Realism id

[D3terioNation]

Deathsai I am sure you cannot possible speak for all civilians in all battles...thats just naivety at its finest. And what about when we get to the city maps? The maps have basements and bunkers where the civies would hide...and especially in Berlin...I am sure you would see some civilians....

Id sure love to find me some sweet piece of german ass to....

J/k

Seriously though, it is assumed that the civilians have all been evacuated

 

[Deathsai]

Deathsai I am sure you cannot possible speak for all civilians in all battles...thats just naivety at its finest. And what about when we get to the city maps? The maps have basements and bunkers where the civies would hide...and especially in Berlin...I am sure you would see some civilians....

The only time I've heard of civillians being found on front-line firefights is when the soldiers did break into basements, and they usually left the civillians alone. You know, they were kind of preoccupied with killing the enemy. What, therefore, is the point of adding civillians? Something for some idiot to shoot for fun and give away your position?

If we're going to go so far as including civillians, we should also be doing things like putting in female soldiers and bomb dogs for the Soviets.

 

[Ron]

Yea there's no point people are looking for a military sim not GTA:RO but then again drive by tankins does sound cool nah i'll be happy with a civilain free ro

 

[Aleksandr]

Having civilians around would make this an even more in-depth Military sim, it wouldn't be GTA-esque at all. I don't think there should be hundreds and hundreds of them running around the streets screaming and cowering for their lives. But it would be nice to see a few. Perhaps you shell a building, and a family quickly scurries out all dazed and confused looking for cover. Or you find Civilian bots picking up dropped rifles and firing on the invading soldiers. It'd add a sense of realism that most games have been lacking.

I do see where some people would be offended though, or perhaps some parents would be offended seeing an unarmed family being shot while they hid in a corner. But I also feel that is what happened during the war, soldiers did not just "turn and forget" about the civilians ALL the time. Some did execute them. I mean could you honestly expect some fanatical German soldier to put his back to a Russian civilian that could kill him? I doubt it, and I mean no offense to any German members by that.

 

[Shepherd]

Or you find Civilian bots picking up dropped rifles and firing on the invading soldiers. It'd add a sense of realism that most games have been lacking.

rofl. i'm happy ro won't feature that kind of 'realism'.

Some did execute them. I mean could you honestly expect some fanatical German soldier to put his back to a Russian civilian that could kill him? I doubt it, and I mean no offense to any German members by that.

i'm just guessing but honestly i don't think they were shot because the germans were scared of them.

i think the whole idea is rather senseless in terms of gameplay. there is no point in adding civilians to the maps only to be massacred by wannabe waffen ss kiddos.

 

[SingeDebile]

Americas army has it... ie this is in response to people saying it would not work for an online game

Americas army is probobly the only online fps that can be compared with RO as they both strive to be as realistic as possible.

 

[Deathsai]

Or you find Civilian bots picking up dropped rifles and firing on the invading soldiers. It'd add a sense of realism that most games have been lacking.

Uh, what the hell kind of realism is that? Please, tell me where you find that to be realistic.

In every single WWII account I've read, hell, in every WWII movie I've watched (Even the cheap Hollywood ones with zero realism in them at all!) the civillians were all either evacuated or cowering in basements or hiding under beds. Some may, very rarely have wandered out into the streets, but it would be such a small chance for them to pop up so close to a firefight.

Americas army has it... ie this is in response to people saying it would not work for an online game

And they are all cowering in corners. They don't even move or get down, even when there are bullets zipping right by them. They are more like static objects than anything else. Very realistic.

Americas army is probobly the only online fps that can be compared with RO as they both strive to be as realistic as possible.

Haha...yeah, those crosshairs sure are realistic.

 

[Fedorov]

It would be weird as hell having civilians running nowhere shaking their arms in the air in panic just like in carmageddon 2 xD

 

[Aleksandr]

Well apparently you know squat about WWII, Deathsai. For one, it wasn't a movie. Basing anything off movies, even those that are based on actual events that took place in the war is moronic. Here's one major battle that anyone interested in the Russian side of the war should already know. . .Stalingrad. Citizens were not only forbidden to evacuate that city, many of them helped with the building of fortifications, and some even formed militias.

Leningrad over one million civilian casualties.

Moscow Civilian volunteers were sent in against German machine guns. Don't know the cost of their lives, but Civilians were there.

Berlin Over a hundred thousand Civilians were killed, German civilians were also armed with Panzerfausts and used them against Russian vehicles.

Halbe Several thousand civilians were killed during the battle.

I know there were more than that, but to just end it without going in to it all, there were over a million civilian deaths in Germany and over thirteen million in Russia. So to say every civilian was evacuated, and to claim that that many people were cowards that just ran and hid in their basement and none of them attempted to fight, which is completely false as there are many historical instances where they did fight back, is as I said, inconceivably foolish.

That doesn't mean put them in the game, but it also means you cant say "Oh no, that's a stupid idea because there were little to no civilians around."

 

[Deathsai]

Well apparently you know squat about WWII, Deathsai. For one, it wasn't a movie. Basing anything off movies, even those that are based on actual events that took place in the war is moronic. Here's one major battle that anyone interested in the Russian side of the war should already know. . .Stalingrad. Citizens were not only forbidden to evacuate that city, many of them helped with the building of fortifications, and some even formed militias.

Building fortifications is not something we do in RO. And militias would probably be outfitted and attached to Soviet units. If you're suggesting a skin that isn't exactly in a complete Soviet uniform, that is 100% different from some random guy running out of his home, grabbing a rifle from a dead soldier, and firing at the enemy.

Leningrad over one million civilian casualties.

Leningrad was more of a siege. Germany basically planned to make sure there was not a single object in the city more than an inch above ground level, and hand over the rubble to the Finns.

Moscow Civilian volunteers were sent in against German machine guns. Don't know the cost of their lives, but Civilians were there.

Yes, but those are volunteers. These might as well be considered any other regular Soviet soldier who spawns in on a Moscow map.

Berlin Over a hundred thousand Civilians were killed, German civilians were also armed with Panzerfausts and used them against Russian vehicles.

That one might be more understandable, but still, I imagine that most civillians were integrated into German military squads.

Halbe Several thousand civilians were killed during the battle.

I don't know much about this battle, but several thousand dead civillians doesn't mean that they were charging the enemy with their uniformed countrymen.

I know there were more than that, but to just end it without going in to it all, there were over a million civilian deaths in Germany and over thirteen million in Russia. So to say every civilian was evacuated, and to claim that that many people were cowards that just ran and hid in their basement and none of them attempted to fight, which is completely false as there are many historical instances where they did fight back, is as I said, inconceivably foolish.

Right, because, you know...Artillery, bombers, and bored Schutzstaffel and Guards troopers don't kill a lot of civillians.

That doesn't mean put them in the game, but it also means you cant say "Oh no, that's a stupid idea because there were little to no civilians around."

You still haven't shown me an account that says, "A lot of random guys ran out into the streets and grabbed weapons and tried to kill the enemy." All you've done is shown me statistics of dead civillians. Hell, that kind of "contribution" might have even be resented by their countrymen, instead of appreciated.

 

[Aleksandr]

One, most of those were not to be taken as proof of civilian combat. You said "In every single WWII account I've read, hell, in every WWII movie I've watched (Even the cheap Hollywood ones with zero realism in them at all!) the civillians were all either evacuated or cowering in basements or hiding under beds. Some may, very rarely have wandered out into the streets, but it would be such a small chance for them to pop up so close to a firefight."

As for proof of random people picking up weapons and fighting, my great grandfather was awarded the HotSU for deeds he comitted in the War. And he was a Civilian, in a city. Other than that, no, I cant give further proof. But even then, by your claim that means all Civilians, Russian or otherwise are cowards. Can you disprove that people did not pick up a weapon and fight, or may have had a weapon and fought when everything else looked hopeless? Or are you just content in sitting there and saying "All those civilians were cowards, they sat in their homes waiting for the fighting to end"

This will be the last time I post on this matter, it was merely someones idea, I gave my praise to the realism it could add having civilians present, even if they were just hiding. I've also taken in to account that they would just be rifle-fodder and many may be offended. Don't feel the need to argue with you over an aspect that obviously won't be in the game.

-Aleksandr

 

[Tanis]

Okay, this arguement is just getting stupid.

I'm sure that civilians on all sides of the war were more than willing to pick up arms against the invaders, regardless of whom those invaders happened to be. The French and Dutch Resistances were comprised of regular civilians, and I've no doubt that a Russian civilian would have gladly picked up a rifle and taken pot shots at any German that happened to be nearby. I doubt anyone here would question the courage and fortitude of the average civilian during times of war.

That being said, this isn't real life. Many of you call RO a 'military sim'. Well, it's about as realistic a game as they come, for sure, but a game nonetheless. Before something like this could be implemented, there's a few things that changes like this need to be held up against. Like, will a change like this actually improve the gameplay? And, how long would a change like this take the Devs to code and implement properly?

America's Army gets away with the civilians because of the Honor system. Shoot a civilian, even by accident, and your ROE goes through the roof, having a rather noticable effect on your Honor points.

There's no such system in place for RO, and thusly, no consequences. Having civilians in the maps would be cool at first but, eventually, shooting them would become just one of those things you do at the start of each round, like attaching your bayonet, just to make sure that they don't happen to get in the way later on.

For the second point, the amount of time and effort that the Devs would have to take to implement civilian bots that can walk around with some resembalnce of intelligence, as welll as pick up weapons and engage in the battle, would be far, far better off working to repair glitches that will certainly crop up, or adding new maps and/or weapons/tanks/etc. I'd much rather have my Mauser C96 back (since I just noticed it's vacancy in the weapons list), than to see random NPC civilians running around.

On top of that, NPC bots like this are just another non-static element that each server would have to keep track of, and devote memory to, which would almost certainly contribute to lag and slowdown.



If people feel that civilians played such a massive roll in engagements, then they should be implemented through means of a selectable class. Weapons loadouts could be completely random, including weapons from the opposite side as civilians would likely have grabbed anything they could get, and a specialty set of skins could be made for that class.

 

[Deathsai]

One, most of those were not to be taken as proof of civilian combat. You said "In every single WWII account I've read, hell, in every WWII movie I've watched (Even the cheap Hollywood ones with zero realism in them at all!) the civillians were all either evacuated or cowering in basements or hiding under beds. Some may, very rarely have wandered out into the streets, but it would be such a small chance for them to pop up so close to a firefight."

As for proof of random people picking up weapons and fighting, my great grandfather was awarded the HotSU for deeds he comitted in the War. And he was a Civilian, in a city. Other than that, no, I cant give further proof. But even then, by your claim that means all Civilians, Russian or otherwise are cowards. Can you disprove that people did not pick up a weapon and fight, or may have had a weapon and fought when everything else looked hopeless? Or are you just content in sitting there and saying "All those civilians were cowards, they sat in their homes waiting for the fighting to end"

I never said that they were cowards. If there were bullets flying through my window, and I was an unarmed civillian, I'd probably run down to a cellar and **** myself for a few hours, too. This is about you giving a reason as to why they should be implemented, which you have failed to do. Small things like this and FG-42s are not added because of their rare occurances-the Devs themselves had said that. As soon as you can prove that this was a common thing on the Eastern Front, it may be up for consideration.

This will be the last time I post on this matter, it was merely someones idea, I gave my praise to the realism it could add having civilians present, even if they were just hiding. I've also taken in to account that they would just be rifle-fodder and many may be offended. Don't feel the need to argue with you over an aspect that obviously won't be in the game.

-Aleksandr

And I've tried to show you how unrealistic and stupid it would be to have civillians running around. Just adding civillians to hide in a cellar would be a pointless feature, too. Should they do it like America's Army, and have civillians as pointless static objects?

I'm sure that civilians on all sides of the war were more than willing to pick up arms against the invaders, regardless of whom those invaders happened to be. The French and Dutch Resistances were comprised of regular civilians, and I've no doubt that a Russian civilian would have gladly picked up a rifle and taken pot shots at any German that happened to be nearby. I doubt anyone here would question the courage and fortitude of the average civilian during times of war.

Don't say, "I'm sure..." Show me actual accounts, not what you think happend. I know that I've never read a single account of random civillians fighting as individuals and taking pot shots at the enemy. I do most certainly know that partisan units were used, and that militia groups and volunteers were sent into the line to fight alongside regular soldiers.

I won't doubt that Aleksandr's great grandfather was a Hero of the Soviet Union recipient. However, he didn't explain how he won that. If I could hear the story on what deed he did as a civillian in the city, it would definetly intrigue not only me but all the other members of this forum.

 

[Tanis]

Well, if you're absolutly set on continuing this debate, then fine.

For starters, you have the Resistances of most of the then occupied countries. France had the Maquis, Yugoslavia had the Narodno oslobodilacka vojska i partizanski odredi Jugoslavije (People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachment, and if anyone can pronounce the Polish name, good on ya), Poland had the Armia Krajowa, Ukraine had the Ukrainska Povstanska Armiya (Ukrainian Insurgant Army), even Russia had a Resistance group, though I'm not sure on what the name of it is.

Oh, but wait. You're not looking for just civilians participating in combat. You want accounts of individual civilian participation. Well, obviously, there are no accounts. Unless an individual civilian happened to perform something obscenely amazing, like killing a dozen German officers at long distances, with an iron sighted rifle, with only twelve rounds of ammunition, and then manage to make it back to an military installation to report such a deed. And even then the military would have an observer go BACK and confirm that such a story is true, then the military would have to write it down in their reports, and then have to not have that report destroyed in a bombing, etc.

In fact, the only civilian record I can find is of Sulo Kolkka, a Finnish sniper who was credited with over 400 kills by an iron sighted Mosin Nagant and an additional 200 kills by sub-machine gun in a span on 105 days. I, personally, doubt this record, as no official records state that it happened, nor is there any record of Kolkka in military, or government records as even existing. But then again, that's only based off official government records, providing a plausible explanation as many records were destroyed.

In either case, if you wish to believe that the average Russian citizen would have just hunkered down and awaited either death, or capture, then perhaps you should go back and re-examine some Russian history, more specifically, the mind set of the Russian people, and their philosophies and views of the German facist invaders.

 

[Cabalistik]

No. Civilians were part of the war, but they're not part of the game. It wouldn't add anything to the gameplay and I people would just end up killing them, which would be just silly.

 

[Deathsai]

Well, if you're absolutly set on continuing this debate, then fine.

For starters, you have the Resistances of most of the then occupied countries. France had the Maquis, Yugoslavia had the Narodno oslobodilacka vojska i partizanski odredi Jugoslavije (People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachment, and if anyone can pronounce the Polish name, good on ya), Poland had the Armia Krajowa, Ukraine had the Ukrainska Povstanska Armiya (Ukrainian Insurgant Army), even Russia had a Resistance group, though I'm not sure on what the name of it is.

Oh, but wait. You're not looking for just civilians participating in combat. You want accounts of individual civilian participation. Well, obviously, there are no accounts. Unless an individual civilian happened to perform something obscenely amazing, like killing a dozen German officers at long distances, with an iron sighted rifle, with only twelve rounds of ammunition, and then manage to make it back to an military installation to report such a deed. And even then the military would have an observer go BACK and confirm that such a story is true, then the military would have to write it down in their reports, and then have to not have that report destroyed in a bombing, etc.

*Sigh* I know all of that. How many times have I told you? Here, maybe if I bold and italicize it, it will help: I DON'T DOUBT THE EXISTANCE OF PARTISAN AND RESISTANCE GROUPS.

Yes, I'm looking for individual civillian participation, because I've never heard of it in any WWII account I've read, and nobody here can give me even third-party stories of this happening frequently.

In fact, the only civilian record I can find is of Sulo Kolkka, a Finnish sniper who was credited with over 400 kills by an iron sighted Mosin Nagant and an additional 200 kills by sub-machine gun in a span on 105 days. I, personally, doubt this record, as no official records state that it happened, nor is there any record of Kolkka in military, or government records as even existing. But then again, that's only based off official government records, providing a plausible explanation as many records were destroyed.

Well, if he existed, then he WAS Finnish.

In either case, if you wish to believe that the average Russian citizen would have just hunkered down and awaited either death, or capture, then perhaps you should go back and re-examine some Russian history, more specifically, the mind set of the Russian people, and their philosophies and views of the German facist invaders.

I know the mindset of Russian people towards Nazi Germany from 1941 onward, after Barbarossa. That only means that they will be more likely join partisan or militia groups. But, if that was true, why did the Germans receive so many Russian volunteersmen, and why did the civillians who weren't part of the underground in occupied territory stay so subdued? If they did fight as individuals against the Germans in their land, why were there so many left unarmed and not fighting when the Red Army rolled back through?

You can keep saying "Well, in my mind, I think that random civillians would sprint out of their homes and, not as a part of any resistance or militia group, would fight as individuals." That doesn't mean that they actually did it. Show me some accounts of individuals fighting against their invaders as individuals and not as groups. That is what is proposed in this thread.

Besides, wouldn't the logical choice for the civillians who were so determined to eradicate their invaders be to join a resistance or partisan or militia or volunteer group? They'd be able to inflict more damage than they would as individuals, and have a much better chance of staying alive.

 

[Tanis]

Perhaps you should try re-reading my first post on this matter, because it's apparent that you read the first paragraph, and based the entire post off it.

Maybe if I bold and italicize everything other than the first paragraph, you might not be so blind to the fact that I am wholeheartidly against the idea of putting civilians in the game.

That being said, this isn't real life. Many of you call RO a 'military sim'. Well, it's about as realistic a game as they come, for sure, but a game nonetheless. Before something like this could be implemented, there's a few things that changes like this need to be held up against. Like, will a change like this actually improve the gameplay? And, how long would a change like this take the Devs to code and implement properly?

America's Army gets away with the civilians because of the Honor system. Shoot a civilian, even by accident, and your ROE goes through the roof, having a rather noticable effect on your Honor points.

There's no such system in place for RO, and thusly, no consequences. Having civilians in the maps would be cool at first but, eventually, shooting them would become just one of those things you do at the start of each round, like attaching your bayonet, just to make sure that they don't happen to get in the way later on.

For the second point, the amount of time and effort that the Devs would have to take to implement civilian bots that can walk around with some resembalnce of intelligence, as welll as pick up weapons and engage in the battle, would be far, far better off working to repair glitches that will certainly crop up, or adding new maps and/or weapons/tanks/etc. I'd much rather have my Mauser C96 back (since I just noticed it's vacancy in the weapons list), than to see random NPC civilians running around.

On top of that, NPC bots like this are just another non-static element that each server would have to keep track of, and devote memory to, which would almost certainly contribute to lag and slowdown.

If people feel that civilians played such a massive roll in engagements, then they should be implemented through means of a selectable class. Weapons loadouts could be completely random, including weapons from the opposite side as civilians would likely have grabbed anything they could get, and a specialty set of skins could be made for that class.

There? See now? In case you're still too lazy to read it all, I'll summarize.

1) Civilians in game = bad idea.

2) Civilian NPC not fighting = waste of system resources and Dev time.

3) If civilians played big enough roll to warrant being in specific map, make them playable class.

4) Civilians in game = bad idea.



I never said I had proof that they would fight as individuals. That's stupid and defies logic. Of course they would join resistances, and militias. All I said, and again you would have noticed this had you actually paid attention to my posts, was that IF a civilian happened to find themselves in a situation where they happened to have both A) a weapon, and B) the opportunity, to attack, they likely would have. I never said I had proof of this, just that it was an educated guess based on mindset of the population of the various occupied countries at the time. They wouldn't have fought from the open, as civilians are civilians and likely wouldn't want to die either. The only time they would have attacked if they had a decent chance of getting away after the fact, thusly explaining the lack of any knowledge or records of such events happening.

 

[Rrralphster]

I wouldn't recommend civi's in this game because they would replace a player spot and for now we "only" have 32 spots with maybe the possibility to add just a few more on an average server.

Technically this would add to GameState which is allready a serious issue for a more advanced engine at this time (CoD 2).

GameState (as far as I can understand it, I'm no coder but I use logic...) is a snapshot with ALL the vital information that needs to be transmitted to ALL the players. And because we are talking about a shooter this has to be as accurate as possible and timed as precise as possible because everyone needs the exact same details.
For instance, it records the vectors of players and vehicles (direction, speed and location), the status of objectives, hitpoints, ammo etc etc.
And there is even more that needs to be transmitted, things that will probably go over my head, so I stopped trying to find out what GameState exactly is.

So for technical reasons: No civi's as decoration in RO (pretty please with sugar, sprinkles, whipped cream, a big fat red cherry and a nice umbrella on top... want a cone or a cup?)

 

[D3terioNation]

Errr dude there are never gonna be civilians in the game so you can keep all that **** lolz

 

[Deathsai]

As long as we agree that adding in civillians would be bad for RO and unrealistic.