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Will there be AT Guns? (Merged a gazillion times)

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#21
One of the problems with AI bots is how will they "appear" on the battlefield. For example, if some of your AI gun crew get killed, will they simply pop back into existance after a set amount of time? Will a crew magically appear whenever you jump into the gun?

While I don't think AT guns need to be implemented realistically down to the tiniest detail, magical AI bots just seem too arcady for the general atmosphere of RO.
 
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#22
THG repo said:
I notice the staff quickly killed the idea due to crew numbers...
But stationary guns could easily be loaded and fired with one man in-game.
I think its worth it the "crew" numbers debate dosnt really affect games.
Click to expand...

Woah there. The staff hasn't "killed" anything.

I would like to make it clear that when I participate in discussions I am not wearing my staff hat. I am participating as a person interesting in games, in Red Orchestra specifically, and in making maps for games. I find these discussions interesting and I like to provide a devil's advocate input to make sure the ideas raised are workable.

Please do not interpret my contributions as commitments by the team. I would hate to restrict discussion of anything game related on these boards and if people assume my contributions imply team commitments I would have to discontinue participation. I'd hate that. :)

Anyway, there are a few fundamental things that reduce the usefulness of anti tank guns in a game like Red Orchestra (at the moment). This is not a comment on the value of at guns, simply recognition of reality.

1. The primary value of anti-tank guns are their small size and ease of concealement. If guns are not movable all of those advantages disappear. Tanks don't fear anti-tank guns when they know where they are.

2. Moving anti-tank guns is clearly not a one man operation, even for the smallest Pak35/36.

3. If we don't want to bother with crew for anti-tank guns, what are the implications, in terms of gameplay, of anti-tank guns that can be operated by one player? For that matter, how do anti-tank guns respawn?

Anti-tank guns work fine in Battlefield 1942, but I don't think anyone believes that same system would fit Red Orchestra.

Anyway, I apologize if anyone got the impression that the team was saying anti-tank guns were "killed".
 
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#23
Well I would say to avoid having players move the gun, have a jeep or truck do it. It would be hard and require alot of work but if its possible to have the pak gun attack to the back of a vehicle and you drive it into position and do something, like deploy it (getting it stuck into the ground). Then the gun can be used and the truck and jeep and leave. If its shot then another one spawns at the back. Then you combine using the pak gun with my abve idea.

It would also be better if the guns could be picked up and dropped (with the jeep) so it can be moved around the map several times before respawning, however I dont know how this would work.



Question: How do you disable a pak gun. Like in a tank you hit the engine or ammo stores. but a pak gun doesnt have an engine and the ammo store while near isnt part of the gun. So how would you disable one so it needs to respawn.
 
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#26
AT gun could be incorporated into RO but this would be require some gameplay changes. Gameplay changes are always a risk; also for a mod but all the more for a retail game. There is allways someone who don't like it.

My suggestions:
- Don't make AT guns movable. AT guns weren't moved in the middle of the battle.

- Either have a number of predifined deplyment positions or even have a deployment phase for the defender. (Deployment phases are common for round based tactic games)

- No respawn for AT guns. Once destroyed it remains destroyed.
 
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#29
Well we crew tanks with what 2-3 people, a PAK36 37mm had a total crew of 5 people, a PAK38 50mm had a crew of 5 people, and a PAK40 75mm had a crew of 6 you can look this up in any good TOE.

You can hand move 37mm with a crew of 2 but the bigger PAK38 and PAK40 you need atleast 3 to turn it about.

When in firing mode you have 1 gunner 1 loader and anothe guy to pass the shells to the loader, the other guys are normally running back and forward to the gun with more shell from the gun carraige which has the ammo. Or providing rifle support.

In RO, I would suggest its a great idea to have a PAK, with a minimum crew of 2, loader must load the shells after each firing the gunner aiming and firing, I also would give it a minimum travserse range, before two guns had to un deploy and rotate the gun.

Yes I guess for RO the excuse is of crew, but seriously a lot of thought and programming would have to go into this, but I do agree something like this would revolutionize the WW2 games, and I hope RO is first to do it.
 
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#30
Avron said:
AT gun could be incorporated into RO but this would be require some gameplay changes. Gameplay changes are always a risk; also for a mod but all the more for a retail game. There is allways someone who don't like it.

My suggestions:
- Don't make AT guns movable. AT guns weren't moved in the middle of the battle.

- Either have a number of predifined deplyment positions or even have a deployment phase for the defender. (Deployment phases are common for round based tactic games)

- No respawn for AT guns. Once destroyed it remains destroyed.
Click to expand...
Now that's an idea that's often came to my mind, a setup phase.

Imagine it if you had a setup phase where the defending teams commander could place defenses like PAK guns and even tripod mounted heavy MG's.
 
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#31
Avron said:
My suggestions:
- Don't make AT guns movable. AT guns weren't moved in the middle of the battle.
Click to expand...

Not totally right, take for instance the PAK36, the AT guns were man handled after each successful ambush in the middle of a battle, unless they were in a prepared position, if you were winning they were moved forward if losing retreat backwards.

The PAK36 more so then any other AT Gun as they were very light. Although the PAK38 were just as manuveurable, the PAK40's were not as easy to move although you could just a lot slower.

Good reading here would be 'In Deadly Combat' about a AT Gun team in the Crimea.
 
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#33
A cool idea would be have it like what The Trenches (mod for HL1) is talking about for their MGs. You can use the MG, but it fires a bit slower and is a bit harder to pivot, but if a teammate decides to man the MG with you, you can fire it faster cos he feeds you ammunition and directs your fire.

So... say you can pivot the PAK, plus reload it and fire it alone, but it takes awhile, but if another teammate walks up to it and presses the enter vehicle key, he reloads the vehicle while you aim and fire the weapon. Then a third teammate can come up and reload and fire while another member aims and another gives ammunition to the reloader.

Did that make any sense? Also, I think 3 or 4 men could move a PAK38/40, albeit slowly, which would be a cool addition. Another cool addition would be a PAK in the back of the SDK or the second MG in the rear of the SDK.
 
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#36
Zoring said:
A setup phase would be great, and would change the feel of the game quite a bit, even if you could move infantry men around. Also Defense/attack maps in general, if you could somehow get the defenders to stop launching themselves out of their defenses and run at the enemy, and convince people that the attacking team should have more men...
Click to expand...

RTCW did this well. Its easy to do you just have to think more about map disine and less about realism.
 
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#37
Felix Ostheim said:
True they were lifted often to change the direction they were facing but that's with a crew. I think it would be practical for them to be static but perhaps rotatable and destructible.
Click to expand...

you can fire the Pak guns in VolgaB2(the map) but they don't do anything...it just shoots (i think)

so this very well might already be possible, just make it so you can aim a bit maybe
 
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#38
a third idea.
you have preplaced pak guns that cant be moved but that you can fire. There are 3 player models at that gun. There not AI there just models that have an animation, like them loading and shooting, an AI would know what he is doing these are just models. They would spawn there and dont fight, they just man the pak gun. They continue to spawn there as long as you team olds the control point near them.

So shoot the guns will work much like arty. A play with bincos will stand near the gun within a radius and look through his bincos and sighting enemies. Once he sees them he just puts his bincos on them, presses fight and the pak gun shoots. The Models preform a fire and reload animation then your all set for another shot.

So basically it doesnt take anyone way from the battle and you play the roll of the commander and spot the targets and the gun will fire at will. Now I prefer my other ideas from above but this is just another possible way of doing things.

Once again keep in mind they arent AI, As an AI tends to take up a place on the server. There just models and animations that look like they know what there doing.
 
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