why even have levelling?

[trigger7]

Having levels is an incentive to keep those who are unable to stay interesting without awards and flashing lights playing. The fact is that leveling harms the gameplay. As soon as you start figuring out exact details like shots to kill each zed with each weapon, suddenly you level up and all those numbers are now different. This is going to happen 25 times, ignoring the balance patches which also force you to dump previously acquired knowledge.

Similarly, having levels means that the difficulty isn't balanced solely with skill in mind. They have to keep in mind potential players' levels too. Normal as a level 0 is normal. Normal as a level 25 is Easy. It's a slider that simply serves to make balance harder to pinpoint. If a level 25 player wanted to hop into normal for a slower-paced gallop for a while, he's going to be so ridiculously out of place, even if he isn't that good, that he'll also be ruining it for everyone like level 0's do in HoE. What's a level 25 to do? Not fire his gun?

Games don't need incentive to keep playing. You know what the incentive is? Fun. It's a trend that has only really started this past decade. Everyone got along fine without it. Another argument is that it forces people to improve before jumping in to harder difficulties and ruining it for everyone else. Well guess what? People still regularly jump into harder difficulties even with levels. That's no argument. It fixes nothing. All it does is keep good players grinding for longer before they can play at the same level as someone who's weapons magically do more damage or who has more health and move speed. Levels feel like a crutch rather than just a cosmetic indication of play time like they should be. Levels shouldn't exist, and certainly not as they currently do. Maybe when all the perks are in and Tripwire starts doing those balance passes they should keep this in mind.

This, this and this.

As I get older, I really, really start getting bored of this leveling and grinding nonsense, in games that don't need it.
After nearly 20 years of playing FPSes, I think I know how to move a mouse around and press keys on a keyboard... Don't come and tell me I need to play lower difficulties again and again because some artificial numbers say I won't do as much damage as the other guy.


And eeeevery time, in eeevery game, someone will argue that they like levels and that they need them to get a feeling of accomplishment and that without them there'd be nothing to do and that you're just a whiny impatient b!tch and that you need to work to make your level number higher, you have to earn it maaaan.

Well, guess what : it's not work, it's a video game ; and if you feel that the game would be meaningless without levels, if once you reach max level with every perk you don't feel like playing again, maybe you don't actually like the game. If you can't enjoy the gameplay for itself, maybe it's not the game for you.

I just fail to see why it's so awful that there is leveling up in the first place. You make it sound like it makes the game not fun. If you're looking at the path to level 25 like it's homework, then you're looking at it the wrong way. Just play in normal and hard servers and have a good time, and when you're strong enough, hop on suicidal and HoE servers.

The exact same argument works the other way around : I fail to see why it'd be so awful to start with all the perks at max. If you're looking at level 25 like it's the end of the game, then you're looking at it the wrong way.


Sorry for the rant (well, not really, I feel better now).
It's not aimed at anyone in particular (and not even at this game in particular...), I just took the opportunity to vent



Anyway, i don't mind *some* leveling in KF2, but at the very least, we should have an XP bonus of some sort depending on our total number of levels across all classes or something.

And, for those who absolutely positively want something else to do in the game, then add some achievements. But not the meaningless milestones we have now, some actual achievements. Ones that require skill to complete.

 

[xmrmeow]

Idk, the game is all around more fun at higher levels and the only thing leveling adds to the game is needless grind.

Some people argue that fast leveling methods fill up higher difficulties with bad players as they have no practice, but the way I see it, nothing but practice on high difficulties like HOE will prepare you for it. No amount of practice on hard will make you better at hoe if you already know the main points in the game. That being said, forcing someone to grind to level a new perk to lv 25 when they already have all their other perks at 25 and play hoe regularly is just making that person do needless grind.

I think in kf2, the only leveling that wouldn't be pointless for players who already know the game/have other perks at lv 25 is changing the system to be one overall level.

This would mean that there is one level that carries over all perks, new and old. So your account has just one level, and once it hits 25, everything new is 25 too. I doubt tripwire is interested in changing the leveling system though, despite all the players that still use leveling maps/other stuff that levels somehow, so listing alternate methods, even if they make sense, is probably just a waste of time...

I still think this is better though; no reason someone who has a ton of experience should need to get every new perk to x level to play harder difficulties instead of just starting out on them. If everything is done right on the company's side, players should be coming back to play with the new content in the game because it is fun, not to level it up and get bored halfway through because low difficulties are easy, but the only viable way of leveling that people don't consider cheating.

 

[Quadruplesword]

The exact same argument works the other way around : I fail to see why it'd be so awful to start with all the perks at max. If you're looking at level 25 like it's the end of the game, then you're looking at it the wrong way.

Fair enough, but the guys here make it sound like getting to level 25 is such a chore. I don't even notice the grind most of the time because I'm just having too much fun blasting zeds . For that matter, though, why does any FPS have a progression system? Because it gives people incentive to explore all the content. It gives people a reason to keep coming back because there's always something new they can strive for. If that's not your thing and you just want access to all the content from the get go, fair enough, but I don't think KF2's progression system is going anywhere.

I won't lie, though... I would really like it if, after leveling up one perk to 25, you got some kind of reusable XP booster that would allow you to level the other perks up faster.

 

[trigger7]

Fair enough, but the guys here make it sound like getting to level 25 is such a chore. I don't even notice the grind most of the time because I'm just having too much fun blasting zeds . For that matter, though, why does any FPS have a progression system? Because it gives people incentive to explore all the content. It gives people a reason to keep coming back because there's always something new they can strive for. If that's not your thing and you just want access to all the content from the get go, fair enough, but I don't think KF2's progression system is going anywhere.

I won't lie, though... I would really like it if, after leveling up one perk to 25, you got some kind of reusable XP booster that would allow you to level the other perks up faster.

Well, thankfully the game is good, so it's enjoyable with or without levels.

I do think, though, that the first 15 levels or so are a bit of a pain in the buttocks, being "forced" to play normal and hard.

Ok, you're not actually forced to do so, but at low level on sui and hoe, I think you're more of a liability to your team than an asset (with the added HP scaling and you not having damage/utility bonuses).


I think vealck hit the nail on the head with his explanation.
That's the only reasonable explanation I can imagine and agree on, yet I can't help but feel it's a sad, sad one.

It's like today's generation of gamers can't enjoy any game without being told what to do, without an articificial carrot on a stick that adds nothing to the gameplay.

 

[Jr175]

the problem with gaining everything at the moment you start the game is that it drops your immediate motivation to play the game. It's like hacking a game to give you end-game content right at the start. What do you do then? You've already got the best equipment, so there's really no reason to grind anymore, is there? Sure, you might want to fool around with said equipment, but after a while, it'll just grow old.

but then how do people have over hundreds or even thousands of hours invested in kf1? How do people to this day still play the first just as they did years ago when it was released? This is a lie plain as day, simply because people enjoyed the gameplay more or less as it was and still is. You can tell because people do fun things they like to do over and over.

In a wave based shooter like this one (or any which one for that matter), there is no such thing as "end game content". There is an end game in terms of difficulty but this is completely different than what, "end game" usually implies.

There's only ever waves 1-5/8/11 depending on length and the only thing that modifies difficulty are the difficulties themselves. So if you suck on hoe as a 0, you will suck at it as a 25 irregardless because the thing that separates the good players from the bad is knowledge and skill. Currently there is such a gap between difficulties, that most people don't even learn how to play properly. This is what makes the tougher difficulties, the meat of the true game if you will, simply unplayable. (but that isn't even the reason hoe is unplayable right now lol)

it's the same thing with kf2, and why so many people pause playing the game between updates. The moment you hit 25 with the newest class, then what do you do? Sure, you could be the next q3.railgun (i believe that's him) and start testing mechanics for the classes, but why even do that when he and simplecat are already giving full details on class mechanics.

or, people could continue to play because the game is fun, not because there is a monotonous task to be done. Albeit people do put the game down after they reach 25 and them some because the current balance is bad, they could continue to play if they saw the game fun for shooting things and not leveling up. (which, again, is currently not possible whether you are a pub or pro on the hardest difficulty.)

the point of leveling in this game is so that there is a drive for you to play. It's also the reason why achievements exist, and so there's that drive for people who are completionists.

if this is true, then the 30$ people are paying, who might or might not be completionists just play 200 hours of leveling and then put the game down for good? Just farm the achievements and that's it? What about the game's gameplay? The supposed thing that is the reason people play the game should be a side? I can't even fathom what whoever thinks this way would think this as fine or justifiable.

the game doesn't care if you were a kf1 veteran. Many people were, they all sucked it up, and continued to play and grind the game until they were max again. You're no special snowflake either, you're just another one of the customers.

The game really isn't a sentient being to do so, so I guess this is fine?

Joking aside, should they have, "sucked it up"? I know we're just customers, but we're the Early Access Customers who all equally payed a minimum of 30$ to either play test and give feed back or to just play the game some of us have been playing since 2009. Some of us are also the people who played the game beyond the normal lifespan of the game and have proper informed opinions about how the base game should more or less be in order for it to be somewhat fun. So, I don't know, take it as you will.

Edit:Fixed it finally

Edit:Also to the first point not that I think about it, then why the heck do people still play Gmod? You are given everything at the start and have no objectives. The case in point is that people need to play KF2 for fun, not for leveling.

 

[VastSpartan]

.

eh?

 

[LiquidArrow]

Can this thread get locked if people are only replying with periods and eh's to keep it bumped.

It is a core mechanic of the game. Not going to change. This is just a venting complaint thread.

 

[VastSpartan]

Can this thread get locked if people are only replying with periods and eh's to keep it bumped.

It is a core mechanic of the game. Not going to change. This is just a venting complaint thread.

Hence

"At this point you sound and act like a wretched brat. "I want this and that but its just too much work. Give it to me now" "

 

[Jr175]

It is a core mechanic of the game. Not going to change. This is just a venting complaint thread.

Ironically, as a previously proposed change in this thread, it can change because it does not have to be a thing. Why? Because it isn't even necessary/doesn't do the supposed, "job". What really matters are perk unlocks which can be done away with the leveling. I.E. just have the perks unlocked because there are no levels to grind, and the passives can also just be given along side them.

Then the real thing separating the good and bad will just purely be difficulty. If people find normal easy then they can freely move up or down the ladder until they feel comfort in their skill. Eventually, through actual progression in either personal skill or joint efforts between friends, more people will start to play whatever difficulty without having a ton of people who just don't know what it is they are doing.

And by the way, it isn't venting if it's an actual topic that can be discussed in proper discourse.

 

[Vaser]

Agree. Please lock.

 

[UltraJake]

Yes, lock so people with an opinion other than my own cannot express their dissatisfaction with the current implementation.

 

[Jr175]

Yes, lock so people with an opinion other than my own cannot express their dissatisfaction with the current implementation.

It's astounding that people want this to be buried so quickly and locked so that it can't be bumped. It's almost as if they know the topic is worthy of a discussion they would rather not have.

 

[trigger7]

If you think about it, having faster leveling (or no leveling at all) would benefit everyone :

Those of us who don't enjoy the grind would get to enjoy how the game is supposed to be played (HoE at level 25, imho) a lot quicker.

And those who only care about the levels would be done a lot faster so they can move on to the next game and earn more internet points or whatever it is they're after.

Win-win.

 

[Cinderblocks]

If you think about it, having faster leveling (or no leveling at all) would benefit everyone :

Those of us who don't enjoy the grind would get to enjoy how the game is supposed to be played (HoE at level 25, imho) a lot quicker.

And those who only care about the levels would be done a lot faster so they can move on to the next game and earn more internet points or whatever it is they're after.

Win-win.

It's almost odd that they aren't doing as CoD does and make leveling to max fairly quick and then have prestige levels with useless baubles and achievements to chase.

 

[UltraJake]

It's almost odd that they aren't doing as CoD does and make leveling to max fairly quick and then have prestige levels with useless baubles and achievements to chase.

That would make more sense, except having fast 0-25 would also mean fast stat changes, which would be odd. Just untie the stats from levels.

 

[vludax]

The leveling system is pointless with all those leveling maps available...

 

[Johnny Darko]

Having levels is an incentive to keep those who are unable to stay interesting without awards and flashing lights playing. The fact is that leveling harms the gameplay. As soon as you start figuring out exact details like shots to kill each zed with each weapon, suddenly you level up and all those numbers are now different. This is going to happen 25 times, ignoring the balance patches which also force you to dump previously acquired knowledge.

Similarly, having levels means that the difficulty isn't balanced solely with skill in mind. They have to keep in mind potential players' levels too. Normal as a level 0 is normal. Normal as a level 25 is Easy. It's a slider that simply serves to make balance harder to pinpoint. If a level 25 player wanted to hop into normal for a slower-paced gallop for a while, he's going to be so ridiculously out of place, even if he isn't that good, that he'll also be ruining it for everyone like level 0's do in HoE. What's a level 25 to do? Not fire his gun?

Games don't need incentive to keep playing. You know what the incentive is? Fun. It's a trend that has only really started this past decade. Everyone got along fine without it. Another argument is that it forces people to improve before jumping in to harder difficulties and ruining it for everyone else. Well guess what? People still regularly jump into harder difficulties even with levels. That's no argument. It fixes nothing. All it does is keep good players grinding for longer before they can play at the same level as someone who's weapons magically do more damage or who has more health and move speed. Levels feel like a crutch rather than just a cosmetic indication of play time like they should be. Levels shouldn't exist, and certainly not as they currently do. Maybe when all the perks are in and Tripwire starts doing those balance passes they should keep this in mind.

Fantastic post.

What's even worse about having a level system is that getting friends into the game takes eons. I remember back in KF1 someone new got invited into my usual gang and the only way to play the game at all was either to set the difficulty way down so that they could have fun and bore everyone else to tears or pull the difficulty up so that it was actually engaging to those who had level 6 perks, but then the new guy got screwed because of sheer statistics rather than any amount of actual skill.

Now I have a huge edge in levels above my old group of friends who simply don't have the time to play the game for ages to unlock what they already earned back in the first game. This time the level gap is less stupid on the sheer numbers side especially with the discount system removed, but some of the unlockable skills are a ridiculously huge boon (Demolitions, for example, cannot actually play the game at all until level 15) so you're just grinding for that rather than for that next couple % of damage. Even then, the numbers still matter. So, if your friends have a job, go to college, or both, hope you like waiting for a couple of years for them to catch up with you so that you can FINALLY play some Hell on Earth with them.

EXP gain is faster this time around especially on high difficulties which is good, but people without the perk skills to succeed on said difficulties are just going to wipe and get less EXP than you would from a full Normal/Hard game anyways thanks to how much the bosses give.

It's not like level reflects skill in the least anyways. Someone can gain their first 15 levels by playing Normal and then join a Suicidal game where no one will bat an eyelash, then showcase that they have no clue what they're doing because of how braindead Normal is. Not to mention the amount of people that just cheat the levels, proving that they are only there to punish players who don't do the same.

Not even to start on how the EXP system promotes being competitive with those you are cooperating with and wasting ammo.

 

[Shambler]

I think this idea is bad.

Probably a good reason that KF is more popular than other coop-shooter type games is because there are still parts of the game which encourage competitiveness. Stuff like the money, XP, scorebored and perk level all let you gauge yourself against other players at various levels and I love that stuff.
It gives me feedback on how much I have been improving as I play and the progression also helps me forget how I am literally playing the same 45 minute long game mode over and over.

 

[infntnub]

I think this idea is bad.

Probably a good reason that KF is more popular than other coop-shooter type games is because there are still parts of the game which encourage competitiveness.

There's nothing competitive about KF... 1 or 2.

It's you and teammates vs computer controlled creatures. I'm not sure how you can classify that as competitive unless you simply are referencing racing for kills?

Call of Duty or any other PVP title - that's competition.

 

[Shambler]

There's nothing competitive about KF... 1 or 2.

It's you and teammates vs computer controller creatures. That's not competition heh.

Call of Duty or any other PVP title - that's competition.

Well, the competition is which human can kill the computer controlled creatures the best.

I'm not saying its a particularly big competition but I am saying it's valuable to the game.