RO1 vs RO2

[Josef Nader]

words

That's not what I'm saying at all.

My point is that for the last few years the only people playing RO1 have been the experienced vets because all the casual kiddies had run off to play something else.

Right now all the casual kiddies are playing RO2, and it's detrimental to gameplay (running and gunning, suicidal tactics, etc.). Wait for them to get bored and leave to the next latest-and-greatest game and you'll be left with a core group of gamers very similar to the vets from RO1.

So yeah, right now there are a lot of non-team-players playing. Wait for them to leave and you'll see what I'm saying about RO2 being deeper tactically. It was easy for RO1 to be tactical the last few years, because only the tactical players were still playing it. Give RO2 a chance to chase off the kids, and you'll see what folks can accomplish now.

 

[Cyper]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

My point is that for the last few years the only people playing RO1 have been the experienced vets because all the casual kiddies had run off to play something else.

Right now all the casual kiddies are playing RO2, and it's detrimental to gameplay (running and gunning, suicidal tactics, etc.). Wait for them to get bored and leave to the next latest-and-greatest game and you'll be left with a core group of gamers very similar to the vets from RO1.

So yeah, right now there are a lot of non-team-players playing. Wait for them to leave and you'll see what I'm saying about RO2 being deeper tactically. It was easy for RO1 to be tactical the last few years, because only the tactical players were still playing it. Give RO2 a chance to chase off the kids, and you'll see what folks can accomplish now.

I see, and I guess that's a good reason for me not to sell the game just yet. Still, I feel that the fact that it's possible to play in this way kinda speak for itself: the game is made to be played as that aswell, since it's possible.

However, the major problem remains, which is in the core gameplay. Even if only the tactical gamers will be left the lockdown timer will still be there unless It's removed which I think is very unlikely. The simplified weapon handling, simplified command radial - and all this stuff, will still be there, unless TWI are willing to fix all this.

Obviously, we have modders, but it's not the mod teams job to fix the entire core gameplay. It's up to TWI.

 

[SCandChives]

The simplified weapon handling, simplified command radial - and all this stuff, will still be there, unless TWI are willing to fix all this.

Unless I misunderstood, (correct me if so) you think thats a bad thing?making a game a pain in the *** to play and it becomes exactly that, a pain in the ***. Lockdown certainly needs some changes though IMO.

Something I posted in another thread-
"...on the forums I've noticed many people saying that the game isn't tactical enough and that there is too much run'n'gun style gameplay. However from my experiences (and partly common sense perhaps) "tactical gameplay" requires teams to actually work together and communicate, and the game can only do so much to promote that, the rest is up to the players. I've noticed that when teams communicate and work together they obliterate the enemy team, and when both teams are doing the same you get some really exciting and tense gameplay. Even on Spartanovka as the Germans a coordinated 'banzai' charge right down the centre can destroy a team of Russians all doing their own thing. Proper squad tactics and communication on Apartments and the like stops run'n'gunners in their tracks. So anyone complaining that RO2 isn't tactical; a little communication and teamwork goes a long way."

Link to the thread-[URL]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=937910#post937910[/URL]
It got buried under the hordes of other threads pretty quickly.

 

[Josef Nader]

I see, and I guess that's a good reason for me not to sell the game just yet. Still, I feel that the fact that it's possible to play in this way kinda speak for itself: the game is made to be played as that aswell, since it's possible.

Well, it's -possible- to play this way in RO1. The main difference between RO1 and RO2 is that RO2 had a -lot- more momentum at launch. Launch week sales alone outsold the lifetime sales of RO1. Just think about that for a minute. Very few people had heard of RO1 at launch, and people have trickled in throughout it's lifespan. People came in and -tried- to run and gun, and were quickly smacked back down by the players that had -already- established the best tactics, knew the maps, etc. The run-and-gunners were forced to learn how to play right or quit.

Now, the tactical players and the run-and-gunners are on an even footing, but not by game design. Tactics take time to develop, and there's a lot of trial and error involved in figuring out the best positions and strategies. Run-and-gunners are very aggressive by default, which is an effective tactic, especially against an unprepared defender. So, it seems that the game caters to the run-and-gun crowd because they seem to do so well. It doesn't. Give the game a few months and the core players will have developed a really kickass set of strategies for each map, and the run-and-gunners aren't going to be getting any better. They'll have to calm down and play smart or find something else to play.

However, the major problem remains, which is in the core gameplay. Even if only the tactical gamers will be left the lockdown timer will still be there unless It's removed which I think is very unlikely. The simplified weapon handling, simplified command radial - and all this stuff, will still be there, unless TWI are willing to fix all this.

Obviously, we have modders, but it's not the mod teams job to fix the entire core gameplay. It's up to TWI.

The command radial is a problem? Seems to have all the orders that someone would conceivably need with fewer button presses than the last one, plus the 3D command widget. The weapon mechanics are debatable, as I've made pretty obvious (), and the lockdown timer sucks eggs.

 

[Zookerman]

God forbid the controls are easy to use! And weapons should recoil into the sky making it impossible to hit anything!

I want to play a somewhat realistic WWII game not QWOP with impossible to use weapons, get real you hipster.

I accidentally approved of this post

The controls are worse in Red Orchestra 2. While trying to give an MG guy ammo,your avatar will go in and out of cover. (Binding everything to a single key is a terrible idea and only appeals to former console players.)

You cant turn the turret of your tank without looking through the sites anymore. (Battlefield-like tank controls wont work in ro2 due to the tank's significantly worse blindspots)
There were steps taken in Red Orchestra Ostfront you took while manning the turret. Step 1 was to spot the target,step 2 was to turn in the enemies general direction,and step 3 was to look through your scope at the enemy tank (You may also have to adjust your range or compensate for bullet drop).

 

[Ermac]

I've been playing since Ostfront, and I think RO2 is a much better game.

 

[catfish@rock]

RO2's Graphic's good.
small change for accessibility is sort of good.

Highly accurate and quick aiming weapon nicht gut
muzzled gun/explosion sound nicht gut
quick bandage system emulating pseudo COD health regen nicht gut.
poor optimization nicht gut.

no more RO1, insurgency mod, ARMA2 PR desperate, ruthless harsh battleground vibe? nein danke!
That vibe was the major reason I bought ro2 other than mindless arcade shooters.

I am disappointed......I never asked for this k

Knowing that TWI will never officially change semi arcade game to former hardcore tactical shooter, only thing I can trust are mod community....

This isn't what I expected at all.....
AWWW

 

[Ermac]

RO2's Graphic's good.
small change for accessibility is sort of good.

Highly accurate and quick aiming weapon nicht gut
muzzled gun/explosion sound nicht gut
quick bandage system emulating pseudo COD health regen nicht gut.
poor optimization nicht gut.

no more RO1, insurgency mod, ARMA2 PR desperate, ruthless harsh battleground vibe? nein danke!
That vibe was the major reason I bought ro2 other than mindless arcade shooters.

I am disappointed......I never asked for this k

Knowing that TWI will never officially change semi arcade game to former hardcore tactical shooter, only thing I can trust are mod community....

This isn't what I expected at all.....
AWWW

1.Highly accurate and quick aiming weapon nicht gut. Like mentioned, fantasy Ro OST front weapon sway? It's not realistic. What do you expect?
2.I think they sound alright.
3.It's not realistic that you can bandage wounds so quickly so many times, but consider this, Ostfront had no bleeding at all. Is that realistic?
4.True, poorly optimized.

 

[the_Monk]

RO2's Graphic's good.
small change for accessibility is sort of good.

Highly accurate and quick aiming weapon nicht gut
muzzled gun/explosion sound nicht gut
quick bandage system emulating pseudo COD health regen nicht gut.
poor optimization nicht gut.

no more RO1, insurgency mod, ARMA2 PR desperate, ruthless harsh battleground vibe? nein danke!
That vibe was the major reason I bought ro2 other than mindless arcade shooters.

I am disappointed......I never asked for this k

Knowing that TWI will never officially change semi arcade game to former hardcore tactical shooter, only thing I can trust are mod community....

This isn't what I expected at all.....
AWWW

Wait......you expected a company to make a game (game being the operative word here......you know FUN!?) intentionaly designed for a smaller audience? You're asking a company to intentionally make design choices which would net them LESS money on purpose? Good luck!

1. Flashpoint/ArmA are the military SIMS. Before I got married, had 3 kids and various other stressors in my life I used to crave the "realism" found there. Guess what? These days I expect the FUN in my games to outweigh the "oh **** I just crawled for 2 miles and tock-tock now I'm dead and get to do it all over again" momemts. My life is realistic enough, these days I play games to escape that level of "realism".

2. RO2 is not mindless aracde. RO2 is strikes a pretty good balance between realism FPS evolution and a return to the tactical shooters of old (ie. original Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear). The shooting mechanics are no quicker than in the original R6 or in Rogue Spear and anyone who would claim that those 2 games weren't TACTICAL is just being an idiot. RO2 was never supposed to be a MILSIM......it was to be a TACTICAL shooter. Which it absolutely is. Of course just because a game is meant to be played in a tactical fashion does not mean people are FORCED to do so.

Sometimes I get the impression the delusional RO1 vets on here (I am an RO1 vet myself) simply want certain game mechanics in RO2 for no other reason than to PUNISH those NOT playing the game the way they think it should be played. That's just nuts.

You want a MILSIM go play Flashpoint, ArmA etc. (btw......RO1 wasn't a MILSIM either.....it just punished people for trying to play the game in different ways.....that doesn't mean it's the better game). You cannot on any level compare RO1 or RO2 to a MILSIM. So stop with that craziness thank you!

You want tactical options come play RO2. RO2 is all about that.....OPTIONS! I can pick up an SMG or other automatic and do some run-n-gunny assault goodness, I can also use my trusty boltie and one-shot those same "run-n-gunners". I can choose to be a lone-wolf and not help the team and just play selfishly or I can do the opposite help the team (maybe even COMMAND the team) and lead the side to victory (or loss if I'm sucking....hehe ). Options.......you have them in RO2.

You want regimented, semi-realistic, harsh penalties for "trying something different", large-scale campfests that feel like a WW2-skinned version of whack-a-mole? Well......you know where to go.......go backwards......keep walking backwards.......there....when you bump into RO1.......you've found your heaven.

 

[catfish@rock]

1.Highly accurate and quick aiming weapon nicht gut. Like mentioned, fantasy Ro OST front weapon sway? It's not realistic. What do you expect?
2.I think they sound alright.
3.It's not realistic that you can bandage wounds so quickly so many times, but consider this, Ostfront had no bleeding at all. Is that realistic?
4.True, poorly optimized.

1.
It's not only about sway, not to mention basic sway is too slow and steady even after sprinting unlike ARMA 2 sway based on fatigue, movement,
ARMA2 has pretty decent presentation of breath effect on sway which RO2 almost doesn't have at all.

RO2's quick ADS speed and less time required to hit distant target accurately was already discussed and proven much easy to hit target in shorter time than real gun does.

There is thread by cyper about this issue in opinion forum.


2. In my former post in this thread, I uploaded real gun sound, ro1's gun sound and ro2's gun sound and how they are all different and ro1 is relatively closer to real gun sound.


3. overall realism in ro2 is damaged by bandage system.

Ro2 doesn't have system where injury affects movement or aiming capability.

ro1 didn't have bleeding system, yet when you get shot in the arm, player dropped the weapon and aiming got worse.
if you get shot in the leg you start to limp.

Ro2's all kind of injury heals up magically with 1 second bandaging which probably will not be possible until distant future.

Plus, if you really get shot in any part of your body in real battlefield your battle capacity will be severely damaged maybe much worse than what RO1 describes.
and what's worse, in real life, if you got shot to bleed severely that alone means you're pretty much incapatitated and your battle for the day is over.

 

[CaptHawkeye]

RO2's quick ADS speed and less time required to hit distant target accurately was already discussed and proven much easy to hit target in shorter time than real gun.

No it wasn't.

There is thread by cyper about this issue in opinion forum.

Their has been nothing conclusive to warrant serious changes to the gameplay design. I saw that thread, as usual, everyone just posted what they thought and walked away from that thread thinking they "won" the argument. Still totally oblivious to what they were even arguing about.

 

[catfish@rock]

To monk

RO1, insurgency mod was somewhere between ARMA and arcade shooters.
RO1, insurgency mod is ARMA PR's CQC edition to be precise.

Many fans liked that about RO1 and expected same thing for RO2.
And that was RO's unique feature that other arcade shooters didn't have.
ARMA's CQC edition in WW2.

TWI is basically started their business with red orchestra mod which was back then a dead serious mod of unreal tournament? 2.

Some newbies who don't know about past might beg to differ but RO was basically meant to be a serious gamer's tactical shooter.
ARMA's CQC edition.

RO series originally distinguished itself from countless arcade shooter with its dead serious realism theme, hardcore gamedesign.

Now it got mixed up choices that it almost feel closer to arcady shooter (not exactly arcade shooter but not quite feel like ro1 nor arma pr, but more arcadic.)

Now TWI is trying to make money from broader audience risking original hardcore fans.
It the trend persists, many hardcore fans will start to lose faith in TWI, and as always only thing that saves TWI will be modders just like from their start.

 

[catfish@rock]

No it wasn't.



Their has been nothing conclusive to warrant serious changes to the gameplay design. I saw that thread, as usual, everyone just posted what they thought and walked away from that thread thinking they "won" the argument. Still totally oblivious to what they were even arguing about.

Here is comparison thread. Thread was not posted by cyper but by modder gentrinity who also had doubts about original weapon handling, and researching for accurate statistics and hard data for his mod creation.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=68417


In ARMA2 project reality mod (arma2's PVP mod), it's very hard to kill 5,6 opfor in cqc in short time, however in RO2 it's not that hard.
That alone well explains RO2's more arcadic gamedesin.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Listening is an important part of the gameplay.

In Ostfront is much easier to guess the position of someone firing at you

And that's not realistic at all. Try telling me where exactly a gunshot came from in an urban environment. It's very, very hard to tell where someone's exact position is out in the open, let alone when dealing with reverb off of buildings. That's an example of 'Fantasy Realism'.

If you don't own RO1, play insurgency mod (on steam free download : half life 2 mod) instead to feel the ruthless, harsh battleground atmosphere. of RO1.

From no BS cracking thumping bullet sound flying right beside you, uncontrollable muzzle kick back, insurgency mod has basically same core gun play/ squad coop element as RO1.

And they were created by same modder who originally created RO1 though he's no longer working with TWI.

In my opinion, RO1, insurgency mod kind of games have rare BS to please mainstream, so very brutal, ruthless gameplay which many hardcore gamers like.

Though RO2 has realistic theme of former series, no one can deny it incorporated many gamedesign choices for mainstream, children to enjoy the game easily.

RO1, insurgency mod is much more brutal, harsh, some might say they are the closest thing you can experience the ruthless battlefield on pc.

so, you're more softcore FPS kind of gamer RO2 is fine, but you accept no BS...and want ruthless, harsh battlefield RO1 is better for you..

Most of this is baseless conjecture. The Insurgency mod plays like any other shooter. It is ridiculously easy to pull off shots that would be a lot tougher in RO:OST or RO2 simply because it uses hitscan instead of individual bullet ballistics.

Ost and Insurgency is more brutal and harsh? Get real. Both have extremely 'gamey' aspects to them; OST includes clunky weapon handling (unrealistic full-auto recoil), dive bayoneting, dive shooting, pop-up shooting, and more. Insurgency has its own fair share of game aspects, like popping around a corner and nailing someone across the map instantly due to Hitscan. I am not suggesting that RO2 doesn't have any issues, but Ost and INS are 'ruthless and harsh'? No.

 

[Reise]

Here is comparison thread. Thread was not posted by cyper but by modder gentrinity who also had doubts about original weapon handling, and researching for accurate statistics and hard data for his mod creation.

[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=68417[/URL]


In arma pr, it's very hard to kill 5,6 opfor in cqc in short time, however in RO2 it's not that hard.

And immediately people poked holes in his analysis.

PR isn't the hands down, 100% solid, only way to do realism in games. It should never be "hard" to use your weapon.

 

[pepihoh]

You want regimented, semi-realistic, harsh penalties for "trying something different", large-scale campfests that feel like a WW2-skinned version of whack-a-mole? Well......you know where to go.......go backwards......keep walking backwards.......there....when you bump into RO1.......you've found your heaven.

Actually, that is what happens in RO2, the moment you show your head you get blasted in the oblivion form some guy camping at the spawn thanks to the zoom. In ro1 you would actually get in close because everyone looked like two pixels after 100m. It was not realistic but at least it stopped things like getting sniped from an enemy camping in a house you cant even see because of this bloody mist that happens to plague some winter maps.(like fallen fighters) I would say that camping and chilling out behind objectives is much more easier to do in RO2

 

[catfish@rock]

Sometimes it should be harder than RO2.

This is why.

Did you actually carry guns and all the military issued equipment, military uniform and boots which are not at all comfortable and run and walk for some kilometers?

Did you ever see a picture of infantry soldiers in battleground who is cleanly showered, shaved, or smiling genuinely?

No, in real life infantry soldiers in battle situation they live like pigs.....sleeping on the ground, haven't taken shower for weeks or months at least. food supply isn't good as civilian's normal diet. it's sheetty.

It's rather hard and tiring, anyone with military training experience would understand.

With bunch of military gears and guns and fatigue from walking, running, and people get tired really fast if he's under serious mental stress (i.e. constant battlefield stress of getting shot and instantly dead.)

In real life military situation, all these physical, mental stress more or less hinders soldiers from being top notch qualified shooter all the time like RO2 says.

That's why run and gunning in game should be more difficult than arcade shooters, in real life with all the heavy gears and mental stress, it's not easy to run and shoot, it's really really tiring thing to do.

So, if it want to be realistic, it should be hard, as in real life, if you try to do the exactly same thing as in game avatar does, trust me, it's really really hard.

Even if you're a top notch athelete, fighting battle as a soldier is tiring, exhauting thing to do, not easy breeze like arcade games describes.

 

[the_Monk]

Sometimes it should be harder than RO2.

This is why.

Did you actually carry guns and all the military issued equipment, military uniform and boots which are not at all comfortable and run and walk for some kilometers?

It's rather hard and tiring, anyone with military training experience would understand.

With bunch of military gears and guns and fatigue from walking, running, and people get tired really fast if he's under serious mental stress (i.e. constant battlefield stress of getting shot and instantly dead.)

In real life military situation, all these physical, mental stress more or less hinders soldiers from being top notch qualified shooter all the time like RO2 says.

That's why run and gunning in game should be more difficult than arcade shooters, in real life with all the heavy gears and mental stress, it's not easy to run and shoot, it's really really tiring thing to do.

So, if it want to be realistic, it should be hard, as in real life, if you try to do the exactly same thing as in game avatar does, it's really hard.

My reply to your earlier post still stands. You are saying nothing new so I guess I don't have to reply with anything new. hehe

Wait......you expected a company to make a game (game being the operative word here......you know FUN!?) intentionaly designed for a smaller audience? You're asking a company to intentionally make design choices which would net them LESS money on purpose? Good luck!

1. Flashpoint/ArmA are the military SIMS. Before I got married, had 3 kids and various other stressors in my life I used to crave the "realism" found there. Guess what? These days I expect the FUN in my games to outweigh the "oh **** I just crawled for 2 miles and tock-tock now I'm dead and get to do it all over again" momemts. My life is realistic enough, these days I play games to escape that level of "realism".

2. RO2 is not mindless aracde. RO2 is strikes a pretty good balance between realism FPS evolution and a return to the tactical shooters of old (ie. original Rainbow Six and Rogue Spear). The shooting mechanics are no quicker than in the original R6 or in Rogue Spear and anyone who would claim that those 2 games weren't TACTICAL is just being an idiot. RO2 was never supposed to be a MILSIM......it was to be a TACTICAL shooter. Which it absolutely is. Of course just because a game is meant to be played in a tactical fashion does not mean people are FORCED to do so.

Sometimes I get the impression the delusional RO1 vets on here (I am an RO1 vet myself) simply want certain game mechanics in RO2 for no other reason than to PUNISH those NOT playing the game the way they think it should be played. That's just nuts.

You want a MILSIM go play Flashpoint, ArmA etc. (btw......RO1 wasn't a MILSIM either.....it just punished people for trying to play the game in different ways.....that doesn't mean it's the better game). You cannot on any level compare RO1 or RO2 to a MILSIM. So stop with that craziness thank you!

You want tactical options come play RO2. RO2 is all about that.....OPTIONS! I can pick up an SMG or other automatic and do some run-n-gunny assault goodness, I can also use my trusty boltie and one-shot those same "run-n-gunners". I can choose to be a lone-wolf and not help the team and just play selfishly or I can do the opposite help the team (maybe even COMMAND the team) and lead the side to victory (or loss if I'm sucking....hehe ). Options.......you have them in RO2.

You want regimented, semi-realistic, harsh penalties for "trying something different", large-scale campfests that feel like a WW2-skinned version of whack-a-mole? Well......you know where to go.......go backwards......keep walking backwards.......there....when you bump into RO1.......you've found your heaven.

 

[monster]

First off, the thing about audio is plain and straight off lying. Audio is far better in RO2. Guns sound like guns and not hollywood-guns or explosives.

Yes, and voices sound like they're from radio ear pieces.

Sound fails.

 

[catfish@rock]

Most of this is baseless conjecture. The Insurgency mod plays like any other shooter. It is ridiculously easy to pull off shots that would be a lot tougher in RO:OST or RO2 simply because it uses hitscan instead of individual bullet ballistics.

Ost and Insurgency is more brutal and harsh? Get real. Both have extremely 'gamey' aspects to them; OST includes clunky weapon handling (unrealistic full-auto recoil), dive bayoneting, dive shooting, pop-up shooting, and more. Insurgency has its own fair share of game aspects, like popping around a corner and nailing someone across the map instantly due to Hitscan. I am not suggesting that RO2 doesn't have any issues, but Ost and INS are 'ruthless and harsh'? No.[/QUOTE]


I am not saying RO OST, insugency mod has gimmicks to be entertaining games. but RO2 feel much easier to play and kill bunch of opfor in short time ,cqc than in ROOST, insurgency mod.

This, I lie you not. RO2 is easier than those and really lacks that ruthless, harsh battlefield vibe.

I bet many other gaming vets feel the same.