Suppression effects in HOS?

[REZ]

The 'suppression effect' in DH suppressed me right out of ever playing it again

I think an 'effect' which happens to your player while being fired upon is the wrong road to travel down because no amount of polish is going to make it feel right. It's always going to be artificial.. To say that it can be tweaked to feel natural and controllable kind of defeats the purpose of even having it, no? If you can control an outside effect - how is it different than no effect at all? You'll simply learn it and it will be like it isnt even there. Blur with a loud snap if it travels near your head, great, but more than that is unnecessary imo.

In the end, simply the idea of dieing is the actual suppression effect. You actually suppress yourself. It doesnt take your screen jerking around to make it happen. You take cover and suppress yourself because you dont want to die. Honestly I think it has a lot to do with the immediate situation in-game. Sometimes you know you can be reckless, and other times you know you need to stay alive. For the most part, people learn to manage their actions based on how many reinforcements there are and they act accordingly... becoming more careful when they're almost out.. more reckless when they have plenty of reinforcements but are about to run out of time.. careful and quiet, choosing not to draw attention when they're trying to stack the capzone etc.

I think the better road to take is to make aiming a bit more difficult in order to give the advantage to the player who's weapon is rested. Something definately has to be done about the instagib nature of the guns, and the perfect IS alignment as it is now. That alone will do wonders.

I also think that 'proximity to the Squad Leader' thing is total video-game Hollywood BS. Having a guy with more stripes closer to you in battle does not make you less scared or more willing to risk your life or somehow reduce your stress level when bullets are zipping by your face. Some SL's are horrible leaders, taking risks that get their men killed and their men hate them.. so that mechanic smells gamey as hell. So does leveling up. The person who's at the PC playing the game gets better himself as time goes on and it is reflected in how he plays the game... it should'nt be because he killed 'x' amount of guys and he's now playing John Matrix from Commando. I've always favored an even playing field where everyone has the same basic grunt soldier and this way skill with the game shines as opposed to a bunch of different 'levels' based on kills or time played etc. Great, I have less sway now because I killed 200 dudes. Neat, I can run further cause I've been playing a lot. Stuff like that is just gimmicky and silly.

 

[Zetsumei]

how is killing the enemy faster going to cause someone frustration?

A lot of people consider 1 shot kills skill less. As a "n00b" can easily get lucky and kill you while is skill is much lower. There is less of a need basically to keep your ironsights locked onto a target while firing, and no way to turn around and kill your assilant when getting shot.

I do not share that mindset as in all honesty I was an instagib gamer that liked ro for its similarities. But its a pretty common complaint put out by cod players against the hardcore mode.

and @ rez the difference between us lies in the believe that actual people can get scared enough of actually being fired at in game to become suppressed.

Logically if its possible to get suppression to work normally without anything additional i'd be all for it, but my believe that that just wont happen. With too many people feeling like they are john basilone.

- Penetration of the bullets
- Smoke and Dirt coming up from bullet impacts around you (with possibility of getting in your eye).
- Less visible emitters (tracers, muzzle flashes) when getting blur (to make locating someone firing at you harder)
- Reducing the popup firing ability of people

If things like that will be there in HOS its possibly no additional effect is needed beside the current screen blurring. But personally I think that most people will continue to be way too courageous.

 

[Fedorov]

A lot of people consider 1 shot kills skill less. As a "n00b" can easily get lucky and kill you while is skill is much lower. There is less of a need basically to keep your ironsights locked onto a target while firing, and no way to turn around and kill your assilant when getting shot.

I do not share that mindset as in all honesty I was an instagib gamer that liked ro for its similarities. But its a pretty common complaint put out by cod players against the hardcore mode.

but this is not cod and is VERY hard to get lucky in a game like RO so I don't think that rule counts here

The 'suppression effect' in DH suppressed me right out of ever playing it again

lol, nice one

I also think that 'proximity to the Squad Leader' thing is total video-game Hollywood BS. Having a guy with more stripes closer to you in battle does not make you less scared or more willing to risk your life or somehow reduce your stress level when bullets are zipping by your face. Some SL's are horrible leaders, taking risks that get their men killed and their men hate them.. so that mechanic smells gamey as hell. So does leveling up. The person who's at the PC playing the game gets better himself as time goes on and it is reflected in how he plays the game... it should'nt be because he killed 'x' amount of guys and he's now playing John Matrix from Commando. I've always favored an even playing field where everyone has the same basic grunt soldier and this way skill with the game shines as opposed to a bunch of different 'levels' based on kills or time played etc. Great, I have less sway now because I killed 200 dudes. Neat, I can run further cause I've been playing a lot. Stuff like that is just gimmicky and silly.

he probably didn't meant leader, he most likely meant someone with "hero" status which is not the same, you feel safer and more confident with higher morale when you have heroes by your side


:IS2:

 

[Slyk]

As far as I know, there is going to be 'leveling' of some sort. Like it or not, and I'm not a big fan of it. If it is there, it is best to make the most of it without making things 'gamey'.

About leader effects: I advocate for some influence from an SL to encourage team play. To say that all leaders didn't have a positive impact on soldiers is true, but do players crap their pants or vomit all over themselves when under fire or having their friends brains splattered all over their faces?? I doubt it. It is a tool to make the SL more valuable and to get them to work with the team at crucial times in a fight.

Leveling effects: Never did I say "make immune". Allowing for some 'leveling' of a player, as it appears will be part of HoS, would simulate the acclimation to combat. That's been a fact for all of human history in all things we do. Experience means surviving something from a trip to the market to any form of combat. You learn. You get smarter. You adapt. You increase your chances to be successful each time you engage in the same activity. Allowing for the players to gain experience this way basically would reduce a fraction of the suppression effects, in this argument. Maybe it is incremental, 10-20-30-40-50% at most.

WORST thing KF did: White List. Catered to 13 year old whiners and relieved server admins from having to be adults and manage the content they ran. Personal rant: I think it's pathetic to play 'leveling' maps but wtf, people paid for the game, I couldn't care less if they are a level 85 Wizard shooting flaming bolts of lighting out of their ***. So what, they leveled up faster than me. . . Big Freaking deal. Tk'ers and the socially challenged asshats are a far greater problem. White list for HoS. . . beginning of the end and not something I am sure I would want to be part of, RS or not.

 

[Zetsumei]

Although I'm not a big fan of the white list in KF, purely because its nearly impossible to monitor or at least to monitor it at a speed and detail that such a detail would basically need.

However you trying to ban people that try to help TWI maintain that white list goes a bit far for me . Just like your posts that if there is a levelling system that you might as well connect things such as weapon sway and suppression to it, if there is a white list system you might as well make sure that the process of white listing gets speed up, normalized and standardized which was for instance KEPT's goal.

There are always different opinions and suggestions, and I think the goal is with that information to poll the generic public's opinion.

@ Federov, it doesn't matter that this game is not COD, people will get frustrated over it and be reluctant to buy it for that reason. Yet other people will exactly buy it for those reasons. That's what I tried to show here. The 1 hit 1 kill, and no crosshairs are the core of RO for many people here.

----

Heck I'm an Admin in RO:Ladder and there are many teams highly competitive trying to play at the absolute boundaries of the rules. Some actions are considered morally wrong by the general consensus, yet are not forbidden. This caused us to loose teams that felt a team was doing something that is not fair.

But its not generally that we don't make a rule against it because we simply have no moral as Admins. It's that sometimes you can make a rule, but simply can't define clear boundaries for it, or that the task of policing that rule is impossible without fully watching every players every move. (like for instance realism leagues had rules for when you could use hip shooting, its simply impossible to police a rule like that, as every match half of the opponent team would get accused).

Because of this stance in rule creation we've been the longest lasting ladder for RO with the least problems relative to any other league, tournament or whatever for this game. But yet have a big hate base against us, purely because we try to judge as impartially possible based on rules we can actually follow up on, rather than judge based on the personal feeling of what is morally right.

 

[Fedorov]

@ Federov, it doesn't matter that this game is not COD, people will get frustrated over it and be reluctant to buy it for that reason.

as I said before, I've never seen such complaints in RO, and you said you saw them in COD, well... that is not our problem

That's what I tried to show here. The 1 hit 1 kill, and no crosshairs are the core of RO for many people here.

I agree here, but it has nothing to do with wanting my weapon jerking when I'm trying to shoot, is hard enough that I'm taking the risk of exposing myself to shoot, why should I be punished even further by not being able to do so?

 

[Zetsumei]

as I said before, I've never seen such complaints in RO, and you said you saw them in COD, well... that is not our problem

I've seen them by new players and in free weekend with RO continuously. And although it might not be our problem, its deters more people from playing RO than something small as this ever would. Remember ideally for TWI every person that owns a device capable of playing RO:HOS should buy it. Including COD players (a lot will likely be attracted by countdown, and a lot of current RO players were previous COD players).

I agree here, but it has nothing to do with wanting my weapon jerking when I'm trying to shoot, is hard enough that I'm taking the risk of exposing myself to shoot, why should I be punished even further by not being able to do so?

The entire issue is that everybody takes too great of a risk because RO is a game, and you never have the chance of losing your actual life. While that actual fear was a ground basis for a lot of tactics through suppressive fire.
Just like things such as shock for losing your friends in a game doesn't exist.

Do you want people to have that form of shock and fear probably not, but for creating a battlefield that appears realistically. The difference of mental state between an actual soldier, and a user behind a computer should in my opinion be somewhat bridged through alternative means. For which you for instance could have the moral system (we still don't know if that system is limited to only music changes).

 

[REZ]

Logically if its possible to get suppression to work normally without anything additional i'd be all for it, but my believe that that just wont happen. With too many people feeling like they are john basilone.

See, what I read here at the core of what you're saying is that you'd like to add a 'false effect' in order to control/affect how a person plays. I've also read elsewhere that you're against that sort of thing, so.. in anycase, personally, I'd much prefer some sort of mechanic which doesnt take away control of your soldier, even for a split second.

Actually, combined with a deeper aiming mechanic (front and rear sights not locked to each other, initial ironsight aimpoint not always the same; to name a couple of examples) these ideas are great -

- Penetration of the bullets
- Smoke and Dirt coming up from bullet impacts around you (with possibility of getting in your eye).
- Less visible emitters (tracers, muzzle flashes) when getting blur (to make locating someone firing at you harder)
- Reducing the popup firing ability of people

..because they dont take control of your character away from you. I really like the no muzzle flash idea, because 90% of the time that's how I find the enemy (combined with 10% sound location), and I dont believe muzzle flash was always so consistently pronounced (especially in daytime).

In the end though, people are always going to take risks.. and like I said, unless its a person who is just turning the game on for the first time and doesnt understand how to play, the risks will usually be based on situational factors in-game - much like actual war I would imagine.

Leveling effects: Never did I say "make immune". Allowing for some 'leveling' of a player, as it appears will be part of HoS, would simulate the acclimation to combat. That's been a fact for all of human history in all things we do. Experience means surviving something from a trip to the market to any form of combat. You learn. You get smarter. You adapt. You increase your chances to be successful each time you engage in the same activity. Allowing for the players to gain experience this way basically would reduce a fraction of the suppression effects, in this argument. Maybe it is incremental, 10-20-30-40-50% at most.

Oh, dont get me wrong, I know you arent the one making the decisions on this stuff and I didnt mean to put words in your mouth if it came across that way.. I was just throwing my personal opinion out there about how I feel it's the actual player sitting at the PC playing the game who 'levels up' through his own experience. I think having an artificial leveling mechanic built into the game is gimmicky and really takes away from the core of why RO was successful in the first place.

Hell, I remember way back when I first started playing RO:CA, the first person I met and befriended was Wicked Penguin and it blew me away how he could throw a grenade from a really far distance and land it right in a small window opening. I had no chance of ever being able to do that.. but, with time, like a lot of guys now, I can land a perfectly cooked nade on a pixel of my choosing. That is an example of how I feel leveling should really be and how games should treat skill gained with practice.

To give a guy a character who, no matter how hard he tries to be accurate, cant shoot straight or throw a grenade straight until he's logged 'x' amount of hours and kills is just lame for the lack of a better word.. even if its just 10% or whatever. It serves to create imbalance and encourages grinding amongst other less desireable actions. If the game is good, it shouldnt need to have some mechanic built in to keep people playing beyond the core quality of the game imo.

 

[Zetsumei]

I'm against features that take away control of a player. However I deem the need for ability to supress really important for making RO closer to reality. Which is why I'm opting for a compromise of not fully taking away control of a player but rather putting a disturbance in his control that he can learn to overcome with actual practise.

If I didn't feel that this would be the only to possibly get suppression to fully work I sure as hell would be against something like that. But as pretty much the fundamental basics of infantry tactics in the real world are based around the effect of suppression, I'm willing to make compromises to get suppression to actually work ingame, as suppression is a critical step in my perception of making combat more realistic.

Of course some testing would be needed when additional effects are in to see if that would be enough. Like for instance removing muzzle flashes when getting suppression blur so you cannot easily pinpoint someones location and return fire while blurred. But I'm under the firm believe that in the end any less intruisive means than handicapping someones input simply won't be enough.

Basically first every other option to get people suppressed in less intruisive ways should be tried out and utilized, but if needed suppression is important enough IMO to use any means to get it to work.

 

[Oldih]

Of course some testing would be needed when additional effects are in to see if that would be enough. Like for instance removing muzzle flashes when getting suppression blur so you cannot easily pinpoint someones location and return fire while blurred.

As much as blur can give positive results if someone's looking half of the gameplay time like you're underwater if can easily give a headache to someone. Killing Floor's blur was interesting example considering the amount of complaints it recheived - considering it only occured only if you got hit rather than for every shot that was fired nearby. Looking from realism point of view, if you were under fire you wouldn't see everything blurred. Yes, I am fully aware it's difficult to replicate certain brain functions or typical human reactions under such situations but what's more likely to limit your ability to return fire (presuming you're not completely green when it comes to firefight during war, or there's not 2000+ bullets per minute concentrated to your position) : that you're psychologically not willing to do so or that it's just really difficult physically to just pop up and shoot with perfect accuracy, let alone crawl in impossible positions and lean without any problems, especially from a position that truly streches and exhausts your muscles and that the target is not in point blank range?

 

[Zetsumei]

As much as blur can give positive results if someone's looking half of the gameplay time like you're underwater if can easily give a headache to someone. Killing Floor's blur was interesting example considering the amount of complaints it recheived - considering it only occured only if you got hit rather than for every shot that was fired nearby. Looking from realism point of view, if you were under fire you wouldn't see everything blurred. Yes, I am fully aware it's difficult to replicate certain brain functions or typical human reactions under such situations but what's more likely to limit your ability to return fire (presuming you're not completely green when it comes to firefight during war, or there's not 2000+ bullets per minute concentrated to your position) : that you're psychologically not willing to do so or that it's just really difficult physically to just pop up and shoot with perfect accuracy, let alone crawl in impossible positions and lean without any problems, especially from a position that truly streches and exhausts your muscles and that the target is not in point blank range?

In case you haven't noticed yet you actually get blur already in Red Orchestra Ostfront when under fire. So i'm expecting the same would be the case with HOS. I'm really starting to think that you have a really weird version of Roost and DH

The only thing I was suggesting is to make emitters such as tracers and muzzle flashes less clear in those cases when you have blur. As even when the rest is blurred out, muzzle flashes still show up as clear as day making it completely negate any effect of blur.

What were talking about here is about suppression, whether a certain firing position is physically hard on a body shouldn't really matter in this case (beside that it would alter popup effects). Suppression is purely about the difference for someone to put off a well aimed shot against a MG firing at him vs a cow that is mooing at him.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

The 'suppression effect' in DH suppressed me right out of ever playing it again

you and me both buddy........although that was just one of many issues DH had that turned me away

Allowing for some 'leveling' of a player, as it appears will be part of HoS, would simulate the acclimation to combat. You learn. You get smarter. You adapt. You increase your chances to be successful each time you engage in the same activity. Allowing for the players to gain experience this way basically would reduce a fraction of the suppression effects, in this argument. Maybe it is incremental, 10-20-30-40-50% at most.

you said it yourself......YOU learn, YOU get smarter, YOU adapt, YOU increase your chances to be successul.... YOU gain experience.....not your AVATAR. players will develop all this on their own without the need of a leveling system that forces effects on avatars to simulate senses they will develop anyway.

I feel it's the actual player sitting at the PC playing the game who 'levels up' through his own experience. I think having an artificial leveling mechanic built into the game is gimmicky and really takes away from the core of why RO was successful in the first place.

exactly!

WORST thing KF did: White List. Catered to 13 year old whiners and relieved server admins from having to be adults and manage the content they ran.

actually, the whitelist catered to the mature (regardless of their age), ethical players that were tired of immature (typically those 13 year olds you mentioned) players AND server admins who abused the game to hell just because they wanted to level up and get achievements. the TW devs were being adults as they decided to manage the content they allowed to be ran alongside the game they created so that the integrity of the game was preserved, in other words, their vision for what the game should be like.

I couldn't care less if they are a level 85 Wizard shooting flaming bolts of lighting out of their ***. So what, they leveled up faster than me. . . Big Freaking deal.

so i'm guessing you've never played with a clan in a competitive match before? never played in a pub server when players were only able to beat you because they had super abilities due to them grinding their ways to high ranks? yeah, no Big Freaking deal until your gameplay experience is destroyed because of people abusing the game you love and play honorably.

White list for HoS. . . beginning of the end and not something I am sure I would want to be part of, RS or not.

sir, that is where you are wrong.....a leveling system is the real beginning of the end. without a leveling system for people to abuse, there is no need for a whitelist to begin with. i'm not against a leveling sytem that applies asthetic emphasis on players to show off their "skill" or "dedication" (i.e. hours of gameplay) to the game, but anything that ends up altering gameplay due to ranks is what turns a great game like RO into a kiddy arcade game like the mainstream fps games out there. there's only one reason why the perk system in KF worked ok, and that's because it's a co-op game with no sense of competition worked into the gameplay. in a multiplayer game like RO where everything is focused on competiting againt other real players, anything that's implimented that can adversely affect gameplay would eventually ruin many players' gaming experience.

thankfully, i'm pretty certain that TW knows that there is a huge difference between RO and something like KF and wouldn't impliment something like a "KF" styled perk system that could destroy the standard RO gameplay we all know and love

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

although the above isn't techincally off-topic as that's the direction the discussion took off in, probably should get back to the original locomotive that started this train....suppression:

In the end, simply the idea of dying is the actual suppression effect. You actually suppress yourself. It doesnt take your screen jerking around to make it happen. You take cover and suppress yourself because you dont want to die.

and that right there is the truth of the matter. the game should force me to fear the mg's fire, not force my avatar. if i'm actually afraid of dying, i'll stay in cover. there's other instances when you will "suppress" yourself because you know that the stakes are high. when there's 0% reinforcements and i'm the last guy in the capzone, i'll find cover. when artillery is dropping in front of me i will stop and find cover. when a tank is shooting HE into the window of the room next to me, i'm going to find cover. why? because i can sense a true feeling of fear knowing that i could die in those situations. however in DH for example, an mg shooting at me from 200m away who's just barely hitting within a 20ft radius of where i am, is not threatening me at all, just frustrating me because i know if i try to return fire my avatar will be experiencing a seizure if i get up to aim.

want the mg to really suppress me, and not just force me to be suppressed due to my avatar becoming uncontrolable? make me crap myself when his bullets are buzzing over my head, kicking up dirt to obscure my view, or blasting through the cement walls that i'm trying to take cover behind. make those bullets kill me when i run through the open thinking i'm rambo. make them kill my buddy who is stupid enough to popup in the window next to me when the bullets are coming close. make the mg better at killing and i will be much more afraid and have a more difficult timing steadying my hands on my mouse and keyboard

 

[Ralfst3r]

I don't see anything wrong with the DH supression. Looks pretty good, and adds a cool atmosphere when under fire. I give it 4 out of 5 IS2's.

:IS2::IS2::IS2::IS2:
​

 

[Oldih]

Suppression is purely about the difference for someone to put off a well aimed shot against a MG firing at him vs a cow that is mooing at him.

Yes, suppression is bit diffrent animal but how often even when you think you'd 'suppress' some position someone tries to lean so that 1. you can barely see the guy and 2.the guy leans past a corner in physically very odd position and shoots back at you with perfect accuracy? Even in DH with all the blur (and possible screenjerk, which I've yet to still notice) you could easily just go prone, lean past the corner and fire few potshots and take the MG down with ease. You were supposed to be suppressed yet you still took down the MG without any real issues.

I'm quite willing to say they're connected in a sense that making it more difficult to pop up and return fire at will by modelling certain things more realistic (E.G. slower leaning to your left (as everyone basically is righthanded in the game, and left handed people were basically trained to be ambidextrious during basic training), no instant popping up with crouch, no laying down in tight position etc) it would greatly reduce the capability to pop up, and give room to actually put more reasonable suppression system in without being too artificial. Of course one could go and argue about people who train themselves to be ambidextrious when it comes to certain tasks, but we're talking about very small minority rather than the norm. It's not exactly easy to operate firearm accurately E.G. with left hand if you're supposed to be right handed, atleast if you want to hit further than point blank range and learning yourself how to be able to do so will take quite some time.

 

[Zetsumei]

Well the suprression effects should be effected based on the distance at which bullets fly close to you and only as long as they fly close to you. So if you can relocate yourself somewhere where the bullets are further off from you, you won't be supressed anymore and that is how it should be. If anything getting people to relocate to take someone down, rather than fighting head on while being fired at is exactly what I want to see.

Players being able to do things that are physically impossible, aren't nice. But personally I don't see why it matters for the case of suppression.

------------------

Here a video illustrating the DH suppression effect (i'll make a better vid myself when i get home to show you what were talking about).

At 1:50 you see someone get shot close to him and the sights of his gun move down a few centimeter, that is basically the DH suppression effect we're talking about.
YouTube - Darkest Hour Gameplay, Putot En Bessin

 

[Pvt.Skoko]

The suppression affect at 1:50 was actually done by an mg34.


Either way, my 2 cents to this argument are that in HoS the effectiveness of mgs should be increased. At the moment it is way too easy to kill them and I think it will most likely be harder in HoS because of sight adjustement. But, I'd also like to see the machinegunner able to crouch down when taking fire while still blind firing his mg. There should also be way less tracer rounds if any, and the machinegunner should be able to more quickly change positions.


btw, I think some kinda of suppression is needed perhaps a compromise in between DH and RO

 

[Zetsumei]

The suppression affect at 1:50 was actually done by an mg34.

Yep you are right, I just watched it with my sound off initially. And since only one jerk happened I thought it was a rifleman. Guess the mg failed at aiming ^^

 

[Dr.Atkins]

I suppose it is an impossible task to find a suppression effect that everyone likes. Anyhow, my 2 cents:
DH's effect might not be perfect but it really does what it's supposed to do: You get down and find cover asap.
It was the first things that caught my eye when I tried DH. The effect really is immerse and u literally want to hit the dirt. 99% of the games/mods fail to reproduce this feeling. Even RnL fails in this

GL for ROHOS devs so that they can find a way to do this without making the effect non-existent or so annoying that half the ppl hate it.

 

[Moyako]

What the hell is a white list?? :s I don't have KF

 

[Galslacht]

I suppose it is an impossible task to find a suppression effect that everyone likes. Anyhow, my 2 cents:
DH's effect might not be perfect but it really does what it's supposed to do: You get down and find cover asap.
It was the first things that caught my eye when I tried DH. The effect really is immerse and u literally want to hit the dirt. 99% of the games/mods fail to reproduce this feeling. Even RnL fails in this

GL for ROHOS devs so that they can find a way to do this without making the effect non-existent or so annoying that half the ppl hate it.

Exactly. It might be annoying for some people, but it sure is an effective measurement.
I hope Tripwire will more or less copy the effect into HOS. Its the only suppression effect that I know of that actually works.