This thread is insane, some crazy ideas, theories, and insight into what is going to happen in KF2. All I can do is sit here and read. 
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Always hits in the middle of the screen
- Thread starter VatelFak
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Damn them NDA's.this thread is insane, some crazy ideas, theories, and insight into what is going to happen in kf2. All i can do is sit here and read.
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Exactly the ****ing problem. we have a game with a very simple theme and people want to ****ing ruin it to make it more fun. the game is the game. Games have rules to make it a game, it creates the game, without structure there is no game there is no objective. It's a wave based objective game focused around survival. Difficulty should be prioritized. Realism with even more difficult shooting is okay because thats the gist of the game. It's not garrys mod where we have grim reapers, chicken suits, killing zombies, lasers, what the **** ever the ****ing community wants. Ive spent ****ing ****loads of hours on garrys mod only multiple modes i know what the **** i meant.
APB became microtransacation after it failed miserably. (This mostly due to server issues, with your limited research you wouldnt know this.)
All Points Bulletin offered almost limitless customization to players, you ran around and shot each other in PVP matches centered around specific goals in mind. The amount of money spent into a submersive game with **** loads of "fun" elements not being noticed by you, and many others, is just amazing, and shows how fun is not what makes the game. They spent **** loads of money for complex servers (failed miserably) **** loads of customization, beautiful level design, and etc. millions of dollars in fact if im correct. Why wasn't it enough?
"A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome." is my favorite definition for a game, not fun, just objectives that must be accomplished.
Wave based game - you kill everything, and then boss and you win. The twist however is the guns and the mechanics behind them, why make that "fun" the "fun" is the simple reward of accomplishing the wave. We live vicariously through the game in what should be a gun enthusiasts wet dream.
tl;dr
**** fun, by the way im not trying to come off as a dick.
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I must be one of the few peeps that ads when doing an m14ebr takedown of a HoE FP. wont effect me any
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Wow, Skell, an elitist attitude AND admitting to stalking me outside the forum?
I've already stated in several threads that the reason I don't play above Hard is because the game gets TOO EASY above hard.
Yeah, you ****ing heard me. "Sit in this corner with the rest of us where no zeds can possibly ever reach you. No, that's okay, three of us are holding the door just fine. The rest of you can grab a snack or something" Oh wow such a challenge.
If you think idling in a safe little closet for a thousand hours makes you better or more knowledgeable than me, you can just take a hike. While you were wasting your time not-playing one game, I was putting a hundred hours each into ten other games, studying what makes "good gameplay".
And guess what? "Good gameplay" is NOT always the opposite of "realism", especially not when you can't come up with a single VALID reason to reject realism beyond giving screen-dotters and aim-botters an edge.
"Good gameplay" is encouraging players to balance the use of both Point-Shooting and 'ADS' and accept that either comes with advantages and disadvantages. A "skilled and experienced player" would have the situational awareness to know when it's safe to take aim at a farther target and when they need to keep their peripheral vision open
And now that it's been established that the most skilled legit KF1 players around DO balance point-shooting and scope-shooting, and DO know when to do one and when to do the other, what's YOUR excuse for wanting to keep an exploitable, broken game mechanic?
I've already stated in several threads that the reason I don't play above Hard is because the game gets TOO EASY above hard.
Yeah, you ****ing heard me. "Sit in this corner with the rest of us where no zeds can possibly ever reach you. No, that's okay, three of us are holding the door just fine. The rest of you can grab a snack or something" Oh wow such a challenge.
If you think idling in a safe little closet for a thousand hours makes you better or more knowledgeable than me, you can just take a hike. While you were wasting your time not-playing one game, I was putting a hundred hours each into ten other games, studying what makes "good gameplay".
And guess what? "Good gameplay" is NOT always the opposite of "realism", especially not when you can't come up with a single VALID reason to reject realism beyond giving screen-dotters and aim-botters an edge.
"Good gameplay" is encouraging players to balance the use of both Point-Shooting and 'ADS' and accept that either comes with advantages and disadvantages. A "skilled and experienced player" would have the situational awareness to know when it's safe to take aim at a farther target and when they need to keep their peripheral vision open
And now that it's been established that the most skilled legit KF1 players around DO balance point-shooting and scope-shooting, and DO know when to do one and when to do the other, what's YOUR excuse for wanting to keep an exploitable, broken game mechanic?
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PFFFFFFFFFFFFT.
I'm not the one acting like point aiming is super easy. I wish I went and looked for it myself, I'd have dismissed all your points sooner.
HAHAHAHA this is gold
Sounds like you got carried, m8. Maybe you should try a lil harder.
The rest of your post... come on man...
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@Crashfu
Your post was utterly insulting but I'll bite my tongue on that, given that a mod straight up poked their head in. So let's focus on the concrete points you have presented.
Actually, I'm disregarding most of the remaining post regarding aim bot deterrence and "exploits" cause the latter has been replied to already, and the claim that the only valid reason to reject realism that has presented to you is to reward cheaters is blatantly not true. I don't believe anyone has sad, and if they have, it's irrelevant either way IMO.
Then don't play like that if you don't find it fun. Your reasoning makes no sense. You don't like camping, but this only becomes a criticism above hard difficulty? And camping is more challenging on hard and below? What?
Your post was utterly insulting but I'll bite my tongue on that, given that a mod straight up poked their head in. So let's focus on the concrete points you have presented.
Actually, I'm disregarding most of the remaining post regarding aim bot deterrence and "exploits" cause the latter has been replied to already, and the claim that the only valid reason to reject realism that has presented to you is to reward cheaters is blatantly not true. I don't believe anyone has sad, and if they have, it's irrelevant either way IMO.
Then don't play like that if you don't find it fun. Your reasoning makes no sense. You don't like camping, but this only becomes a criticism above hard difficulty? And camping is more challenging on hard and below? What?
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If ADS is just a way of aiming with a reticle at the cost of speed, then there's no point in Tripwire wasting their time with it in since it's just meant to be training wheels. That's not going to be the case, as it shouldn't. It's not even an obvious example of
Killing Floor as it currently is already has mechanics in place to promote both in certain situations.
There is satisfaction with landing hip fired headshots. No one's going to deny that, but hip firing adds a lot of mobility that ADS doesn't, and not taking that into account when balancing the game can lead to zed mobility not factoring that in. To take reliable hip firing away takes a lot of fun and reward out of the game.
However, there's ALSO satisfaction with quickly aiming and hitting an enemy's weak spot (RE4 and RE5 are prime examples of this), and ADS also can be a good way to balance a weapon, particularly heavier ones. The crossbow and A99 are good examples of this, which are, unsurprisingly, some of the primary boss killing weapons. If Killing Floor 2 is designed to have certain classes and load outs that are better for trash killing or boss clearing, then weapons that force ADS require time to set up. This forces the trash clearing classes to protect the boss killers while they take care of the threat.
One of the biggest problems that KF1 faces right now is that bosses are now a joke. The boss killers can defend themselves from trash just fine while being able to mow down everything else that comes at them. If boss killers are forced to use heavier weapons to have any chance of the group killing bosses, then they are forced to use ADS, make themselves more vulnerable, take away room from good trash killer weapons, and force the trash killer classes to protect them. If boss killers can run and gun with hip fire effectively, then they don't have to make themselves vulnerable or run away from crowds.
Trash killers are probably going to focus on lighter, good hip fire weapons, and boss killers are probably going to primarily be using heavier weapons that don't work unless the user is standing still for a bit. Weapon weight and perk benefits are probably going to determine how accurate a weapon is when moving. I'm guessing that the sharp's bonus when standing still means that this is the way that the game is being designed, and thank **** for that.
I know what he's saying sounds insane, but the game is usually more difficult on hard and below because not everyone's using the meta. Getting half of the team doing what is guaranteed to win means that a loss isn't going to happen. On survival and HOE, everyone knows exactly what the best classes and camping spots are.
Killing Floor as it currently is already has mechanics in place to promote both in certain situations.
There is satisfaction with landing hip fired headshots. No one's going to deny that, but hip firing adds a lot of mobility that ADS doesn't, and not taking that into account when balancing the game can lead to zed mobility not factoring that in. To take reliable hip firing away takes a lot of fun and reward out of the game.
However, there's ALSO satisfaction with quickly aiming and hitting an enemy's weak spot (RE4 and RE5 are prime examples of this), and ADS also can be a good way to balance a weapon, particularly heavier ones. The crossbow and A99 are good examples of this, which are, unsurprisingly, some of the primary boss killing weapons. If Killing Floor 2 is designed to have certain classes and load outs that are better for trash killing or boss clearing, then weapons that force ADS require time to set up. This forces the trash clearing classes to protect the boss killers while they take care of the threat.
One of the biggest problems that KF1 faces right now is that bosses are now a joke. The boss killers can defend themselves from trash just fine while being able to mow down everything else that comes at them. If boss killers are forced to use heavier weapons to have any chance of the group killing bosses, then they are forced to use ADS, make themselves more vulnerable, take away room from good trash killer weapons, and force the trash killer classes to protect them. If boss killers can run and gun with hip fire effectively, then they don't have to make themselves vulnerable or run away from crowds.
Trash killers are probably going to focus on lighter, good hip fire weapons, and boss killers are probably going to primarily be using heavier weapons that don't work unless the user is standing still for a bit. Weapon weight and perk benefits are probably going to determine how accurate a weapon is when moving. I'm guessing that the sharp's bonus when standing still means that this is the way that the game is being designed, and thank **** for that.
I know what he's saying sounds insane, but the game is usually more difficult on hard and below because not everyone's using the meta. Getting half of the team doing what is guaranteed to win means that a loss isn't going to happen. On survival and HOE, everyone knows exactly what the best classes and camping spots are.
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You should spec some pubs servers. Anything is a "joke" if you're good enough in a PvE game though. Even good teams wipe in HoE. KF can throw rude spawns at you.
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I already agree with this assessment. Thanks for sharing that. I will just have to believe that that is what he means...that he intentionally plays on lower difficulties to play with ****ty teammates lol.
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Now you guys are understanding where I'm coming form.
Around Hard difficulty, you've still got a mix of good and bad players. You've got people getting cocky, who are willing to take risks to get a slice of action and excitement or just so the waves clear faster. You have more instances where people are getting in over their heads and need to be bailed out of trouble.
And it's all very exciting and fun.
On the highest difficulties, Killing Floor often stops being a game and starts being a procedure. Everyone knows exactly what the best strategy is, they know which classes they need, they know what they have to do, they know where they need to camp, they know which Zeds they should and should not engage, and they're so accustomed to the Zeds' behaviors that they aren't even scary monsters any more... they're just walking clumps of HP with a target on the neck, following predictably calculated paths up to the doorway the team is camping.
When you know how everything works, when you do everything completely by the book, when the game and your teammates cease to surprise you in any way... what's the fun of it?
I'd rather be launching a grenade at a group of clots in the process of eating a teammate who got cornered and then leaping in to syringe him before the gorefast that just rounded the corner can charge in and finish off his last few points of health, or wandering around a corner to look for spare guns to sell in the next round and winding up in a life-or-death chase with a fleshpound I'm not equipped to fight, than..... sitting, watching a doorway, and clicking when I see my designated target.
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Now you guys are understanding where I'm coming form.
Around Hard difficulty, you've still got a mix of good and bad players. You've got people getting cocky, who are willing to take risks to get a slice of action and excitement or just so the waves clear faster. You have more instances where people are getting in over their heads and need to be bailed out of trouble.
And it's all very exciting and fun.
On the highest difficulties, Killing Floor often stops being a game and starts being a procedure. Everyone knows exactly what the best strategy is, they know which classes they need, they know what they have to do, they know where they need to camp, they know which Zeds they should and should not engage, and they're so accustomed to the Zeds' behaviors that they aren't even scary monsters any more... they're just walking clumps of HP with a target on the neck, following predictably calculated paths up to the doorway the team is camping.
When you know how everything works, when you do everything completely by the book, when the game and your teammates cease to surprise you in any way... what's the fun of it?
I'd rather be launching a grenade at a group of clots in the process of eating a teammate who got cornered and then leaping in to syringe him before the gorefast that just rounded the corner can charge in and finish off his last few points of health, or wandering around a corner to look for spare guns to sell in the next round and winding up in a life-or-death chase with a fleshpound I'm not equipped to fight, than..... sitting, watching a doorway, and clicking when I see my designated target.
Nothing wrong with playing and enjoying hard difficulty, but all those things you said happen on HoE as well! Just with the added danger. If every game was a procedure, I agree that'd get boring pretty quick. Luckily there's a lot of randomness put into the mix. This game can throw some devastating spawns at you sometimes, even camping a spot more than once can be different than the last time and a whole new set of team mates can change things pretty drastically as well.
You should also consider who writes the 'book' that you're supposedly being bored playing by. It didn't come included in the KF manual, I promise. It's the accumulated knowledge from the [mostly] HoE players who are taking the risks, willing to get in over their heads, trying out camp spots all over every map, spending time trying and discovering combos, learning what works and what doesn't, wiping way more than they survive. As you get better at the game, you can put yourself in increasingly 'dangerous' situations and come out as clean as a whistle. Find some like-minded team mates and you can hold out some freaking suicide zones sometimes. Some of the most fun games I've ever had were holding the entrance to hospital horrors or out front in the parking lot on offices. Really dangerous areas where you need capable team mates because the game will be spewing a diarrhea-like stream of zeds from every direction.
Yes, it gets boring when you only do what other people tell you is safe and don't bother trying anything new yourself. I guess some people like the safe options because they'd prefer a win or an achievement over a super scary exhilarating wipe. Players like this are the most annoying to play with in my opinion. At their worst they'll demand other players go certain perks, call noob and berate someone who isn't following the 'best strategy'. It gets even more obnoxious when it's a group or someone wearing an admin tag waving their ban-hammer around. But I can happily say not everyone on HoE plays like this and there are lots of players who'd love some ambitious HoE team mates who enjoy challenging themselves!
I can understand what you're saying about hard - since there are a lot of newer players, a lot of tense situations can arise out of ignorance and/or plain ol's hitty aim making it seem more difficult than holding the vanilla one-way camp spot for the map on HoE with 5 aa12's or m1+w-ing around with a whole team of semi-capable zerks. However in my experience, once you get a serious hang of things you will be able to L-O-L your way through hard on any map with any teammates as something ridiculous like a beserker with a machete + LAW and still somehow manage to be bored
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However in my experience, once you get a serious hang of things you will be able to L-O-L your way through hard on any map with any teammates as something ridiculous like a beserker with a machete + LAW and still somehow manage to be bored
Yep. Like I said in another thread Crashfu; don't let one game/group of baddies determine how you see HoE. Any game is boring if you sit back and do nothing; and the 1 doorway camp is the worst.
Westlondon can be pretty fun, camping the top tunnel, or outside, in the alley, or even in the basement/dark trader. Give that a shot. Or maybe Waterworks, outside, or at spawn. Or even the standard holding spot on Bedlam. That always gets hectic. The point is, the game will always be boring if you do the boring, safest holds, and let 1-2 people do all the work. Find a group of friends, and try HoE with them. You'll see it in a different light.
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Well Karsey, Capt, I like the way you guys think (especially that bit about the rocket-launcher machete berzerker, hmmmmmm )
Maybe I AM generalizing HoE players too much. After all, occasionally people play too risk-aversely on Hard, too. (especially on that Doom map. Oh god I hate that map and it's one impenetrable fortress room)
Part of me wants to give HoE another try and hope for a more interesting team, but unfortunately the other part is pretty much just burnt out on KF1 as a whole, y'know? It happens with even the best games, when you've put a lot of hours in and have a lot of other things to play until KF2 is out.
)Maybe I AM generalizing HoE players too much. After all, occasionally people play too risk-aversely on Hard, too. (especially on that Doom map. Oh god I hate that map and it's one impenetrable fortress room)
Part of me wants to give HoE another try and hope for a more interesting team, but unfortunately the other part is pretty much just burnt out on KF1 as a whole, y'know? It happens with even the best games, when you've put a lot of hours in and have a lot of other things to play until KF2 is out.
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It is understandable. Some times I start up KF, only to quit 10 minutes later wondering why I started it to begin with. Other times, the hours can just fly by. Anyway, if you ever want to give HoE another shot, hit me up. I'm a horrible, wipe inducing scrub, but I'll do my best not to get us all killed if you give me shot.
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