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Project Realism Changes

Holy.Death The reason why the mg34 is superior to all in CQB, is because it's like better version of the ppsh.

The ppsh is good because of:
Rate of fire 900rpm
Drum mag (71 rounds)
light (ie you run fast)

Now lol, let's look at the mg34:
fully automatic mg, shooting rifle rounds.
Rate of fire 800rpm.
Low recoil (ftw)
250 round belt (of doom)

You just need a little bit of skill and it's deadly.
 
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About running..

There are several problems involved with the movement mechanics that involve both realism, teamplay, and what kind of gameplay it promotes, and no, bigger maps won't just solve thouse issues (even on a huge map, you would still likely have indoor areas where the problems would persist). let's look at some of them:

1) Lack of momentum.
In HoS we accellerate and decellerate allmost instantly from a standstill to an all out sprint, and worse, changing direction is also instant, there is no (or atleast so little as to be pointless) momentum to overcome. This is not realistic, in real life we have to deal with the laws of acceleration, real momentum, and our own abillities to move whilst staying in balance (the need to decellerate before major direction changes, or we'll faceplant), humans cannot move the way avatars do in HoS.
It is also bad for tactical gameplay, when people can move this rapidly and unpredictably with ease, it allows for lone-wolf/Rambo style run and gun gameplay.

2) Surface type.
HoS treats every game surface the same, namely as perfectly level and clear concrete, a surface that would be easy to run on. This is only realistic if the ground you are on happens to be perfectly level and clear, but the game features many other surfaces, including snow, mud, rubble, stairs and various uphill and downhill areas, thease would all affect how fast you could move in real life, and how much "stamina" it takes to move on them (walking in sand or snow is harder work than dry ground or concrete).
I belive it would be difficult to code this, but regardless, the game's realism would be inproved if such things were taken into considderation.

3) Overall speed.
This is technically realistic in HoS, aside from the momentum and surface type issues mention above.
However, it does not promote tactical gameplay, between our limited FOV, online latency issues and the need to lead targets extra for ping, the faster we move, the more the gamplay favours the lone Rambo's who can exploit the lapses in our FOV and the latency to get a drop on people, and just as quickly run away if things go sour for them.
It's also bad for teamplay, the faster we move the quicker we get sepperated, the quicker we lose an overview of where people are and where we might be needed.
I am convinced that lowering the movement speed would improve gameplay, make it flow more realistic and team freindly.

4) Stamina.
Again it is technically realistic that we can sprint for a good while, but how it is used, the gameplay it fosters, is anything but.
If you look at war photage, you will notice that for damn near 90% of it you see soldiers moving at jogging speeds at best, not at sprinting speeds, and there is a very good reason for that: Combat is extremely hard physical work, causing soldiers to conserve their energy any chance they get, it's basic biology, it's how we are designed and we do it naturally and without thinking.
But that is not how we play video games, if you give us sprinting, we'll use it to fast-travel past the boring and get to the action, we'll sprint all the friggen time and we will sprint everywhere we go, constantly, and that is precisely why Tactical shooters, as a rule, give you less Stamina than what might be considdered "realistic", it is to foster more realistic USE of our stamina, to make us conserve it for when we need it (like when a grenade lands near us, or we have to cross a hostile street).
Couple this with low stamina in HoS having little effect on us, along with the overall speed we have and instant decelleration to a fiering stance, and you get blitz-speed gameplay that moves along at a break-neck tempo, it may be slower than CoD, but it's certainly not reprisentative of how humans move in a combat zone.


And before any of you insufferable gits say "durr, but Ost didn't have some of thouse things either hurr", let me preempt you and say "no **** Sherlock, but this is supposed to be sequal, and i for one would like for it to become better than the origional".

Yes, so there you have it, my thoughts on the movement mechanics.
 
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About running...

2) Surface type.
HoS treats every game surface the same, namely as perfectly level and clear concrete, a surface that would be easy to run on. This is only realistic if the ground you are on happens to be perfectly level and clear, but the game features many other surfaces, including snow, mud, rubble, stairs and various uphill and downhill areas, thease would all affect how fast you could move in real life, and how much "stamina" it takes to move on them (walking in sand or snow is harder work than dry ground or concrete).
I belive it would be difficult to code this, but regardless, the game's realism would be inproved if such things were taken into considderation...

I remember in the ROOST SDK it appeared that with surface textures you could assign a friction value that would have theoretically slowed down players travelling across it. Apparently it was thought about but never actually programmed into the editor for whatever reasons. Too bad...
 
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The RO community have spoken and 50% of everybody wanted game to be
more realistic, which means 400 votes and im quite sure it wont be
ignored, so realism it will be.

How ever i have seen quite many comments under realism, which doesnt
have anything to do with realism. Basicly those comments base on thinking
that RO1 was realistic, which isnt totally true. RO1 was different from all
arcade shooters, but it doesnt make it 100% realistic. Here is the list
what im thinking on current gameplay and what should be changed.

Running
Many players say that soldiers run absolutly too fast and that they should get
exhausted much easier.
That isnt true. The distances you usually run in RO2 are from 20meter to 50
meter. Any soldier can run that distance really fast. Crossing a street takes
only few secs. So problem isnt running speed, problem is that there isnt
large open areas to play. My friend refused to believe until he played
that Ogledow map where you once again run the same distances you use
to run in RO:Ost


But the real problem which make it hard to hit running target is strafeing.
You are able to strafe left and right while sprinting, which is totally
unpossible.
You can try it right now. And if somebody is able to post a
video where he is sprinting full speed and is able to strafe without losing
balance, i promise to make custom maps for you 24/7 rest of my life.
So strafe keys should be disabled while sprinting, and used for glance
to left and right.

From hip to shoulder
Some say that this also happens too fast. Again not true. You can do it really
fast, once again test by yourself. What should take longer is that weapon
aligns perfectly
. So weapon should pop up from hip to shoulder as fast
it does now and be ready for shooting. But it should take longer that its
perfectly aligned for 100 meter shot. Because that needs some focusing
compared to getting weapon from hip to shoulder which is carry out by
trained reflex.

Reloading
Well there is nothing wrong in realoading, dont change anything on it.
On Ro1 it was absolutly too slow. Like friend of mine said about RO1
who was in army while i use to play RO1 "If i would realod that slow
Sergant would make me practice it as long as it takes that i realod
twice faster".

Sway
I totally agree ingreaseing sway, at least when you stand up with weapon on your shoulder.

MG-hip fireing
That have been said really unrealistic after that one player posted video
where he is storming whole building with MG. But that player is clearly
really skilled and normal player cant use MG that effectively. And some
players say that hip fireing is unpossible at all. I have seen many
videos ww2 and nowadays, where mg is shooted from hip. Even some
ww2 footage where german mg soldier runs'n'guns, how ever i cant tell
did he manage to hit anything. But im sure it can be used for room
clearing. And after we get maps with open terrain hip fireing mg doesnt
work anymore
. However biggest problem on mg is that recoil which you
get while shooting from bipod. No it doesnt climb up, but instead push
shooter down
, which is weird and makes proper useing really hard, which
make most of the mgers to use it as a run'n'gun weapon.

Mkb42
Should be moved to elite rifleman, or which ever role got least slots.
Those who maxed assault role up because of Mkb42 get mad. Rest of
players will get happy.

Agree with everything, except for gameplay purposes, I think reloading should be a fraction longer. Of course, larger maps, or lack of, are the real problem here.
 
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About running..
[...]
That is precisely why Tactical shooters, as a rule, give you less Stamina than what might be considdered "realistic", it is to foster more realistic USE of our stamina, to make us conserve it for when we need it.

This is a good argument that could be applied to most aspects of realism in games. Even though I think the stamina level in particular is pretty balanced in RO2 ;)
 
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some very good comments and observations.

The issue isn't running, as pointed out. It is reaching maximum acceleration way too soon. This is easily observed with bayonet kills. When you drive into someone, playing football or with an 8 pound rifle with a bayonet on it, you are not able to change directions and reach top speed again in one second. It is more like 5 seconds.

And soldiers did not wear cleats.

It is also not about being able to shoulder your weapon and fire it. It is about trying to shoulder your weapon and aim it accurately when under the stress of being exposed to enemy fire. No video game can reproduce the type of stress this puts on someone. So video games need to introduce modifiers that replicate the effects of stress. Weapon sway is one of them.

It should not be depended solely on actual enemy fire. You do not know if you are being aimed at or not.

Were there soldiers with icewater in their veins, unbothered by such stress? Probably. But not that many, one would think.

This goes hand in hand with the problems of "sniping" with short barrel SMGs. Just because someone can accurately hit targets at 100 meters with an MP40 or PPSh on a firing range, does not mean they could have done it in combat when they were exposing themselves to possible death every time they stopped long enough to aim at a target.

"Effective Range" never meant accuracy when aiming. It means the range in which you could fire on an enemy position (i.e. a whole building) and expect to be close enough that you could suppress the enemy and disrupt their own effectiveness.

It never meant the range in which you could easily hit a moving target while you were exposed to enemy fire.

And - as I posted elsewhere - this game will NEVER be realistic so long as you can kill with a bayonet in less than a second by stabbing someone in the guts, and return to a full speed run a second later, but shooting the same victim with your rifle or semiauto instead means a HIGH probably they will not die, but instead will be able to kill you after they were hit and then heal themselves with a band-aid.

Bullets to the ANY part of the torso from the crotch to the neck should incapacitate, at least more so than they do now. If you do not get hit in the brain, heart or groin you have a much higher chance of surviving than you do being stabbed. That is just silly.
 
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I remember in the ROOST SDK it appeared that with surface textures you could assign a friction value that would have theoretically slowed down players travelling across it. Apparently it was thought about but never actually programmed into the editor for whatever reasons. Too bad...

Wasn't the ice on the river in Leningrad and other maps slippery?
 
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I feel like it should stop being called "realism" and just simply refer to it as "preferred gameplay style"

I agree. "Realism" is starting to become the banner that all sorts of mechanics changing request are falling under. Not to say some mechanics don't make a lick of sense, but I still maintain a lot of folks are just asking for artificial difficulty with no concern for what's actually realistic

-Paas
 
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The RO community have spoken and 50% of everybody wanted game to be
more realistic, which means 400 votes and im quite sure it wont be
ignored, so realism it will be.

How ever i have seen quite many comments under realism, which doesnt
have anything to do with realism. Basicly those comments base on thinking
that RO1 was realistic, which isnt totally true. RO1 was different from all
arcade shooters, but it doesnt make it 100% realistic. Here is the list
what im thinking on current gameplay and what should be changed.
True, and a number of these are likely personnel preferences as well.
I'm provably one of the few who is generally satisfied with how RO2 turned out, and I'm a bit of a realism nut as well (I'm also probly one of the few who did not see RO2 as only having to take place at Stalingrad, I saw the potential for a lot longer time frame, mostly from June 1941 to Around July 1943.), so I did not have as much of an issue with the MkB than many may have.

Running
Many players say that soldiers run absolutly too fast and that they should get
exhausted much easier.
That isnt true. The distances you usually run in RO2 are from 20meter to 50
meter. Any soldier can run that distance really fast. Crossing a street takes
only few secs. So problem isnt running speed, problem is that there isnt
large open areas to play. My friend refused to believe until he played
that Ogledow map where you once again run the same distances you use
to run in RO:Ost
In game You can sprint for about 15 seconds, during which move some 75 meters, this is 5m/s or 18kph. Considering Olympic sprinters can reach speeds of around 40kph, a ~20kph sprint in not to unreasonable. The duration is probably a bit on the upper end of what should be doable but not unduly so. These should be reasonably fit people who are used to marching 20, 30 or even up to 50 kilometers a day.

But the real problem which make it hard to hit running target is strafeing.
You are able to strafe left and right while sprinting, which is totally
unpossible.
You can try it right now. And if somebody is able to post a
video where he is sprinting full speed and is able to strafe without losing
balance, i promise to make custom maps for you 24/7 rest of my life.
So strafe keys should be disabled while sprinting, and used for glance
to left and right.
This is probly the most unrealistic aspect, though one should be able to sprint at an angle that is not quite the direction one is facing, but one should not be able to turn more than say 5-10 degrees while sprinting with some noticeable reduction in your sprinting ability. Though I do believe one should be able to sprint up a single flight of stairs (perhaps not at the same speed but one should be able to do so quickly), though being able to turn 180 degrees and continue "sprinting" would most defiantly be problematic...

From hip to shoulder
Some say that this also happens too fast. Again not true. You can do it really
fast, once again test by yourself. What should take longer is that weapon
aligns perfectly
. So weapon should pop up from hip to shoulder as fast
it does now and be ready for shooting. But it should take longer that its
perfectly aligned for 100 meter shot. Because that needs some focusing
compared to getting weapon from hip to shoulder which is carry out by
trained reflex.
Bringing a weapon from the hip to the shoulder should be fairly quick, but alining the sights should take a bit longer.

Reloading
Well there is nothing wrong in realoading, dont change anything on it.
On Ro1 it was absolutly too slow. Like friend of mine said about RO1
who was in army while i use to play RO1 "If i would realod that slow
Sergant would make me practice it as long as it takes that i realod
twice faster".
I agree, though their is perhaps some room for slightly longer reload times, for green troops...

Sway
I totally agree ingreaseing sway, at least when you stand up with weapon on your shoulder.
This would be a good improvement, though their is some sway already it's effects is not red ably noticeable. Though perhaps it's effects would be more noticeable with maps with longer ranges...

MG-hip fireing
That have been said really unrealistic after that one player posted video
where he is storming whole building with MG. But that player is clearly
really skilled and normal player cant use MG that effectively. And some
players say that hip fireing is unpossible at all. I have seen many
videos ww2 and nowadays, where mg is shooted from hip. Even some
ww2 footage where german mg soldier runs'n'guns, how ever i cant tell
did he manage to hit anything. But im sure it can be used for room
clearing. And after we get maps with open terrain hip fireing mg doesnt
work anymore
. However biggest problem on mg is that recoil which you
get while shooting from bipod. No it doesnt climb up, but instead push
shooter down
, which is weird and makes proper useing really hard, which
make most of the mgers to use it as a run'n'gun weapon.
I have not to much of an opinion as I have not used the MG all that often. Though this is not a light weapon, so perhaps sway while hipping should be noticeable and quick...

Mkb42
Should be moved to elite rifleman, or which ever role got least slots.
Those who maxed assault role up because of Mkb42 get mad. Rest of
players will get happy.
While I would agree that for maps set during Stalingrad should at lest have a single example per map with perhaps not all maps having it (this is some thing that RO1 had that RO2 dose not seem to have, in RO1 not all weapons where present on all maps, in RO2 the MkB is present on most maps). I personally see no real issue of it being present in game (which many have objected to, even though it was in production at the time of the battle, the issue of if it saw combat at that time is debatable...), after all they may expand the game latter on to include a larger time frame... For example it would fit quite well for maps set during Kursk. After all the mappers are not limited to making maps only set during a ~9 month time frame.
 
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Did anyone here play Nuclear Dawn over the free weekend on Steam? The momentum of movement in that game feels amazing, you stop fast but not instantly, basically you take a hard step down and stop, you don't just suddenly stop moving your legs like in RO2. (and the majority of other games)

Note that strafe sprinting does not mean what you think it means, the "strafe" in the name comes from the fact that the same key used to strafe is also used to run at an angle. What you're actually doing (and I think the world model animations support this) is running diagonally to the way your head is facing.

Other than that I totally agree with OP. Great post.
 
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