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TWi doesn't understand the HoE difficulty

PainKiller66

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 12, 2016
237
5
0
Game designer said that now majority of players fail at completing HoE game and thus they will not increase the difficulty. BUT THAT WHAT IT SHOULD BE. Highest difficulty should always have low success rate, because most players are casual players (nothing bad about it).

The concept of highest difficulty in Horde Mode PvE game should be that without correct picks, knowing what to do and communication it would impossible to complete. That what makes it interesting, challenging and replayable. I'm not the best player in KF2, but I can complete HoE game with random players without lot of concentration and with zero communication. You just stand there and yawn, knowing that most likely you will pass. Not tension, no thrill, no surprises. It's not right. When you playing hardest difficulty - you should know that if you and your team don't play right - you will not pass.

Look at Overwatch Archives PvE mode for example (or Mann vs Machine of Team Fortress 2). It's absolutely impossible to complete it with casual team of random picks, without knowing what to do and without communication. And in Overwatch it's not even part of main game, it's just extra mode. So why dedicated PvE Horde game can't give us this much tension and challenge?

You may say there is Controlled Difficulty mod, but let's be honest - almost no one plays custom modes and maps. There maybe 1-2 empty CD servers per region.

The solution I see could be to just ramp up difficulty of HoE, or add 5th difficulty somewhere in between so that current HoE becomes Suicidal, and name "Hell on Earth" still stays hardest but ramped up.
 

flashn00b

Active member
Feb 1, 2011
677
34
28
I get the feeling that Hell on Earth isn't supposed to be taken seriously, since Suicidal already calls for Level 25 perks.
 

Sarcy

Member
Dec 9, 2018
55
5
8
32
I personally feel there should be an intermediate between Hard and Suicidal because the leap between those is far bigger than it is from Suicidal to Hell on Earth.

I honestly think "Normal" should be removed because "Hard" is easy enough, problem is by the time you get a perk/several perks into double figures "Hard" is a cakewalk and you're just grinding to be able to do anything in Suicidal.

Assuming Normal stays in I suggest something like this:

Normal - Recommended Levels 0-5
Hard - Recommended Levels 6-10
Very Hard - New intermediate wherein enemies are faster, tougher etc BUT Husks do NOT use their Flamethrowers up close* - Recommended Levels 11-15
Suicidal - Unchanged, i.e. Husks DO use their Flamethrowers up close - Recommended Levels 16-20
Hell on Earth - Recommended Levels 20+

*There are probably other Suicidal-related differences but this ranks amongst the most jarring when transitioning from Hard to Suicidal.
I still feel some enemies should be limited to certain difficulties - EDARs, Quarter Pounders and Rioters to name a few but that's another story.
 

Dr. Lethal

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2017
610
80
0
24
The main difference between the difficulties is the zed health, their tactics, and when big zeds can spawn. You won't see a scrake around wave 2 or 3 outside of suicidal and HoE. Then again, it can feel trivial to those who mastered the game enough, but that doesn't guarantee a win.
 

The_Survivalist

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 7, 2019
5
1
3
All they need to do is increase the running speed of a raged scrake so you can't outrun it.

Like how it is in kf1.
 

infntnub

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 25, 2012
2,155
77
48
Pennsylvania
The_Survivalist;n2331556 said:
All they need to do is increase the running speed of a raged scrake so you can't outrun it.

Like how it is in kf1.
I'd be on board with bringing back this along with the old FP mechanics. It was like playing a game of chess at times.
 

Dr. Lethal

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2017
610
80
0
24
The_Survivalist;n2331556 said:
All they need to do is increase the running speed of a raged scrake so you can't outrun it.

Like how it is in kf1.
Technically, the only perk that can outrun a scrake is the gunslinger. The scrake can catch up to everyone else, but he always slows down to attack which can let you stat just out of arm's reach.
 

The_Survivalist

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 7, 2019
5
1
3
infntnub;n2331567 said:
I'd be on board with bringing back this along with the old FP mechanics. It was like playing a game of chess at times.
Yes, needing to break line of sight was quite fun.

But bringing that back would make kf2 easier... and that's not what we want. :)
 

The_Survivalist

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 7, 2019
5
1
3
Dr. Lethal;n2331568 said:
Technically, the only perk that can outrun a scrake is the gunslinger. The scrake can catch up to everyone else, but he always slows down to attack which can let you stat just out of arm's reach.
If you're a fast moving perk, you can kite scrakes until the end of time.
And it shouldn't be like that.
In kf1, I feared scrakes. In kf2, I purposely rage every one I come across just to make things more interesting. :p
 
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{SS}_Jim236

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 27, 2018
7
3
0
56
I see the fails in HOE every day,the difficulty is fine,
just the spawn system that needs fine tuning.
 

Dr. Lethal

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2017
610
80
0
24
The_Survivalist;n2331577 said:
If you're a fast moving perk, you can kite scrakes until the end of time.
And it shouldn't be like that.
In kf1, I feared scrakes. In kf2, I purposely rage every one I come across just to make things more interesting. :p
I wonder if your team appreciates that. Getting blindsided by a raged scrake because someone failed to end him quickly is actually worse than a fleshpound because you know someone on your team had to set him off. Also, there's only 3 perks in the game that are inherently fast (4 if survivalist is using the melee skill). Otherwise, you can just barely keep ahead of him with everyone else.
 
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Nova!

Member
Feb 23, 2013
434
4
18
Also, you're not supposed to "fear" Scrakes any more than you're supposed to "fear" other powerful targets, like groups of Crawlers, Husks, or Sirens. Scrakes are big meatheads meant to be dangerous bullet sponges that need to be paced out or they're going to run through your team. Fleshpounds are and always have been the target that you see and either go "hah, already dead" or "oh ****, we're dead".

Hell, compared to KF1's more plodding and paced Zeds spawned, Scrakes in Kf2 are much scarier. The only reason to not be more scared of KF2 scrakes is because they play a noise whenever they spawn, otherwise they spawn more frequently and, in the much tighter-corridor-focused map design of KF2, are much harder to avoid raging.

And trust me, with how frequently KF2 HoE throws Scrakes at me, I've been conditioned to fear the guy. 3-4 raging KF2 Scrakes is basically an instant teamwipe unless you're all Level 25 Zerks or have 2 dedicated Medics. Any more than 2 before Wave ~4/7 or ~6/10 and the team's probably just going to die, either because they don't do enough damage to kill all of them, or they don't have enough ammo.
 

Kazaanh

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 21, 2011
52
5
0
Polska
I feel like the new level design of map and introduction of new zed types, increased the HoE difficulty by a lot. And made some perks feel less impactful.

This is a game where you band together and camp in place A or B but Tripwire is constantly making it harder by introducing rioters, edars, quarter ponds and very agressive map spawners for ZEDs to reduce this camping.

I mean, you want to remove camping in the game that whole purpouse is to camp in order to survive? Hit & Run tactics don't work that good anymore, There have been less weld-able doors with good map spots too.

Most new maps are quite unfriendly towards perks like GS, based on my experience from 1 year break. It was more frustrating to play than enjoyable.

Maybe instead of adding ridiculous feeling zeds, it would be wiser to make a new ZED abillities instead. I still feel when you combat EDARs you don't feel that "umpf" and feedback reaction, a proper implementation of G.O.R.E system for them would be nicer. Also remove them from stalker-spawning pool. Laser EDAR can 1shot you before you notice and kind of feedback and taser EDAR that takes away a control from you is not fun mechanic ( it would be better if as long as you are being hold , other zeds ignore that player )

Just compare maps like outposts to any other new one. Difficulty curve in terms of level design is off the charts. I can understand HoE is there to test your skills and cooperation but if whole cooperation thing applies to 2 zerkers 2 medics and 2 demos/sharps then well . . .

We have been definitely having less fun, and game become more frustrating than enjoyable ( inb try suicidal ). Sui is a cakewalk with our skill levels sadly. Just some of my thoughts based on latest matches we played.
 

killer89

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 13, 2015
6
0
0
Dr. Lethal;n2331276 said:
The main difference between the difficulties is the zed health, their tactics, and when big zeds can spawn.
+ the amount of zeds per wave (also the amount of players affects to scaling... Didn't the amount of players also affect to zeds' health?)
 

Dr. Lethal

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2017
610
80
0
24
killer89;n2332590 said:
+ the amount of zeds per wave (also the amount of players affects to scaling... Didn't the amount of players also affect to zeds' health?)
It affects body health but head health stays relatively low.
 

Sarcy

Member
Dec 9, 2018
55
5
8
32
I feel if the Daily Objective payouts aren't adjusted to a tiered system where harder objectives yield more Dosh that HoE should be removed outright from the selection because some combinations are more a chore than a fun challenge - namely the Holdout maps and Santa's Workshop *shudders*

Seriously attempting Santa's Workshop HoE Solo is among the most brutal things this game can ask of you. Between dealing damage, protecting the ungodly slow cart, reloading, healing and repairing it is akin to 'pat your head and rub your tummy' except whilst hopping on one leg, blinking alternate eyes and reciting the alphabet backwards^

^Anyone who can pull this off I tip my hat to thee, I also recommend a talent show application