Important: Way too accurate aim for every soldier!

ptx said:

It's outrageous that a WW2 simple soldier with a rifle nails me straight through the head when I'm in cover from a kilometer away,

rifles weren't half as accurate as they are today

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there are no Kilometer long distance in the game that anybody can snipe at you from.

Rifles are by definition VERY, VERY accurate, the long barrel and long cartridge holding more powder propelling that bullet faster - and longer then your run of the mill assault rifle, which have shorter barrels and smaller cartridges.

and, In fact, because people are more accurate, COVER is MORE IMPORTANT then ever, and if you can't notice that aspect, your ignoring a key part of warfare - to be seen is to be shot! if your putting round down on the enemy, are you really surprised that they return fire back at you?

new drinking game: when anybody starts saying that people are too accurate, drink a shot!

Adonis Aelus said:

and, In fact, because people are more accurate, COVER is MORE IMPORTANT then ever, and if you can't notice that aspect, your ignoring a key part of warfare - to be seen is to be shot! if your putting round down on the enemy, are you really surprised that they return fire back at you?

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No, cover would be just as important if they inplemented realistic sway to the game. As of present, the sway, or lack thereof, is unrealistic. In fact, didnt tripwire say they wanted to make the game easier for newcomers by lowering sway? What is the point of making a realistic shooter if you're going to dumb it down for newcomers? Correct me if I'm wrong.

+1million to the OP

there are no firefights in this game, everyone dies as soon as they are spotted, apparently soldiers in ww2 could hit targets at 150-200m first time whilst being shot at, after sprinting for 50m. Changed that are needed are...

- Increase weapon sway
- Increase the amount of weapon sway when being suppressed
- Stamina should take longer to recharge
- The longer you hold your breath the longer it should take for stamina to come back
- The accuracy differences between standing, crouch and prone should be changed by a fair bit

If you made these changes the game would be a lot more fun (including more realistic). People would stay alive for a longer time. Frontlines would develop instead of the randomness of battles we have now. People would be more likely to actually stick together rather than solo. Camping would no longer be the best tactic in the game as stopping the enemy wouldn't be as simple as sitting in a window anymore. Suppression tactics would be valid and players would have to concentrate fire to kill enemies.

People may not agree with me on how to achieve this type of gameplay, but surely this is what we all want? or do we want the cod type gameplay we have now? serious question.

Accuracy seems fine. 6-10 inch groups at 100m while standing unsupported are pretty standard for rifles, more than enough to guarantee hits on a human size target. Increasing the sway to increase the target acquisition time would be alright though. There's definitely not a problem with weapon accuracy but target acquisition might be too fast. Increased sway would change that but prone and braced sway are fine. Really its just standing/crouching unsupported while low on stamina/supressed that should be changed.

MadRhetoric said:

Accuracy seems fine. 6-10 inch groups at 100m while standing unsupported are pretty standard for rifles, more than enough to guarantee hits on a human size target. Increasing the sway to increase the target acquisition time would be alright though. There's definitely not a problem with weapon accuracy but target acquisition might be too fast. Increased sway would change that but prone and braced sway are fine. Really its just standing/crouching unsupported while low on stamina/supressed that should be changed.

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Exactly, gun accuracy is fine- you said it best.

Its the fast target acquisition and lack of twitch/sway 4 ironsites thats the issue.

there are no firefights in this game, everyone dies as soon as they are spotted

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+111

Weapons, especially rifles need a lot more sway, especially after running. I agree that firefights are over so fast in this game because of this. Which makes the most important aspect of the game dull.

I have to agree with you guys

In RO:Ost, you were stuck in a middle of a firefight who lasted perhaps 5 whole minutes, before you can find a way to bypass it.
In RO: 2, it's about 15 seconds before you're killed or you kill the enemy.

Target acquisition is the key here. It takes me 2 seconds to adjust an enemy with a bolt action rifle. It's damn too quick.

I agree accuarcy is way to good in the game, not that the weapons were bad, but the soldiers were tierd, adrenalin running through their blood also factor of fear was in, what made it more difficult to aim.

We can't excpect players to live through these emotions and feelings, but there should be build in factor in form of bigger weapon sway for harder targeting, also holding breath won't steady the weapon compleatly.

In standing position with out support it should be 50m easy target and up to 100m avarage, while in crouch up to 150m easy 200m avarage prone 300m easy and up to that avarage hits.

In the supression I find it too easy to aim and hit targets. Thats why there should be even greater weapon sway while beeing supressed or the characters I.E should die in heartattack because the overflow of adrenalin for beeing in that area to long. Then it would be even more essential to move from that position or take cover

Sardukar said:

there are no firefights in this game, everyone dies as soon as they are spotted,

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Well, you guys wanted a realistic shooting game. That's what you got. Welcome to "Real Life Firefights 101".

ptx said:

Sorry, but that is BS.
Firefights do exist, more often than we'd like them to exist in real life, a small fire fight including a group of 3 soldiers vs 3~ untrained soldiers can easily last 10 minutes.
Stop being naive, the fact the game has nice ballistics and sound effects doesn't make it realistic.

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What are you on about?

In real life, if you can be seen, you can be shot. Firefights only exist out to ranges where the soldiers can't make direct visual contact with the enemy. Tactical maneuvering is basically -designed- to get you close enough to your enemies (without being seen yourself) to make direct visual contact and kill them.

In real life, if you can see it, you can kill it. The reason it takes so many bullets to kill one person in real life is because they can't actually see what they're shooting at. They may see muzzle flashes, or hear gunfire coming from a direction, but they can't see the actual person doing the shooting. So, they need to suppress the target, pin him down and prevent him from escaping or returning fire effectively, and then close with him and kill him. Real life firefights don't last long because the soldiers can't hit what their aiming at, they last long because they can't -find- what to shoot at.

At ranges like what's represented in-game, where visual contact is easy to make, firefights are over -very- quickly.

ptx said:

Sadly, you're not only arguing with facts, that sometimes soldiers can't hit (AKA MISS) the targets they are trying to hit, but also arguing with history it self. The maps in the game represent real life battlefields, and in those battlefields there were fire fights that lasted for hours. Especially in WW2, the fact that you can see an enemy clearly from 200 meters doesn't mean you can hit him, and it's the same way in modern warfare as well, just not to that extent.

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This isn't real life...it's a video game where battles last 30 minutes, not 10 hours.

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Bunch of RO1 fanboys *****ing and moaning about RO2. RO1 weapon sway was far too excessive. RO2 is much closer to reality.

Try holding a WWII rifle at a target @ 100m IRL and you notice the "sway" doesn't cover big area like in RO1. Set your sight at a target 100m away in RO2 and don't touch the mouse. You'll notice that the sight drifts around 1m*1m area, very similar to real life. I just tested this with my M39 Mosin Nagant (Finnish rifle) and I can easily hold the sights at similar or smaller area than RO2 soldier when standing unsupported. Personally I think that biggest shortcoming in games when it comes to modeling weapon handling is the lack of trigger pull. As long as our mouse buttons have nearly zero resistance and the press is absolutely instant it can't be modelled.

MadRhetoric said:

Accuracy seems fine. 6-10 inch groups at 100m while standing unsupported are pretty standard for rifles, more than enough to guarantee hits on a human size target. Increasing the sway to increase the target acquisition time would be alright though. There's definitely not a problem with weapon accuracy but target acquisition might be too fast. Increased sway would change that but prone and braced sway are fine. Really its just standing/crouching unsupported while low on stamina/supressed that should be changed.

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I subscribe to this gentleman's opinion.

ptx said:

Sadly, you're not only arguing with facts, that sometimes soldiers can't hit (AKA MISS) the targets they are trying to hit, but also arguing with history it self. The maps in the game represent real life battlefields, and in those battlefields there were fire fights that lasted for hours. Especially in WW2, the fact that you can see an enemy clearly from 200 meters doesn't mean you can hit him, and it's the same way in modern warfare as well, just not to that extent.

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Don't be silly, I know soldiers can miss. I'm just saying, within clear visual range (< 300m) there is a good chance that an experienced soldier with a good position can hit a moving target, especially when all of his buddies are saturating the target. Inside of 100m, missing an enemy is not only unlikely, it's lethal. The firefights in these areas lasted for several hours not because 32 soldiers were plinking away at 32 soldiers for several hours, but because several hundred, if not several thousand solders were involved, the areas the battles took place in were much larger, and there was a consistent front line spread across several miles of battlefield.

For example, the Normandy landings, a notoriously difficult assault against a deeply-entrenched German position only lasted from 6:30am to ~7:30 pm (when the last, entrenched German position fell to Allied hands), and this is a battle that involved 1,332,000 Allied soldiers (including the paratroopers, pilots, naval personnel, and landing parties vs ~380,000 Axis soldiers. An absolutely huge operation by all accounts. I promise that skirmishes featuring the numbers represented in-game were quite short, and individual firefights between soldiers were lightning fast. Most of the time spent in combat is maneuvering. The actual kills don't take more than a fraction of a second and happen as soon as a soldier can put his crosshairs over an enemy dumb enough to expose himself.

you have ugly carpet

DiedTrying said:

you have ugly carpet

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Heheh, it's easy to keep clean as it doesn't collect much dust (I vacuum maybe once per month because I'm lazy).