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Always hits in the middle of the screen

Do you prefer hipfire to be inaccurate, unpredictable and unreliable? If so, why? For realism? Do you think it makes the game more challenging? I'm genuinely curious.

No.

Read my post:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1316293&postcount=15

You can still "git gud" with a realistic system, there is nothing random about it, it is just harder to master than the current system. When (IF) you do master, you will be rubbing your e-penis harder than ever before.
 
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there is nothing random about it
I was listening to the first video and all it made me notice is that your statement isn't correct.

I love jump and shooting stuff. From the way that guy was describing it... only one gun has this feature (since the only other gun he said had this ability sucked) and it only works when crouched. That just sounds like less fun.

Hopefully they don't ruin this game because some people want their game about shooting zombies to have REELIZM...
 
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I was listening to the first video and all it made me notice is that your statement isn't correct.

I love jump and shooting stuff. From the way that guy was describing it... only one gun has this feature (since the only other gun he said had this ability sucked) and it only works when crouched. That just sounds like less fun.

Different guns handle differently, and some are harder to use than others. I don't see how that is less fun. Do you want all guns to be the same?
 
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If they go with freeaim, the sharpie dot on the middle of my monitor is going to look awfully silly.
cheating is for scrubs

sounds like a case of needing to git gud m8

Different guns handle differently, and some are harder to use than others. I don't see how that is less fun. Do you want all guns to be the same?
This. This just made my day. Look at this implication you just write off as if it were true. You actually have the audacity to imply that, if a weapon's spread is the same as another weapon's, they are all the same.

This is a joke, right?

Lets get some facts real quick.

M32Fire - Spread=0.015000 (M32 Multiple Grenade Launcher)
Mac10Fire - Spread=0.013 (Mac 10)
ThompsonFire - Spread=0.012000 (Mag Thompson)
SPGrenadeLauncher - Spread=0.015 (Orca Bomber)

Because these guns have similar spreads, their handling is the same too? No, obviously not.

All weapons in Killing Floor have high accuracy (not including weapons that are supposed to have wide bursts). And ya know what? They all have very different means of handling them. ISN'T THAT JUST CRAAAAAAAZY?

Why would I want most of my guns to shoot, predominantly, in whichever way a RNG chooses in a fast-paced, PvE game? Please let my shots go where I shoot them, not where the game randomly chooses. I want it to be my fault I missed, not the game's fault.
 
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Why would I want most of my guns to shoot, predominantly, in whichever way a RNG chooses in a fast-paced, PvE game? Please let my shots go where I shoot them, not where the game randomly chooses. I want it to be my fault I missed, not the game's fault.

That is exactly how it works in RO2, but every weapon has a realistic modeled recoil. The bullets will always go where the gun is pointing at, there is no RNG involved, you just have it harder to make it so your gun doesn't sway as much depending on the propieties of each gun. There is no such thing as "spread" there, not that you will notice under 150m anyway.

Go play RO2 a little bit and then come back.
 
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That is exactly how it works in RO2, but every weapon has a realistic modeled recoil. The bullets will always go where the gun is pointing at, there is no RNG involved, you just have it harder to make it so your gun doesn't sway as much depending on the propieties of each gun. There is no such thing as "spread" there, not that you will notice under 150m anyway.

Go play RO2 a little bit and then come back.


Just to note, SMG's and pistols do have a (noticeable) spread in RO2.
 
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That is exactly how it works in RO2, but every weapon has a realistic modeled recoil. The bullets will always go where the gun is pointing at, there is no RNG involved, you just have it harder to make it so your gun doesn't sway as much depending on the propieties of each gun. There is no such thing as "spread" there, not that you will notice under 150m anyway.

Go play RO2 a little bit and then come back.
N1 ignoring my rebuttal to your point about spread.

I was about to say "okay, look forward to it" until...
Just to note, SMG's and pistols do have a (noticeable) spread in RO2.
... this is pointed out.

Which means this...
There is no such thing as "spread" there
... is an outright lie.

If it only applies to a specific type of weapon then, by logic, it does not apply to all types of weapons. So I'm back to hoping KF2 doesn't take RO2's (which I have played) shooting mechanics and, if they do, at least make it good for a PvE game.
Also the arm movements of the guns in RO2 look super awkward as they stiffly bounce around the screen... yuck.
 
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It isn't randomized in RO2, the bullet just goes wherever your gun is pointing, which is rarely at the center of the screen because of free-aim.

IT is random, and if it isnt, it very well seems like it.

Walk up to a tree about 1 to 2 mtrs away, while in hip firing mode shoot it and dont move the mouse.

The Bullet hole decal will appear.

Shoot again while it is there, and you will see another decal about 100mm (in game scale) away from it.

At distance this 100mm turns into mtrs.

Do it in Iron sights and you will get it bang on the decal each time. (minus recoil, it will go up.)

On hip firing it will go down, sideways, up, angled, if it was recoil only it would be directly above.

Im not against it in RO2, i think it is needed, since RO2 i have noticed alot less hip firing ocuring, it is just too difficult. Which is good, because it is becomes a bit too COD. In Orignal RO it used to happen alot more.

Not sure about it in KF2, I think it should remain the same and from reading the article about the game it sounds like we are going to get the RO2 mechanic for the Guns in terms of that the bullet hits where it is pointed, but your aiming will be effected by recoil, rather than it is now with each thrid bullet straying as a figure of your skill through perks.

So hopefully they keep it the same middle of the screen and increase the recoil in hip firing mode. (in iron sights you can compensate for the recoil, in hip firing you can not, hence making it more difficult, yet if you keep the aim to the middle of the screen people can atleast still predict.)
But that the randomized bullets in RO2 hip fire get thrown out for KF2.
 
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N1 ignoring my rebuttal to your point about spread.

I was about to say "okay, look forward to it" until...

... this is pointed out.

Which means this...
... is an outright lie.


So yes, you ignored the part where I said "There is no such thing as "spread" there, not that you will notice under 150m anyway"

Apparently, I'm the guy who is lying, maybe you should play the game yourself instead.
 
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@Don Draper
That's just because the guns move when you fire them and they don't move back to where they were automaticly; and unlike most games they don't just move straight up, not sure if it's realistic or not but you can see that when you fire your gun will jerk in a direction, it may seem random because it is very hard to tell exactly where your gun is pointing just by looking at it.
@Skell
Yes, the guns in RO2 have spread, because real guns have spread; the issue here isn't the accuracy of the guns themselves but the direction they fire, in RO2, the direction your gun is pointing is not randomized but moved to a point by the player. In KF2, from what I've heard, the guns will be perfectly accurate, so it will be like Red Orchestra minus the inaccuracy of the actual guns.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfo_eS8wfoU&index=4&list=PL15Dir0HjArKATVhkxIopkTYddQBcj8R-
^Everyone please just watch this. Skip to 6:57 for a good example of the point of aim moving with the gun.
Notice how the gun aims at the center screen by default but is moved around by recoil and the rounds hit in different places as a result.
Since this game mode doesn't have free-aim it's most noticeable on automatic weapons.
 
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So yes, you ignored the part where I said "There is no such thing as "spread" there, not that you will notice under 150m anyway"

Apparently, I'm the guy who is lying, maybe you should play the game yourself instead.
150m is a long distance be to shooting without ADSing and taking time to make a calculated shot... I simply didn't have issue with that.
 
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You don't know that Sharpshooters will be less suited for dealing with numerous threats up close - you only know that they will now get a bonus for standing still and are making an assumption with the rest. This does not imply a penalty for moving or rule out the possibility of getting different bonuses for still using pistols or any non-rifle weapon, or maybe a separate bonus is applied while they are moving. You do not have all the information. No one does yet.

Handgun specialty was made a new perk now. Handgun bonuses were how Sharpshooters dealt with multiple weak threats effectively in KF1. Sharpshooter does not still get those bonuses, because that would completely defeat the entire point of the perk getting split in two, which was to fix the problem of Sharpshooter being good against EVERYTHING in KF1. Thus, in KF2 if you want to kill lots of weak enemies, you're either going to have to waste your limited supply of SS weapon ammo on trash enemies, or swap to the sidearm you aren't proficient in.... and either way is inefficient in terms of time (because SS weapons tend to have either slow fire rates or reload speed or both, and killing things with a sidearm you don't get bonuses to is just slow for anyone)


See enemy--> Aim Down Sight--> Line up Crosshair--> Pull Trigger

(snip)

but when you can rely on accurate hipfire, the process becomes this:

See Enemy --> Aim --> Pull Trigger

What you mean is the process becomes "See Enemy --> Line up imaginary crosshair --> pull trigger" which beats out aiming properly by the miniscule fraction of a second it takes to transition to the sighted/scoped view.

Only now in KF2, there's an added element... you fire a rifle without shouldering it, IT'S GOING TO RECOIL A LOT. And until your stability recovers, you can't/shouldn't shoot that rifle again because the bullet isn't going to go towards your screen center. While aiming properly, you simply move the crosshair back onto the enemy and fire your next shot. Thus, hipfiring cuts your accurate firing rate significantly, unless you're using a single-shot weapon to begin with.

See? You're at a disadvantage by stubbornly refusing to handle the rifle the way it's meant to be used. And for what? To keep your FoV open for the second it'll take you to actually line up your shot, because you don't trust your teammates to do their jobs?


I will mention it's important to realize that the hipfire mechanic effects every perk and every weapon, not just sharpshooter.
It's going to mean the most for sharpshooter however, because being even ONE degree off due to sway when you fire a shot could mean missing your target entirely. If they're close enough that a few degrees won't stop you from hitting their neck, then either something has gone horribly wrong or you don't know what a sniper is.

Do you prefer hipfire to be inaccurate, unpredictable and unreliable? If so, why? For realism? Do you think it makes the game more challenging? I'm genuinely curious.

Yes and yes. It's one thing to sling a machine gun by your hip and spray bullets like an action-movie hero... but who the **** have you ever seen fire a rifle like that? Ever? It's not just unrealistic, it's not even the cool kind of unrealistic. Like bunny-hopping, ugh. If something A) doesn't make any sense, B) looks stupid, and C) serves no purpose but make the game easier for you and make intentional parts of the game completely obsolete, then you can be sure any competent game developer is going to fix it.

And yes, it also makes the game more challenging if the sniper on your team has to actually focus on the target he's shooting at, accept a brief moment of tunnel-vision, and count on teammates for help.

I think the current kf1 mechanic adds another layer of gun skill to the game - instead of useless hipfire you can learn to use it to your advantage.
What the 'center of the screen' mechanic in KF1 did was attempt realism and result in just another form of learning curve new players had to face. Which was fine, for the ones who weren't put off by the game's challenge and stuck around for it... but the thing is, once you got USED TO it the game became as mindlessly point-and-click as any other FPS. Instead of "not having a crosshair" you just "figure out where the invisible crosshair is". It's a learning curve that sharply plateaus off.
 
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I don't see how not aiming down the sights is unrealistic. When I go hunting with friends, and the Goat/Roo/Rabbit is within 15 or so meters, you can generally drop them without needing to look down the sights. Now compare this to ingame. Most things that you are killing are well within this range. If you can't shoot that in real life without taking the extra time to look down the sights then you might want to get your eyes checked. It's similar to shooting a bow, you know roughly where the bullet/arrow is going to hit within "x" range. So please stop crapping on about it being unrealistic. It's getting old.
Also, Sharps don't need pistols to kill everything; they have M14/Lar too. You going to take them away from Sharp as well because they don't fit into what you think Sharp should be?

@Don: I already explained that the gun moves in RO2 when you shoot it (up and to the right), and doesn't move back until you zero it. Now I'm fine if they are going to introduce this system so long as the gun doesn't permanently move each time you shoot (until you go ADS and reset it).
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting

Well now, I guess I was wrong, and I'll have to admit that. You -can- learn to fire a rifle accurately at relatively close targets without using the sights or scope.

Still, for gameplay reasons I hate to see sights and scopes made completely obsolete, especially on a perk centered around long-range combat and precision; Since this is described as a specific skill that has to be specifically trained, what if "improved unsighted accuracy" for sharpshooters was a skill choice, with the alternative skill being something else that will benefit more traditional snipers?
 
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[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting[/URL]

Well now, I guess I was wrong, and I'll have to admit that. You -can- learn to fire a rifle accurately at relatively close targets without using the sights or scope.

Still, for gameplay reasons I hate to see sights and scopes made completely obsolete, especially on a perk centered around long-range combat and precision; Since this is described as a specific skill that has to be specifically trained, what if "improved unsighted accuracy" for sharpshooters was a skill choice, with the alternative skill being something else that will benefit more traditional snipers?
You keep bringing up gameplay, but did you consider that forced ADS at every point might actually be a bad game mechanic? It slows down gameplay and completely eliminates a major mechanic (movement) from the equation while you are shooting.

Also do you think sharp should be totally useless against anything that's not a FP? Sounds mighty fun just idling at a corner waiting for FPs to spawn. In KF1 you can make yourself useful as a sharp at all times. Perhaps too useful sometimes, but at least killing biggies is not everything you can do.

KF1 actually simulates point shooting pretty well. You can get almost as accurate as ADS at closer ranges when you practice enough, just as it should be. I don't see what's the problem here.
 
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