Temperature and Infantry

[Schnurx]

Yep Weather effects with "real effect" on the gameplay may add some interesting tactical issues to the game.
Not only during winter, but also in the muddy season (== every season which is not winter )
Just from the top of my head some possibilities might be:
-Much slower and more exhaustive movement for infantry in areas with high snow/deep mud. May lead to some interesting map design, e.g. by offering faster but more dangerous or slower and more secure routes.
-Dusty environment in summer, leads to copious amounts of dust when a tank gun/antitank gun fires. May obscure the vision of infantry and tank gunners/commanders for some time .
-Iced over rivers etc. which let pass infantry etc. (or maybe even tanks), but can be destroyed by the enemy.

 

[mikea030]

You are not slower just because it is cold when people are shooting at you. It would affect both sides anyway so what is the point.

If you want a slow paced clunky game play the "simulator" from eastern Europe.

Slow paced? I thought the whole idea behind RO was to create a 'realistic' FPS. You ask me I still think the game moves to fast. Thers is run and sprint. What happened to walking? When on patrol units didn't run. I like the idea about the Wx affecting stamina. By chance will equipment weight play a factor? A soldier toting a LMG will be a tad bit more burdened than a soldier carrying a SMG.

 

[Void]

I love these guys that probably live in cali, oregon, florida, etc who make assumptions about cold because they had -2 weather "that one time." Never had to make a visit up into the arctic regions where it's so cold the snot in your nose freezes on contact with air, where the water around your eyes begins to turn to frost and were your 10 pound winter clothing feels like it may as well be made of cheesecloth

Cute assumption, but wrong. Also, what does Stalingrad have to do with arctic regions?

Slow paced? I thought the whole idea behind RO was to create a 'realistic' FPS. You ask me I still think the game moves to fast. Thers is run and sprint. What happened to walking? When on patrol units didn't run.

You are not on patrol in RO, you are actually fighting. Check the other game for exciting patrols and singing in formation.

 

[Oldih]

You are not on patrol in RO, you are actually fighting. Check the other game for exciting patrols and singing in formation.

It still doesn't really change the fact that even if you're having plenty of adrenaline in your body and you don't feel cold that you'd be perfectly void of effects that are present when the air dry temperature is low enough to give a frostbite faster than you can take a dump, considering you're constantly exposed to the temperature rather than have a shelter where you can sleep and rest once in a while in the lovely comfort of a typical warm room temperature.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

My argument is simple: If environmental temperature is going to affect perfomance/behavior of tank rounds and machine gun barrels, then there should also be slight effects on infantry performance/behavior.

 

[SCandChives]

My argument is simple: If environmental temperature is going to affect perfomance/behavior of tank rounds and machine gun barrels, then there should also be slight effects on infantry performance/behavior.

Which is fair enough really.

 

[mikea030]

Cute assumption, but wrong. Also, what does Stalingrad have to do with arctic regions?



You are not on patrol in RO, you are actually fighting. Check the other game for exciting patrols and singing in formation.

Why is it that someone always has to type something to prove he is some 'hardcore' RO player since the games inception? Who said anything about singing in formation?

Unlike you, I see your point about "fighting", but do you see mine? Just because the 'front lines' were drawn, enemy positions were not always exactly known. Often the two sides stumbled on one another and the battle ensued.

Not to high-jack this thread debating with you. I agree with the original post. I would like to see something were the environment would play a role in combat as it does in reality.

And by the way, what is the title of the "other game" I should be checking out?

 

[213]

I was thinking: wouldn't it be nice if environmental temperature also affected the movement speed of infantry and perhaps overall response time etc? It would be interesting for infantry combat on winter maps to be more brutal and sluggish than dry maps.

no.

 

[cameron.]

He probably means arma by "the other game"

In really cold weather I can't think of anything that would really limit your combat effectivness in RO without becoming more of a contrived annoyance then anything.

I mean you could always implement a "feature" in which you slowly begin to either shake or shudder at more and more regular intervals and eventually become "combat ineffective". But that for that to occur during a normal RO lifespan (2-15 minutes) the soldier would have to be so poorly dressed that they really shouldn't be outside at all.

In terms of difficulty in handling metal I could see some sort of differant reload animation which takes longer in which your guy tries to avoid touching metal, but really he should just have some gloves or cloth on him which he can use for that purpose.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

In really cold weather I can't think of anything that would really limit your combat effectivness in RO without becoming more of a contrived annoyance then anything.

Contrived is just a poor choice of wording in my opinion. The thread ideas are meant to add more realism to the game environment. I find it a bit silly for you to consider the idea 'annoying' as well. That makes me wonder if you think running out of stamina is also annoying, running out of ammo, anything that inconveniences you or slows down your hardcore fragathon etc.

Some ideas
Visual desaturation
Visible breath
Heavier breathing (holding breath for aim takes longer?)
Slower/shorter sprinting, slower recovery?

 

[Pvt.Skoko]

I don't understand why so many people are against this idea. Has anyone here ever tried aiming a firearm after freezing for a couple of hours? No matter how thick your gloves are, your hands are going to get cold especially if you are for example "sitting in cover waiting for an attack." or in my case lying in wait for a deer. Every thing becomes slower, and more difficult to perform. Especially small precise movements like adjusting the sight on your rifle. Holding the rifle steady also becomes more difficult. I think that these effects could add a new and immersive level of realism.

I would also like to add that these effects should wear off. Especially after jogging around for a while.

 

[cameron.]

If realism is the goal then you should stick to realistic effects, my vision does not de-saturate in cold weather.

And yes contrived annoyances, you aren't going to have soldiers regularly getting frostbite and hypothermia in 30 minutes skirmishes and no I don't enjoy playing a soldier who dies of the cold because some guy from Ohio thinks people can't wear layers and -25 is enough to freeze you the moment you step outside

I would be fine with subtle effects but you have to keep in mind the length of RO matches and that an army isn't going to send people already suffering from hypothermia out to fight simply because they would be incapable.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

If realism is the goal then you should stick to realistic effects, my vision does not de-saturate in cold weather.

And yes contrived annoyances, you aren't going to have soldiers regularly getting frostbite and hypothermia in 30 minutes skirmishes and no I don't enjoy playing a soldier who dies of the cold because some guy from Ohio thinks people can't wear layers and -25 is enough to freeze you the moment you step outside

I would be fine with subtle effects but you have to keep in mind the length of RO matches and that an army isn't going to send people already suffering from hypothermia out to fight simply because they would be incapable.

When I'm sitting in a frozen environment with white snow all around me, my vision is affected after a while. It's mostly eye strain from the sun reflecting off the snow and the cold air/wind drying out my eyes...but hey I'm just speaking from personal experience here. Desaturation is not the ideal visual effect but if it's appropriate for suppression why not in this case...perhaps you should offer some constructive ideas rather than going off on a strongman ego trip?

Once again, I see exaggerations and sarcasm being used as an argument against this idea. I think it's ridiculous for you to downplay the effects of freezing temperatures, -25 C or F is no joke, layers or not. I think you might be confusing the first 5 or 10 minutes of said temperatures, wearing heavy layers, with the experience of a soldier coping with the Russian winter at Stalingrad. The effect on MG barrels and tank rounds shouldn't be that noticeable, so I'm a bit thrown off by these exaggerations of 'freezing upon stepping outside' etc as I never suggested anything like that. I'm not asking for extreme effects, just something.

 

[Oldih]

And yes contrived annoyances, you aren't going to have soldiers regularly getting frostbite and hypothermia in 30 minutes skirmishes and no I don't enjoy playing a soldier who dies of the cold because some guy from Ohio thinks people can't wear layers and -25 is enough to freeze you the moment you step outside

Wearing layers was only sort of "invented" as standard norm in the army only just around WW2 as it was pretty new concept. Even then there's this practical issue: keeping yourself warm while being perfectly still -- presuming you have enough clothing and so to do it -- will become a problem if you're supposed to move around heavily, as ventilation is still quite important issue to consider in the winter and the thick warm layer of clothing is pretty much "You're doing it wrong" in the army. However if you have clothing that keeps yourself reasonably warm while you're moving and "fighting" it's "doing things right", even though you still need to consider some potential issues like keeping yourself warm inbetween any skirmish and whenever you're just keeping an eye out. Now generally speaking this doesn't make any sense, but once you're outside in -20 degrees celsius and below for let's say few weeks, months or so without any real shelter it gives a whole new meaning why the cold eventually becomes far more severe issue than it sounds like. Amount of rations and other things you'll need to survive or be in "proper" state under general conditions is far diffrent than in warm weather, as obvious as it sounds. Oh and how about cleaning and drying your clothing while it's like -30 degrees and below outside? Sure it's physically possible given enough time and you do it correctly but do you want to scavenge another pair of dirty, sweaty and possibly damaged clothing in the meantime to keep your warm or do you plan to go commando, as hypothetically speaking there's no guarantee you have spare set of clothes anymore once you're become cut off from supply lines for extended period of time.

Now obvious thing is obvious and most of them are outside of the game scope, but as Felix said having some small gameplay effect without overdoing it would be nice, like faster stamina drain and such. We don't need to go such unnecessary extremeties like getting a frostbite while taking a dump because you have diarrhea, getting a frostbite after handling metal door\gun metal without proper gloves, needing to cannibalize bodies due lack of food and yadayada. That's completely missing the point.

 

[cameron.]

The main Issue I have with the suggestion is just that during the skirmishes that RO it is one of the least likely times to get most of the major effects of cold due to it being mostly 30 minutes of running around.

That said I would be fine some sort of effect but I'm not sure I really agree with most of the effects suggested slightly faster stamina drain would be fine, but a lot of what seems to be suggested wouldn't happening over the course of most RO games. I would fine with simply always having very mild changes but I really don't want everyone to be running around with major hypothermia.

I am not trying to downplay the effect of prolonged exposure to extreme cold. I just think that the situations RO portrays would be the ones least effected by the cold and that any changes should be mindful of that.

also, yes a soldier who is ill-equipped for the cold would be greatly affected during even the time-frame of RO but it is unrealistic for everyone to be so ill-equipped and I don't like the idea of randomly handing out disadvantages.

 

[FlakAttack]

This is completely wrong. In a lot of russia (other than siberia) it is very hot in the summer, hotter than in Germany actually.
Having a look at the weather in volgograd (ex - stalingrad) right now (praise be the internet) it says it's 81F and sunny. Meaning approx. 27 C. Not bad for not really end of may, is it? In Hamburg we currently have 12 C.....

Russia's weather is surprisingly a lot like Canada's weather, and we do just fine over here. It's not that hard to deal with, you just need to be prepared.

As for the weather affecting the game, even the barrels heating/cooling faster kind of bothers me. I really don't like when complications are added to a game that make it even more difficult to play but don't reward the player for the challenge and add no real depth to gameplay.

If you made it so being indoors or near fire kept your temperature up, then THAT would add depth because it would make holding intact buildings far more important to your team than normal... but just arbitrarily making cold people fight like weaklings for nothing is a waste of development energy and will only serve to piss off players.

Once again, I see exaggerations and sarcasm being used as an argument against this idea. I think it's ridiculous for you to downplay the effects of freezing temperatures, -25 C or F is no joke, layers or not. I think you might be confusing the first 5 or 10 minutes of said temperatures, wearing heavy layers, with the experience of a soldier coping with the Russian winter at Stalingrad.

I hadn't read many of the posts before I posted, but now that I see this, I know where this idea is headed and I don't like it at all.

First off, -25 C is not that serious. Do you even live in a cold climate? I've lived in Canada my whole life and for you to suffer from exposure to -25 C is going to take a lot longer than 30 minutes (with even half decent clothing covering all your skin being the condition. Having exposed skin is a whole other matter). Sure your hands will get a bit stiff and your nose runny, but you are playing up the effects as if they would actually matter in a short skirmish. You are looking to add complexity for complexity's sake and I think that's pointless and stupid.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

First off, -25 C is not that serious. Do you even live in a cold climate? I've lived in Canada my whole life and for you to suffer from exposure to -25 C is going to take a lot longer than 30 minutes (with even half decent clothing covering all your skin being the condition. Having exposed skin is a whole other matter). Sure your hands will get a bit stiff and your nose runny, but you are playing up the effects as if they would actually matter in a short skirmish. You are looking to add complexity for complexity's sake and I think that's pointless and stupid.

Again, I think it's you who are confusing two different set of circumstances. Going out for a hunting trip etc in 20-30 below freezing with modern wind breaking winter clothing--after the majority of your time is spent in a modern, insulated Canadian home with heating & air--is not comparable to the fatigue, partially caused by prolonged exposure, suffered by soldiers on both sides.

I'll point out again that we're not just talking about temperature. I'm assuming that the maps with the lowest temperatures will have snow, and I'd like some kind of change in movement speed or mechanics on these maps. This would obviously require that snow terrain be defined in the map somehow, so I wouldn't know if it's practical to do or not. However, movement speed is affected by the weight of your equipment: so what is wrong with this?

Some folks just think they are hard eggs. They want all the bonuses and benefits and perks etc they can get in the game, but when it's a malus or a hindrance: they can't cope. I for one welcome more detail and realism, especially in terms of the game environment. I welcome more challenge and variation between different maps, and by variation I don't just mean the scenery and ambience.

Edit: Perhaps I'm asking for too much, but I blame TWI for opening a realism 'can of worms' when it was announced that a map temperature value would have effects on gameplay.

 

[Grobut]

I'm not asking for extreme effects, just something.

But what would that be then?

Adding visisble breath is certainly doable, ok, that could be done, but it gets a little trickier after that..

If we where to add something like reloading taking more time, shaking hands, more weapon sway, that sort of thing, yeah that would be realistic, but sadly, i also think it would mean the winter maps would very rarely be voted for in the map rotations out there on the servers..
There's a hard core of realism nuts here who would enjoy such a thing, but probably a lot more who would absolutely hate it (and i would hate allmost never getting to play the winter maps because they get downvoted).

The idea was also raised that moving would warm you up and reduce the negative effects of the cold, ok, that sounded good on the face of it, but then i thought some more about it, and it didn't take long before i came up with the mental image of 5 guys runnning back and forth behind a small house, like headless chickens, trying to get their weapon-sway down before popping out to shoot. And i'm pretty sure we would see such silly things if such a feature was implimented... not great for realism and immersion that, not so brilliant really..


So where does that leave us? What could be added that woulden't scare away a lot of players, and also, woulden't lead to players doing silly things to circumvent the feature?

Come up with a good answer to that, and you'd have a good suggestion on your hands that could be considdered.

 

[Felix Ostheim]

There are already plenty of ideas and suggestions in the thread from myself and others. I don't agree with your assumption that cold effects would lead to winter maps being voted down. Partly because you're basing this on one suggestion, warming up from movement, which was not my suggestion. Obviously there would need to be testing and balancing of the effects whatever they may be, as with any other 'experimental' feature.

 

[Grobut]

There are already plenty of ideas and suggestions in the thread from myself and others. I don't agree with your assumption that cold effects would lead to winter maps being voted down. Partly because you're basing this on one suggestion, warming up from movement, which was not my suggestion. Obviously there would need to be testing and balancing of the effects whatever they may be, as with any other 'experimental' feature.

No, read my post again.

I did not base anything purely on the "move to warm up idea", i just also adressed that one sepperately, because it has been brought up.

The ideas pertaining to sway, longer reload times, shaking hands, thouse i have adressed in their own little paragraph, and i sadly think a lot of players would look at such a thing, and say "No, lets not play a winter map, i suck on thouse".


If there is a real difference in the game mechanics of summer and winter, then it is naive to think that woulden't have an effect on peoples playing and voting habits also, of course it will, how can it not?