So how good is Killing Floor 2 right now?

[infntnub]

you can flinch lock with other melee weapons. my point only was that fighting scrake and fp with katana is more fun to me in this game than kf1.

I'd agree with this assessment. Melee gameplay is considerably more fun for me with the parry system in KF2.

Although the dwarf axe was something I'll never forget lol.

 

[oldmidget]

I'd agree with this assessment. Melee gameplay is considerably more fun for me with the parry system in KF2.

Although the dwarf axe was something I'll never forget lol.

i didnt like berserker back then but now its alot of fun. there are alot of ways you can play it depending on skills you pick, i think berserker has some of the best perk skill selection out of all 10 perks.

 

[taiiat]

Berserker is much more enjoyable in KF2 for sure. in fact played it the most out of all the Perks in KF2, between speed to dodge attacks, Parrying, and nicely varied Melee Attacks, there's much variety to be had.

now, i'll probably find much more enjoyment in some of the Perks that i don't really now in the future, when there's enough Weapons to have some diversity. when uh, we all know some of them might have 4+ Weapons but realistically.... they're all the same Gun.

FP cool down when you break the line of sight.

i do certainly miss that, for sure. that pseudo 'time limit' on what you can do, always being encouraged to keep moving as fast as possible to keep it from getting angry.
granted, for balance sake that style should probably be adjusted if it was to be present in KF2, so that the Fleshpound still has some aggression even if you do that. since the Enemy is supposed to be extremely aggressive.

And the whole rubberbanding where they teleport attack you from a distance that should not have been possible, or attack before the animation even shows the attack (and no it's not ping related if this happens at 26-48ms)

tbh, Enemies attacking before it makes sense to take Damage from their Animation State happens even when playing Solo.

Because they are all designed to throw fast zeds on the players and push them out of their holding position with gas and all kinds of stuff.

not that it really helps, but since Enemies in KF2 will freely Spawn even within just a couple Meters of Players, moving around gets punished so it's not like moving around a lot ends up being better. Enemies will just spawn in a small circle around you as you sprint around.

 

[Gladius]

you can flinch lock with other melee weapons. my point only was that fighting scrake and fp with katana is more fun to me in this game than kf1.

No, there is no melee flinchlock past hard difficulty.

But I agree, zerk is better in KF2. (in KF1 it's simply gamebreaking overpowered from level 5 on)

My theorie is that the game design focused more on the new melee system than anything else and that's why the game got so highly dynamic.

 

[Gladius]

not that it really helps, but since Enemies in KF2 will freely Spawn even within just a couple Meters of Players, moving around gets punished so it's not like moving around a lot ends up being better. Enemies will just spawn in a small circle around you as you sprint around.

I understand the spawning system. But zeds spawn around a corner. They don't spawn within line of sight. (with the exception of those backspawn things where they come through a manhole or something). And how far away that next corner is, is a map design question. For example outpost. They added that annoying backspawn between the trucks. Hostile grounds the manhole in the middle of the crossroad. So that you have zeds spawn in the middle of the teams position. It's just to keep players constantly turning and moving. It would be okay whan that would be just on some maps but making that the overall map design philosophy is a bad design choice. "one size fits all"

 

[taiiat]

I understand the spawning system. But zeds spawn around a corner. They don't spawn within line of sight. (with the exception of those backspawn things where they come through a manhole or something). And how far away that next corner is, is a map design question. For example outpost. They added that annoying backspawn between the trucks. Hostile grounds the manhole in the middle of the crossroad. So that you have zeds spawn in the middle of the teams position. It's just to keep players constantly turning and moving. It would be okay whan that would be just on some maps but making that the overall map design philosophy is a bad design choice. "one size fits all"

i don't think it's a Level Design issue at all - simply, Enemies should not Spawn within ~20m of a Player (except for those 'ground holes' that Spiders and sometimes Clots come out of, those are okay because only Light Units come from there, a few light Units spices things up rather than just surprise teamwipe).
no exceptions.

been planning on making a short clip/illustration to express just how f...ing ridiculous Enemies are without a minimum distance. the other day on the Volcano map, on the beach front, i was walking towards the stairs, and a Bloat, Siren, and Fleshpound spawned literally on the opposite side of the rock i was walking by(almost in Melee Range...). then when i got a few steps up the stairs, a Fleshpound and a few other things spawned at the top of the staircase.
game simply doesn't function without a minimum spawn distance.

sigh.

 

[oldmidget]

i don't think it's a Level Design issue at all - simply, Enemies should not Spawn within ~20m of a Player (except for those 'ground holes' that Spiders and sometimes Clots come out of, those are okay because only Light Units come from there, a few light Units spices things up rather than just surprise teamwipe).
no exceptions.

been planning on making a short clip/illustration to express just how f...ing ridiculous Enemies are without a minimum distance. the other day on the Volcano map, on the beach front, i was walking towards the stairs, and a Bloat, Siren, and Fleshpound spawned literally on the opposite side of the rock i was walking by(almost in Melee Range...). then when i got a few steps up the stairs, a Fleshpound and a few other things spawned at the top of the staircase.
game simply doesn't function without a minimum spawn distance.

sigh.

i can relate to this but ive just kinda accepted it.

 

[Gladius]

i don't think it's a Level Design issue at all -
[...]
the other day on the Volcano map, on the beach front, i was walking towards the stairs, and a Bloat, Siren, and Fleshpound spawned literally on the opposite side of the rock.

It is a level design question where the mapper puts the spawn volumes. And those are all over the place. But they wouldn't have to be so dense. For example, I made a modification of the Outpost map, for solo holding. I removed some spawn volumes around the trucks for that. No more bull**** spawns when line of sight to the spawn volume on the other side of the truck is broken...

 

[taiiat]

It is a level design question where the mapper puts the spawn volumes.

the solution is absolutely not forcing Enemies to Spawn in a predictable position from you....
it's to prevent them from Spawning in places that are currently bad.

removing possible Spawn locations doesn't improve the game. every map having 'the one place you go and stand at' defeats having maps.
elsewise, every map can have all sorts of places to stand at or move around through.... like maps.


for you see, if Enemies didn't Spawn right next to Players, then you could defend an area or move around.... anywhere you like?
which is a sight more interesting than 'on this map you stand here and Enemies come from there'.

 

[Gladius]

removing possible Spawn locations doesn't improve the game.

Believe it or not but it does improve the game. I recommend that you open maps in the SDK and look at the spawn volume placement. Think about the place with your rock...

every map having 'the one place you go and stand at' defeats having maps.

Thats why good map design offers several positions that offer the player(s) a choice. KF1 has such maps.

 

[infntnub]

The point is now perfectly illustrated.

I have missed you around the boards vealck. Sorry to hear you closed up shop on KF2.

Hopefully things continue to evolve over the next year or so.

 

[silverlighted]

Make a simple test and go over to the KF1 forums. Write down some names and look at their comment history in the KF2 forums. Most of them are gone. I'm kinda alone here.

Such a depressing post lol.

 

[Gladius]

Such a depressing post lol.

Sad but true. And even on the KF2 forums the life span of the users seems shorter. Most people that got involved into discussing KF2 did that only for a relatively short period of time. And the reason for this is the shallowness, the lack of depth in gameplay I'm talking about. There is simply not (yet?) enough about KF2 to keep people really occupied on the long term. It's fun for a while but endgame there is that emptiness. The virtuosic sandbox that KF1 offers was streamlined away.

 

[q3.railgun]

I'll start this off by saying that I've played much more Kf2 than I have Kf1. This is because of the what seemed to be easier to play gameplay versus what I had experienced in KF1 (head hitboxes). So I invested time into it, looking at what were considered community crap tier (at every patch) and expanding on it. The end result, the stuff that people considered to be awful I found to be incredibly intriguing due to some data mining required to discover some tricks albeit tricky/impossible to use in realtime.

However as time went by, all those "tricks" had become more and more simplified and began to tread into the solidified method to % based may happen events. This pressured the game to go from do X -> trigger Affliction A -> do Y to kill to a more DPS the head or group spam to kill zeds.


In Kf1 (people feel free to correct me because I am a casual in Kf1 and even Kf2):

Casually/pub - You have people killing ZEDs with an even distribution with DEM on FP and SS on SC, on occasion you have people spamming SC/FP due to lack of game understanding.

Organized/Friend's game - You usually can have 1 person controlling most trash and large ZEDs being aggro'd by anyone who wants them. DEM still pipe's an area for messed up FP kills. M99/xBow most likely not used.

In Kf2:

Casually/Pub - You have anyone and everyone shooting whatever they feel like shooting. This is pretty common at 80% of matches.

Semi-Organized Pub - People understand what they should be firing at. FB/COM at trash, SS large zed, DEM FP, etc... 19% here.

Endgame/Friends-game - Mostly hitscan + non-spamming SUP. Unless they're fooling around you'll never see a FB/DEM in extremely high level plays, this is because the body health pool on zeds are much higher than head hp pool. Target prioritization exists at this level without looking like it because the decisions and the aiming are made at almost robotic levels. Solo/2 Man rifles or solo GS on large while others covers incoming trash, any mess ups or too high density is recovered via freeze/flash bang. SS is equipped with LAR+M14. 1% or less of groups here, not just because of the understanding required but also due to the aiming requirement.


The perks in Kf1 became strong not just due to the % increases but also because of the player's understanding of the game. I never knew M14/LAR Flinch locking on SC until Gladius/ggnowqq taught me and I had over 300 hours in KF1. Prior to that, I knew how to xBow/M99 a SC to kill. From there you kinda learn what trigger's a SC to start run/locking onto you, what a stun/flinch is, how to trigger it, how to break it (explosives) and you start to invest time into -> "Hey maybe this weapon combination from off perking will work to safely and/or quickly kill X zed".

This sort of player fulfillment is lost in Kf2 and that's what players are shying away from. To me this used to exist in the form of affliction on/off triggers. What is lost here is made up by pure aiming skill or just group DPS power. So if what kept your interest in KF1 was the concept of getting together with a group of people (random or not) and shooting away at ZEDs without a real need to learn any mechanics then I think Kf2 will still fulfill that need, if it was more of the idea of knowing what really ticks ZEDs off then I'd say you could make a pass.

Either way, a free weekend checkout would most likely give you your best answer.

 

[Escadin]

I don't share all these complaints about "missing combos" and "messy afflictions" at all.

First of all, the affliction system of KF2 is vastly superior to that of KF1. That is beyond questioning imo and should be self evident. Not only is it obviously more complex but also A LOT better balanced. Flinch-locking a scrake to death in KF1 was no better than circle strafing. It's broken OP because it trivializes the fight and borders on exploiting. Moreover, nothing in KF1 was about teamplay. 2 people shooting the same zed caused more harm than good for many reasons - the affliction system included. It's a co-op game, remember?
This entire "I'm gonna rambo any zed with my deagle" playstyle the game cultivated was admittedly fun but totally out of place if you're honest. All those high level players raging (me included) because somebody "messed up" their kill by merely trying to contribute. This mentality is just overglorified. Of course, I can understand the breach here. Kf1 first appealed to people who like this sort of gameplay and then KF2 went and "fixed" it.

This leads me to my second point:
Combos moved to team-combos. Like it or not.
There is just so much synergy between the perks in KF2 it's unbelievably good. Every perk has a niche and a purpose and I'm happy to see any of them on team. That's pretty huge success considering the amount of perks have nowadays.
In KF1 the best thing a medic could do to help with a scrake kill was to tank him after a failed attempt and / or generally freak out it's hitbox. In KF2 you can increase the damage of a sharpshooter to push his railgun damage over the 1-hit-kill mark. You can help people escape and reload with speed boosts or turn a berserker into an unstoppable wall.
SWAT can theoretically solo a scrake but using his stun grenade to set up an easier kill for a gunslinger while he keeps the trash at bay is far more powerful. Berserkers can help demos by de-raging FP safter they ate rockets and c4 with their EMP allowing them to chain a dynamite stun. I've seen berserkers wrestle with scrakes while their premade support takes potshots at it's head with the hunting shotgun (which would absolutely lack the reload speed and CC to make an efficient kill otherwise) and then heal their buddy with a medic shotty. Perks with supplier have a significant impact on everyone's economy which was never a thing in KF1 where everyone just started with a crossbow to sell and worked for themselves alone. Supports enable demos to re-use their door traps which is essentially free grenades. And the list goes on and on.

So bottomline KF2 is just all around a much better co-op game. Depth has been shifted to teamplay which is absolutely reasonable. The only issue is that most pubs don't really care to participate in any of this which is a shame. However, playing with friends (real friends - not just elitists who tolerate each-other on their server) KF2 is a much better experience than KF1.


PS: Yes I know I took some aspects to the extreme but it helps demonstrate my point of view.

 

[2Clicks]

If you loved KF1 then KF2 will definitely be a solid investment for you.

On the contrary.....

I was not going to buy KF2 because I dont usually go for sequels unless they possess enough difference that the there is something new to learn, challenge or entertain me when playing. I only got it due to peer pressure from some of the ppl who I played KF1 regularly. Ironically they dropped the game along time ago!

Even more ironically that of the 100+ ppl that I added to my friends list from KF1 days.... only a handful play the game at all and thats intermittently at best.

It should be said that while KF2 is a great game in its own right it doesnt quite capture the same audience as those that played KF1. That game was unintentionally genius despite its faults. Though I guess alot of that had to do with capturing ppls imagination in many different ways. I cant see many ppl who I played KF1 regularly ever coming back to KF2. But we shall see.

I don't share all these complaints about "missing combos" and "messy afflictions" at all.

Hence KF1 being a more individually skillful game. Whereas KF2 requires a more tactical approach and mind.

I have loved playing both games for those separate reasons! I know others havent because they prefer one style over the other.

Combos moved to team-combos. Like it or not.
There is just so much synergy between the perks in KF2 it's unbelievably good. Every perk has a niche and a purpose and I'm happy to see any of them on team. That's pretty huge success considering the amount of perks have nowadays.

Exactly so. And that its strength when ppl actually understand the roles of the other perks playing. Apart from demo which is just the perk for ppl who cant aim! Used to be the perk for shotguns but not anymore! lol

 

[Tussell]

On the contrary.....

I think my last couple days as a forum member here have shown me that it's really not entirely contrary. I wouldn't have pictured so many people complaining about the core gameplay of KF2 on this forum a year after its release. There's a handful of KF1 'elitests' that seem to just hang around to tell everyone how much better KF1 is than KF2. I'm an elitist ass about things too, specifically music and retro games, so I understand. I do.

I would honestly go as far as saying that I 'loved' KF1. I'm a sucker for anything co-op and my friends and I always had an amazing time running KF1. That being said, were we like, amazing players? Of course not, we played casually. Could we tell you every single strategy that could be used to complete HoE maps? Of course not. But, we had a blast.

Now, every single one of us, have recently gotten back into KF2 and we've been playing it non-stop for almost two months now.

I'm sure it doesn't help that we all love video games, co-op, monsters, gore, horror, violence, guns, etc. Regardless of how 'deeply tactical' and 'strategy-based' the first one is to this 'dumbed down', 'stupid', 'casual' game known as Killing Floor 2, I've enjoyed both very much. Hell, half of you hardcore KF1 players would likely chew us out for the way we played KF1, at least, that's how some people are putting themselves out there.

People enjoy things for different reasons, and I can't say it enough that I've thoroughly enjoyed both games.

Signed,

The Casual P.O.S. Noob That I Am

 

[Gladius]

First of all, the affliction system of KF2 is vastly superior to that of KF1. That is beyond questioning imo and should be self evident. Not only is it obviously more complex but also A LOT better balanced.

Like I said numerous times before, the game engine of KF2 is more complex than its predecessor, no question about it. The problem is just that how this is utilized in terms of game design, is shallow and unimaginative.

And about being „better balanced“... One of the main flaws of KF2 is that a raging scrake can be outrunned by any perk, even when fully loaded. This results in players doing stupid things and getting away with it. And why trying to learn any game mechanics when there is simply no need for that? In KF1 when a demo is nading a scrake he will closing in very soon and only stop attacking when he is killed. In Kf2 it's pretty much the pub meta to rage stuff and then run away while chipping down it's health... good game.

Flinch-locking a scrake to death in KF1 was no better than circle strafing. It's broken OP because it trivializes the fight and borders on exploiting.

First of all the KF1 flinch(-lock) mechanic is not an exploit at all. It was a game mechanic that was implemented into the game, quite a while after the initial release.

And where is the „better balanced" mechanic that replaced it in KF2? What we got is the EBR stunning the scrake with spamming headshots. That requires less skill than continously hitting a moving head hitbox that isn't even synchronous with the animation model. When you miss one shot withe the KF1 EBR flinchlock because your timing or aim is off, then the lock will break and you get a chainsaw to the face. In KF2 you can spam that EBR at range with a scope and the scrake will be just stunned. This is actually way more trivializing the EBR scrake takedown. Or look at gunslinger. The DPS output with the magnums is so high that you can just take the scrakes head off before he even plays the rage animation. I really don't see how these new systems would be "žsuperior“. It is just unimaginative use of the game engine that would potentially allow way more interesting gameplay.

Moreover, nothing in KF1 was about teamplay. 2 people shooting the same zed caused more harm than good for many reasons - the affliction system included. It's a co-op game, remember?
This entire "I'm gonna rambo any zed with my deagle" playstyle the game cultivated was admittedly fun but totally out of place if you're honest. All those high level players raging (me included) because somebody "messed up" their kill by merely trying to contribute. This mentality is just overglorified. Of course, I can understand the breach here. Kf1 first appealed to people who like this sort of gameplay and then KF2 went and "fixed" it.

I have seriously no idea what you are talking about, pretty much everytime when you share your KF1 „experience“. KF1 is as much about teamplay as the players make it happen. And so is KF2. In KF2 I can also "I'm gonna rambo any zed with my deagle" playstyle. I'm just using the .500 magnums here. The effect is the same.

This leads me to my second point:
Combos moved to team-combos. Like it or not.
There is just so much synergy between the perks in KF2 it's unbelievably good. Every perk has a niche and a purpose and I'm happy to see any of them on team. That's pretty huge success considering the amount of perks have nowadays.

No, combos got replaced by sheer DPS single player takedowns. And you might like KF1 combos or not, it doesn't change the fact that KF2 is falling short here and needs to get improved by utilizing the game engines full potential.

So bottomline KF2 is just all around a much better co-op game. Depth has been shifted to teamplay...

This is your personal opinion and I will leave that uncommented.

 

[Tussell]

This is your personal opinion and I will leave that uncommented.

Isn't that what literally all of these posts are? Personal opinion?

"I like KF1 because..."
"I like KF2 because..."
"KF1 is the best because..."
"KF2 sucks because..."

We can point out obvious things that are fact, but at the end of the day, claiming one side over the other is all opinion. We can point out the fact that one game worked one way, but we can't claim it as fact that said way is superior.

 

[q3.railgun]

All those high level players raging (me included) because somebody "messed up" their kill by merely trying to contribute. This mentality is just overglorified.

I just wanted to pick at this one point with one example when I tried a public game about a month ago. Door BSK one side, dual COM other side and a DEM firing random rockets everywhere. I just picked off problematic zeds for the BSK (Sirens, Husks) as a GS. W7, I get back to camp first double FP spawn with nothing else. Quickly kill one without damage taken, reload, rocket comes flying in with no nade for stun or any proper killing setup. I can't see anything, so I parry one hit only to have him fire again to re-rage, I parry a second hit, and he finally kills it.

The situation went from could have had 2 dead FP to I unnecessarily took 2 hits because of this guy. I told him that I would have had that under control and I took 2 unneeded hits. His response : "It's not your kill dude, it's a team game".

I'm pretty sure KF2 is the first coop game I've ever played where taking damage is better than not taking damage.

There's a difference between being an elitist and complaining about getting their kills stolen and keeping the team safe by cleanly getting a kill.

There's a lot of misinterpretation about what is teamplay, a certain user here was one of the best team effort players out there. He spent a lot of time coming up with team combos that KF1 players would balk at, but deep down even he understood that the priority of the game is getting through all the waves with less damage done to your team (keeping your life precious). If that meant letting that GS/BSK solo and you instead focus on making sure that said player is able to keep a 1v1 situtation then he did it. Not because it was "his kill" but because it was the best situation for the team.

Using teamplay as an excuse to dismiss KF1 combo players is a pretty low blow IMO. The essence of KF1 combo players brought the mentality of team SC decap with EMP first until they got good enough to just solo kill them, no circle strafe, no cheap AI glitches. Just flatout using the game to it's fullest potential at the current time (v100. And that's exactly it, the people that were KF1 combo players were the ones that understood how KF1 worked which translated into them understanding how KF2 worked. Freeze nade, flash bang, EMP and GS nade stun : All of these originated from a concept that was brought to us from those exact players that you hate on so much.