Firefights / Sway? (questions)
- Thread starter Nimsky
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Think about it, There are hundeds of bullets getting thrown at you very fast, and it only takes one to kill you. Would YOU **** your pants? 
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k98Lemur said:
If it is a weapon you can hipshoot from real life it should be allowed in game.
Doesn't mean you will be able to hit anything accuratley though.
But both the PPSH and the MP41 type of guns could be effective hipping if someone is 1 meter or less in front of you. Beyond that it shouldn't be the method of choice.
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Fear of death is involuntary. Yes, you can reduce fear, but you cannot eliminate it during the situation. However, I think physical suppression is better than mental suppression because it will work where you are actually aware of bullets flying e.g squinting when looking at the direction of the debris flying from cover.PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN said:
Hipshooting is realistic! WWII and even modern troops use(d) hipshooting even on the move(although shoulder-unaimed is also used for modern troops). If you are complaining about getting killed by hipshots at a long range, then you are misinterpreting the distances in RO. The distance of the Spartakovka alley is 30m and only halfway in the alley have I ever seen anyone hipshooting. I do think the vectorized aiming radius/zone should be bigger when moving though, as it is more realistic. The ramboes you usually encounter are in CQC and those who try to rambo out in the opens usually get shot by those in cover anyways.k98Lemur said:
Running out of breath is physical, whereas suppression stated in this topic is mental.DrGuppy said:So by that logic you should have unlimited stamina because you shouldn't have the game telling you when you're tired? I'm sorry but in real life people do not stick their heads out under heavy fire and calmly shoot other people with great accuracy. I've been firing an MG into a window too many times and there's always people who will stick their heads out and pick me off, because there is no penalty to their aim when bullets are whizzing past their head.
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RedStorm said:
Again, got anything to back it up?RedStorm said:
Seriously, if you want to play a game where your every reaction is dictated to you by the game, go play Brothers in Arms or something.
I'm probably quoting 2ltben's old sig when I say this: RO is not Brothers In Arms: Road To Hill 30.
And as the Ace of the spades said: It's mental.
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Troels said:
Dude, saying a soldier's mental state has NOTHING to do with how he fights is just silly. His mental state is probably more important than his physical state. NO ONE in his right mind would pop up when an MG is firing right at the little crate he's hiding behind.
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Agreed, however, that does not mean that he does not have the free will to do so. It should be the player's mental decision whether or not to stand up in that situation, just like it would be the soldiers decision.RedStorm said:
Making it as unprofitable to stand up in RO as it is in real life is going to be a very tricky thing for the devs to achieve without destroying their "simplistic realism."
Ultimately we may have to rely on the good will (and proper fear) of the players in RO not to be stupid and stand up to pop of a luck shot which will succede once in a hundred times.
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I still like the idea of "settle time" when you switch positions while keeping IS up.
For instance, when you stand from crouched (behind cover), there should be some settling time. This would discourage pop-up riflemen, and be realistic. You can't expect to go from crouching to standing and instantly have a steady rifle. Settling time would also be dependent on gun weight.
As an addition or alternative, I suggested having the aim shifted somewhat downward or even a little upward or randomly when one goes from crouch to stand.
Right now, you can be behind cover, stand then start taking aim, but go back to crouch before cover. Then you can pop up, and your rifle will be pointed at the exact same point as before. This gives you an easier time to adjust aim, as you can do it incrementally. This is unrealistic. If you stand up keeping your rifle IS up, you will not be aimed at the exact same spot, unless you are a robot.
For instance, when you stand from crouched (behind cover), there should be some settling time. This would discourage pop-up riflemen, and be realistic. You can't expect to go from crouching to standing and instantly have a steady rifle. Settling time would also be dependent on gun weight.
As an addition or alternative, I suggested having the aim shifted somewhat downward or even a little upward or randomly when one goes from crouch to stand.
Right now, you can be behind cover, stand then start taking aim, but go back to crouch before cover. Then you can pop up, and your rifle will be pointed at the exact same point as before. This gives you an easier time to adjust aim, as you can do it incrementally. This is unrealistic. If you stand up keeping your rifle IS up, you will not be aimed at the exact same spot, unless you are a robot.
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Poping up with a rifle is allready hard enough I dont think your method would stop it realisticly enough.
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![[TW]Wilsonam](/data/avatars/s/0/10.jpg?1568638684){kind=avatar}
Well, if people pop up at me (I like playing machine-gunner) and only hit me 1 in a 100 times - then I'll be a happy MG-Bunny, cos I'll kill them the other 99 times. Well, unless they are smart enough to catch me reloading or relocating, obviously...Hyperion2010 said:
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[RO]Wilsonam said:
people play that bad nowadays?
people will use anything that is possible. Though i never experienced a pop up "luck shot"
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worluk said:people play that bad nowadays?
people will use anything that is possible. Though i never experienced a pop up "luck shot"
Luck as in getting to fire at the MGer before getting mowed dow. It honestly isnt that big a problem if they want to stand up and get killed, they just hurt their team. If they do hit the MGer well, good for them.
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THG repo said:
Personally, I use this all the time to take out MGers I should be scared of IRL...
But can we agree that's it's unrealistic to go from standing to crouch back to standing and have the rifle pointed at the EXACT same spot (while standing)?
Since it's more realistic to have some type of shift, I don't see why it shouldn't be in the game eventually.
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On pop-up shooting:
Anyone with low ping can pop-up shoot an MG with higher ping any time they like. By the time the MG sees them pop up, they've already registered a shot on the server and the MG will be dead. Even if he fires the instant he sees them move (and it is an instant in RO at the moment, they go from completely crouched to stood up in a single frame) his shots will never register on the server before it records him as dead.
You can offset this by firing random bursts but the rifleman knows you can't put down more than a few rounds at a time without going off target. The practiced, low-ping rifleman therefore has a much better than even chance of plugging a high-ping MG without being hit.
On suppression and point-of-aim disturbance:
The kind of point-of-aim disturbance we're talking about is mostly due to adrenalin (causes elevated heart rate and muscle tension, ultimately blurred vision, tunnel vision, loss of hearing, loss of coordination, loss of ability to make smooth movements). The release of adrenalin is not consciously controllable, so while a soldier may well be able to force himself to stand despite effective MG fire, he will not be able to sufficiently control his muscles to aim undisturbed. He might just jag one, but it would be luck - not skill.
There may be a combat-experience effect on adrenalin release - would welcome further input on how this occurs and what its effect would be.
Regards
33
Anyone with low ping can pop-up shoot an MG with higher ping any time they like. By the time the MG sees them pop up, they've already registered a shot on the server and the MG will be dead. Even if he fires the instant he sees them move (and it is an instant in RO at the moment, they go from completely crouched to stood up in a single frame) his shots will never register on the server before it records him as dead.
You can offset this by firing random bursts but the rifleman knows you can't put down more than a few rounds at a time without going off target. The practiced, low-ping rifleman therefore has a much better than even chance of plugging a high-ping MG without being hit.
On suppression and point-of-aim disturbance:
The kind of point-of-aim disturbance we're talking about is mostly due to adrenalin (causes elevated heart rate and muscle tension, ultimately blurred vision, tunnel vision, loss of hearing, loss of coordination, loss of ability to make smooth movements). The release of adrenalin is not consciously controllable, so while a soldier may well be able to force himself to stand despite effective MG fire, he will not be able to sufficiently control his muscles to aim undisturbed. He might just jag one, but it would be luck - not skill.
There may be a combat-experience effect on adrenalin release - would welcome further input on how this occurs and what its effect would be.
Regards
33
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Golf33 raises some excellent points, namely that combat "stress" needs to be looked at from an entire phsyiological perspective.
So many people just seem to think that it is all "in the mind." It is true that fear and the guts needed to go "over the top" or "hold the line" are largely psychological, but there are *bodily* reactions to life-death situations.
Adrenalin is just one of them. You also have *involuntary* reactions to stimuli, like blinking, flinching, ducking, and reaction time.
In other words, even if you have no fear of death, and are completely estatic about jumping up in the middle of an MG's fire, you are *NOT* going to be able to aim as perfectly as you can in RO curently.
Even without fear, and with complete commitment, you would have (irl), dirt and dust flying up from the MG bullets, causing you to blink, and/or flinch, your reaction time (which is biological) which determines how quickly your brain can take in the positon of the MG and then aim at it, other distractions going off all around you, and the adrenalin that Golf brought up (rapid breathing, hand trembling, etc.). All of these things, and more, would throw your aim off of what you would have shooting at a target range. In RO however, your am is exactly the same regardless.
So many people just seem to think that it is all "in the mind." It is true that fear and the guts needed to go "over the top" or "hold the line" are largely psychological, but there are *bodily* reactions to life-death situations.
Adrenalin is just one of them. You also have *involuntary* reactions to stimuli, like blinking, flinching, ducking, and reaction time.
In other words, even if you have no fear of death, and are completely estatic about jumping up in the middle of an MG's fire, you are *NOT* going to be able to aim as perfectly as you can in RO curently.
Even without fear, and with complete commitment, you would have (irl), dirt and dust flying up from the MG bullets, causing you to blink, and/or flinch, your reaction time (which is biological) which determines how quickly your brain can take in the positon of the MG and then aim at it, other distractions going off all around you, and the adrenalin that Golf brought up (rapid breathing, hand trembling, etc.). All of these things, and more, would throw your aim off of what you would have shooting at a target range. In RO however, your am is exactly the same regardless.
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One issue about adrenaline is, although it's involuntary, you can acclimate to a situation to the point where you don't have a huge adrenaline dump.
For example, anyone who does martial arts where they spar know that when you first start sparring, you have a huge adrenaline dump. But as you gain more experience you are calmer and don't have the adrenaline pumping.
This can be good and bad. Under adrenaline, you're faster and stronger, but more tense, and you loose fine muscle control (handy for aiming a rifle).
Anyways, I've suggested this as an idea to handle the fact that not all soldiers reacted the same way, but doubt it would fly.
If increased sway or that type of supression effect is implemented, you could have a subset of the soldiers be "green" - in other words, supression would effect them more because they have less experience.
So you'd have "experienced" riflemen and "green" riflemen, and the ratio could depend on the historical setting of the map. I would expect NCO to have few if any greens.
For example, anyone who does martial arts where they spar know that when you first start sparring, you have a huge adrenaline dump. But as you gain more experience you are calmer and don't have the adrenaline pumping.
This can be good and bad. Under adrenaline, you're faster and stronger, but more tense, and you loose fine muscle control (handy for aiming a rifle).
Anyways, I've suggested this as an idea to handle the fact that not all soldiers reacted the same way, but doubt it would fly.
If increased sway or that type of supression effect is implemented, you could have a subset of the soldiers be "green" - in other words, supression would effect them more because they have less experience.
So you'd have "experienced" riflemen and "green" riflemen, and the ratio could depend on the historical setting of the map. I would expect NCO to have few if any greens.
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So, now that we know a lot more about Ostfront...
Is this going to be in the game? Will firefights finally last realistically long? Will players have to fight for every square meter of ground, and will fire superiority, supressive fire, squad- and flanking manouvres finally play a bigger role? Will battles become more intense as a result of this?
Devs? Pretty pleeaase?
Is this going to be in the game? Will firefights finally last realistically long? Will players have to fight for every square meter of ground, and will fire superiority, supressive fire, squad- and flanking manouvres finally play a bigger role? Will battles become more intense as a result of this?
Devs? Pretty pleeaase?
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Well i personally feel there should be a small penalty to Weapon Sway when going from Prone/Crouced to Crouched/Standing. Currently one can go into Ironsights while crouched and go to Standing without loosing accuracy, which results in a lot of Pop Up Shootouts behind sandbags etc.
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