken down by that 1 crawler too many.

I raged straight off the server. This is the problem, the Zerker doesn't need anyones help anymore, and it sickens me that there are people who actually get rewarded for this kind of appauling display.

So whatever is done, I REALLY want to see the Zerker as part of the team, not a solo survivor. In my mind it goes against the governing principle of not just Killing Floor, but any class based game ever made.

Oh, that is just awful. Too bad Friendly Fire wasn't on, you could've sniped his butt...
Poor Jester. Have an e-cookie for that person's jerkness. *Gives cookie*