Suppression effects in HOS?

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

suppressive in DH sucks, because it doesn't make you fear the bullets, it makes you go: **** this ****, aim!, come on aim! you mother****er.... which is a very different feeling from fear or caution, is just plain and simple frustration of fighting against the game mechanics. I can't stand DH

:IS2::IS2::IS2:

exactly!

so what i've been seeing in the last couple posts is pretty much this.....the goal of surpression fire is to keep players heads down and eliminate their ability to return fire which in turn provides the ability to use infantry tactics. i completely AGREE with that. however, i don't like the way DH artificially creates that effect by forcing things like excessive avatar "shake". like fedorov described, you're not afraid, you're just frustrated as hell because the game is stopping you from doing what you should be able to do.....again it's because it's an artifical way of creating an effect. ultimately the best solution to create this effect would be creating a better "fear of death", whether or not that's possible is the question. like others have already pointed out, making the mg more "deadly" would increase a players fear of death if they knew the mg could kill them if they got out of cover. bullet penetration will already greatly help this out

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Wow, I honestly have to say, the DH system doesn't faze me like it does some of you. I am not saying ROHOS has to have anything like their system, or any at all for that matter, but I think something would be nice to at least encourage people to keep their heads down once in awhile. I think most people fancy themselves similar to Speirs on Band of Brothers running thru Foy when that was probably the exception rather than the norm. Besides, suppression doesn't make you unable to fire or even hit someone, just more difficult and I have found I get better (calmer) at it the more I play as a veteran might compared to a green conscript. It is only HE or artillery, or an enemy mg firing at my position that I am unable to overcome easily and to me, that feels realistic.

But anyway, to each his own. As I said, I think overall, something like that would be a really nice touch but in no way is it a game breaker if not there.

Also, as an added benefit of suppression, the bullets etc wizzing by me occasionally let me know I am being fired on and if possible, I try to take cover instead of just dumbly jogging thru the open.

 

[Oldih]

I am not saying ROHOS has to have anything like their system, or any at all for that matter, but I think something would be nice to at least encourage people to keep their heads down once in awhile.

Probably the most fundamental reason why suppression rarely - if ever (even in DH, to some degree) - works properly is that even if you add artificial ways to enforce the fact bullets are supposed to be dangerous, the reasons why it's bit silly is the fact you can effectively return fire even when you're blinded if you can just remember the rough location of the muzzleflash combined with the fact you can position yourself in such way that would be realistically either truly painful or impossible to fit.

Let's count some examples:

1. Popping up. Yes, you can pop up with a weapon and fire a shot back to very close range at a short notice but accurate fire to a machinegun just by popping up and down is not really feasible. Especially if you're tired.

2. Laying down where you wouldn't be able. Let's say a corner of a building against a tank that you might be able pass while standing, but you would be unable to fit while crawling, atleast if you want to turn more than 15 degrees. Oh and let's not forget shooting while leaning to your left (presuming the person is right handed) - unless you're not ambidextrious by nature or trained yourself to work like that with certain objects, the position you're trying to tilt yourself with a weapon is like pulling your own teeth out when it comes to being uncomfortable. Even with let's say to your right you still would have to put your weapon past the corner first. Clipping is partly related to this issue.

3. Ability to retain perfect aim under any conditions. Even if you're tired as hell you can shoot perfectly accurate shots in RO with rifles if you just do it quickly enough. It doesn't matter if you can't see the target properly as long as you have rough location, as if you got lucky you still killed someone just by aiming for a split second and firing perfectly accurate shot... after sprinting entire marathon under artillery barrage.

DH suppression system (which for the record works ok, but as noted it doesn't solve the fundamental issues) makes it more difficult to return fire, but does not deny it in any real way. Just because you're partitially blind\can't see it properly doesn't mean you can't hit it or aim accurately. Especially with deflection shots.

Operation Flashpoint is probably the only game where I have genuine 'fear' of bullets in pragmatic context that if I am under fire I actually try to avoid staying in the open or seek cover and stay there and re-evaulate the situation. While it's partly due the game being somewhat clunky, it actually effectively denies any attempts to return fire and pop up at will. Double this for FDF mod.

 

[Zetsumei]

DH suppression system (which for the record works ok, but as noted it doesn't solve the fundamental issues) makes it more difficult to return fire, but does not deny it in any real way. Just because you're partitially blind\can't see it properly doesn't mean you can't hit it or aim accurately. Especially with deflection shots.

I think you're mixing up the RO and DH suppression system. In DH your actual aim is automatically put off/moved when nearly hit like a sudden jerk. Where as in RO only the vision of a player is changed.

The DH system gives your gun a sudden jerk into a random direction making it uncontrollable and nearly impossible to fire back anywhere close the target. What I would like to see is something similar but then more like sway so a user can suppress the effect with countering mouse movement, and with practise overcome the effect.

I think that everybody wants the effects of popup shooting to be gone. And changing the aim point slightly when changing stance would be a good move in the correct direction. A big reason why suppression often works better in Flashpoint as well is simply that if you die you're out of the action for a long time. Something that is generally not possible in RO's territory game type.

 

[Fedorov]

I think that everybody wants the effects of popup shooting to be gone. And changing the aim point slightly when changing stance would be a good move in the correct direction. A big reason why suppression often works better in Flashpoint as well is simply that if you die you're out of the action for a long time. Something that is generally not possible in RO's territory game type.

But isn't that why they are adding "countdown"? I mean, countdown mixed with RO:HoS combat is gonna be the GREATEST thing ever happened in the FPS world, no need for artificial jerking.

 

[Oldih]

I think you're mixing up the RO and DH suppression system. In DH your actual aim is automatically put off/moved when nearly hit like a sudden jerk. Where as in RO only the vision of a player is changed.

Only thing I've noticed in DH is overblown blur, no jerking whatsoever even when under heavy fire. Maybe a single case of really weird glitch?

 

[Zetsumei]

But isn't that why they are adding "countdown"? I mean, countdown mixed with RO:HoS combat is gonna be the GREATEST thing ever happened in the FPS world, no need for artificial jerking.

Countdown isn't a solution to issues in the Territory game type. The ability to only attack 1 cap zone at a time in a set order in countdown, the lack of need of managing reinforcements probably won't make it replace territory for me. The tactical diversity of having reinforcements was what brought me to RO in the first place.

Countdown is a great game mode, for the tension it will bring. And it will probably get a huge following especially from new buyers from the S&D crowd. But it comes at a cost of taking away tactical freedom and depth, and for me that's a concession I'm not a fan of.

Only thing I've noticed in DH is overblown blur, no jerking whatsoever even when under heavy fire. Maybe a single case of really weird glitch?

Sounds like a cheat if you ask me

 

[Fedorov]

Countdown is a great game mode, for the tension it will bring. And it will probably get a huge following especially from new buyers from the S&D crowd. But it comes at a cost of taking away tactical freedom and depth, and for me that's a concession I'm not a fan of.

Your "tactical" view of Territory is unrealistic, you have 2 small teams streaming from a spawn to objectives, that is not tactical, its 2, 3 or 4 guys constantly moving from one position to the objective hoping to defeat the enemy stream and capture it, if you feel there are less enemies in a position you go there and hold it till the cap bar is filled... and even then, the layout of most maps prevents you from doing that.

with everybody going with one life to the same objective, squads can actually work together for the same purpose and think carefully about the best way to assault/defend the objective, you may think this is everybody storming the same room making it a grind fest, But I think people will carefully study the situation, use covering fire, take alternative routes or surrounding the place first, and stay with their head down if they are being shoot, they won't have a next chance as in territory.

It also fixes the problem that the next spawn of attackers know the exact position of the defenders because of telepathic memory.

IMO, countdown is gonna be much more tactical than territory ever was.

 

[Zetsumei]

Territory got more to manage making it an unorganized chaos pretty quickly in public play. However S&D based public multiplayer generally isn't really any better. Unless you play in a clan based environment you probably cannot see the full tactical depth of any of the game modes.

S&D which seems similar to Countdown, is primarily tactical on the basic squad level. Like for instance how to breach a building and how to move within a building. It always reminds me the covert ops missions. Especially as staying hidden from the enemy is one of the core basics in a successful attack and defense. The key of S&D sucess is the big suspense while playing.

Territory on the other hand, beside having to think about squad tactics, you need to worry about a bigger scale of things and next to it and need to look at the big battle in general. Because of the re-spawns it truly feels like a battle field rather than a covert ops mission.

In territory need to think what cap zone to attack how to divide your men. Whether or not you send people to cut off enemy reinforcements from entering the cap zone. There is a lot of management involved in the bigger scale of things that are missing with countdown. Because of re spawns you need to continuously adapt your tactics, and have a very small time frime to execute a plan once an opportunity arises. And actually have the chance to adapt your tactics based on what the enemy is doing.

I do not think that in countdown enemies will just be going a grind fest, squad tactics go pretty deep. But its missing the more bigger platoon scale based tactics that territory offers. Territory is not just a case of rushing in a cap zone till you succeed, If you want I could invite you to some friendly clan match . I've played a lot of S&D games in clans in the past but after seeing the tactical depth in RO I simply cannot go back.

Countdown will be great and without a doubt be popular, but Territory is where more freedom lies in methods of attack.

 

[Fedorov]

Countdown will be great and without a doubt be popular, but Territory is where more freedom lies in methods of attack.

I too played BFE and IC and there is not real freedom there. Its like banging your head against a stone wall...

Clan play is on a minor scale than BFE sure, and more tactical too, but I'm not interested in joining a clan, as I don't have the time, dedication or competitive impulse, or whatever you call it to join one, and therefore I will not support changes or anything that worsens the public play experience in favor to clan play.

:IS2:

 

[OneBloodyHero]

Clan play is on a minor scale than BFE sure, and more tactical too, but I'm not interested in joining a clan, as I don't have the time, dedication or competitive impulse, or whatever you call it to join one, and therefore I will not support changes or anything that worsens the public play experience in favor to clan play.

:IS2:

It really depends on what clan. But I noticed for one to be in a clan, the only thing it really requires is the love of the game. I join clans that are relaxed, not pretentious, and yet willing to engage in competitive play. Competitive play really creates awesome immersion and fun...

:IS2:

 

[Zetsumei]

I too played BFE and IC and there is not real freedom there. Its like banging your head against a stone wall...

Clan play is on a minor scale than BFE sure, and more tactical too, but I'm not interested in joining a clan, as I don't have the time, dedication or competitive impulse, or whatever you call it to join one, and therefore I will not support changes or anything that worsens the public play experience in favor to clan play.

:IS2:

If you don't want to play the territory game mode then you don't have to. But territory will be a popular game mode in public play as well.

My preference for the territory game mode is based on the additional depth it offers over S&D in clan play. But that doesn't stop that for other people there are many different reasons why they will play territory over countdown.

I've never played DH in any form of clan or competitive play, and find some clear issues with their suppression system. But the increased effect of suppression I experienced in public play is clearly visible in the behaviour of the individual players during public. And that is what I want to see in regular RO.

If it can be achieved through making someone actually fear death then great, and I will logically prefer that over any artificial solution. However if it cannot be achieved without such means then I would prefer a system that gives a physical handicap. To make people in the end react more similar to real life counterparts.

Clans are just a group of players that likes to play together. There are a lot of clans for instance that are not competitive at all and pretty much only play on public. However when you start playing other clans for fun or to win you will quickly find a lot of depth that goes into the team play. A depth that never surfaced for me when playing IC and BFE, I primarily found unbalanced game play and hatred there but that's my opinion.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

...I've never played DH in any form of clan or competitive play, and find some clear issues with their suppression system. But the increased effect of suppression I experienced in public play is clearly visible in the behaviour of the individual players during public. And that is what I want to see in regular RO...

I have noticed that as well, players will dive to the ground, or run for cover etc (me included) when being fired on in DH, more so than in RO. In effect, it seems that suppression works more. Whether it is because players don't want to die and have to wait to respawn, or it just plain annoys a player, it seems to suppress them or at least many of them, and I think that is the whole point of it.

 

[Fedorov]

If it can be achieved through making someone actually fear death then great, and I will logically prefer that over any artificial solution. However if it cannot be achieved without such means then I would prefer a system that gives a physical handicap. To make people in the end react more similar to real life counterparts.

I think how the player feel is more important than how he reacts, and frustration is not a good thing if you want to keep a game populated

:IS2:

 

[Slyk]

Let's just make everyone play with force-feedback mice then we can implement the suppression that way paired with blurred vision. ? Ok, maybe not so practical, but maybe TWI will give away free force-feedback mice with the game then we're on to something! Ok, maybe not.

Lots of valid points made but there is only so much you can do short of putting us all in giant simulators where we can run and jump and crawl and and and. Ok, maybe not in my lifetime.

Anyway, I stick with my original point of sway + vision - proximity of leader - your progress to hero status which, like the character leveling in KillingFloor, would shave off some of the suppression effects but not all of them.

 

[Zetsumei]

I think how the player feel is more important than how he reacts, and frustration is not a good thing if you want to keep a game populated
:IS2:

When correctly implemented with a nice bit of polishing it shouldn't frustrate people and feel natural and controllable.

Beside that what someone gets frustrated by differs from player to player, the ability for 1 bullet to kill someone and a lack of cross-hairs is more likely to frustrate people.

 

[Fedorov]

When correctly implemented with a nice bit of polishing it shouldn't frustrate people and feel natural and controllable.

Beside that what someone gets frustrated by differs from player to player, the ability for 1 bullet to kill someone and a lack of cross-hairs is more likely to frustrate people.

how is killing the enemy faster going to cause someone frustration?

 

[Bashenka]

how is killing the enemy faster going to cause someone frustration?

It's more a problem of getting killed faster .

 

[Fedorov]

It's more a problem of getting killed faster .

but thats a matter of who shoots first, its like that in all games... for example in RO, the one who hits first wins, but in other games where you need 50 shots to kill somebody, the one who shoots first will have the damage lead and the end result is the same... I don't see the frustration, and I never saw anyone complaining about it.

:IS2:

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Anyway, I stick with my original point of sway + vision - proximity of leader

ok, that sounds decent.......

your progress to hero status which, like the character leveling in KillingFloor, would shave off some of the suppression effects but not all of them.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. if the ROHOS "perks" system is anything at all like the KF system, that just means we'll end up getting a whitelist to prevent people from grinding their way to Hero status just so that they are "immune" to whatever suppression system is used.

unless of course the "perks" system is much more refined than KF's meaning in HOS your experience and "skill" can be accurately measured and reflected through a rank.