Thoughts on the direction of the game

[Oldih]

I've been seeing these sentiments on these threads. I always felt these same feelings...but about KF1. There are so many things in KF1 that was under the hood, that I had to explore online, and even explain to friends and strangers in pub matches.

How could you possibly know that a fp was weak to explosives. That a scrake was resist

 

[TheIncredibleGrusi]

In recent times I've been pretty concerned about some of the design decisions for the game. I know this is something you've heard time and time again. Resistances, PvP, Knockback, things of that nature. As isolated features you can say why each on their own may not be good for the game. But I feel as though these are a symptom of a much greater problem.

Trying too hard

I feel as though Tripwire are forcing teamplay through resistances, new strategies through knockback and new ways to think about the game entirely through PvP. It seems as though there is a goal to make KF2 far more than just a simple co-op horde shooter. All these stats and weak zones / vulnerabilities make it seem as is TWI are trying to create a complex and in-depth meta for the game.

In my mind Killing Floor has always been a simple game. In all the hundreds of hours I played kf1 I never knew of resistances or payed much mind to the optimal strategy. I felt as though there was no need to think about what weapon counters what. I just picked a gun I thought was cool and killed **** with it. I can't say I expected a whole lot else for Killing Floor 2 in that regard either. The things I loved were music, gore, the characters and the atmosphere. Never much more.

To me it seems as though Tripwire are trying far too many experimental features that either force some kind of meta or fly in the face of the formula that the original established. Of course early access is a time for experimentation and trying new things, but I feel the recent additions don't even feel like the game I thought I was buying.

Don't see this as a complaint but more of a question. Will there be a focus on more basic or simplistic features in future? Improvements to the gore like more dynamic blood decals, extra body deformation, new animations, more organs?
Can we expect an easier implementation of soundtrack modding as right now it's quite awkward.
Maybe some more kick to the audio and particle effects or weapons? Lingering smoke trails, casings that sit around for the entire length of the game? How about an animation for a single shell reload on the DBS. These were all things I felt were the focus of those cool dev diaries we had before early access began but it seems like there's been a focus shift.

It's all my personal opinion but these small, yet fun and pleasing features are what make Killing Floor the game I love. I never really wanted anything more extravagant for it.

Does Tripwire intend to update these smaller features that improve the overall quality, immersion and aesthetics of the experience or are we shifting away into larger and more experimental features?

I would also like to know what you guys think? Do you want large changes which shake things up and potentially change the game for the better or would you prefer smaller changes which improve upon an established formula?

About KF2...KF2 is not KF1. Also, there were a lot of in-depth mechanics, but most people ignored them it seems. Especially Sharpshooter had ways of taking out entire waves of FPs and Scrakes without much troubles (if you knew how). Also let me not get started about Berserkers in KF1 lol.

I understand the point that you just want to get in there and have fun, like you did in KF1. But I have to point out that simply doing what you want barely got you anywhere even in KF1 (Suicidal and HoE, especially).

Anyway...yes they are trying too hard you could say, too much changes at the same time. Agreeing there totally.

No, the new changes about resistances are not a bad thing. You can always go for the head and mostly ignore their resistances (Like you did against FPs in KF1, only Firebug had problems their, obviously). This will get you somewhere, even in KF2 - The head is always vulnerable as hell, and has around 1/4 to 1/3 hp for most Zeds (exception - Siren, Husk, Crawler). If the head is gone, the Zed will follow soon.

To me, it just makes sense that a big, bulky, with metal reinforced brute does not care too much about fire, bullets, etc., but takes massive damage from an explosion due to his body being a much bigger target.

Anyway - Important is that we all keep in mind KF2 is an evolution, Zeds are supposed to be more versatile, less predictible, but so are we. Although most of the not-being-predictable comes with Zedporting, which is still annoying.

What I would like to see though are bigger maps. A lot bigger. And no Zedporting, but them moving through the map unlike we can (jumping on buildings, using shortcuts through, for us, non-accessable ways)

And yeah, it seems like the Devs forgot a few things they wanted to focus on in Early-Access. Or they have it going, and are just refining it. I do not know that.

As of now, I like KF2. But if I go public, I see too many people abusing cheap methods of taking out things (Berserker plus Med, SS Sniper spam on everything, Demolitions unloading on anything they see, etc). This is not really something that I like, lately.

Anyone remembers the first build? The Zeds were tough back then. More of them, less resistances, but more aggressive. I miss that a bit right now. You can hold them back to easily now, it seems.

 

[JoelFig]

Sure man! Post here or pm me

Sent you something, though I received no feedback of it going through(first pm I've sent on this forum). If you could confirm that would be awesome.

 

[ThunderClaw]

Take for example the stalker. She is actually always meant to be a higher threat then she was even in kf1 we just never nailed it. Heck most the time your shooting and she happens to be in the way of a bullet and dies. In the last update she was more inline to the threat we had pictured way back in kf1 days but the problem was that the players recall is this zed should be super easy to kill and it just didn't click in there minds.

It's really, really hard to take this seriously when put in the context of what was actually done with the Stalker in KF1 and her overall trajectory in KF2.

How, exactly, is she supposed to be a 'higher threat'? From an attack profile - and ignoring any resistances/hp/anything like that - she is a cloaked Clot that can't grab you. You guys actually made a 'higher threat' clot, you just called him an Alpha and called it a day. It worked great and people learned the differences between them pretty quickly, cleanly, and with no fuss at all. The niche filled by her current behavior set is filled and even if Alphas aren't doing quite what they should be doing right now, they could be addressed in many ways - making them a little shorter or taller to present a different target from lesser Clots, faster movement, etc.

In a similar way, KF2 has an open invitation to talk about the overall roles of these Zeds, but by and large we haven't really had those discussions. There's been a couple of interesting changes, like the Fleshpound's penchant for guarding his chest when he charges, but there's been no larger discussion on what things 'should' be doing.

So how, exactly, is the Stalker supposed to be a 'higher threat'? She seems to naturally fill many of the same niches as the Crawler - she's hunched over, presenting a smaller target, she is clearly designed to surprise people, and her attack is quick and insidious closer in (vs big and flashy like the Gorefast's).

And yet nothing about the way she's traditionally deployed in a game suggests that she has these niches. She doesn't flank as much as she should, she doesn't wait for an opening like she probably should, she doesn't even use Crawler-only spawn routines to surprise players as reliably as Crawlers. The Crawler actually does stealth way better than the Stalker at this point, so maybe she should take a few pages from its book?

So I mean, have we ever tried to nail the Stalker's balance by considering her the Gorefast to the Crawler's Clot? Have FEWER stalkers spawn with some Crawler support, give her a damage bonus for hitting people in the back. Give that a shot, you don't even need to make any complicated AI changes, just spawn and utilization routine changes that place her closer to the ambusher role and punish players for letting her ambush. The entire reason people hated the 'discovery' of her most recent tune-up was because you're still spawning Stalkers like Clots but were expecting half of the perks in the game to have to mag dump them. We perfectly understood what was going on there, we hated it because it was stupid.


If I seem hostile here I apologize, but your post comes off very much as a 'the players don't understand the vision for OUR GAME' (the attitude that killed Day-Z and dozens of other games) and the condescending tone is reinforced when a clearly intelligent person like yourself can't be bothered to use their/there correctly.

 

[silverlighted]

1. Simply by playing. Even if it was not technically accurate, if you played the game more than once a blue moon you probably figured out scrake ate explosives for breakfast and fleshies on the other hand seemed not as obvious. And I specifically tried to state on lower difficulties and especially early in the game's lifespan between 2009 to 2012 I never ran into serious case of "How on earth this game works again?" despite changes here and there. As time passed on yes, it got more complicated.

Perhaps more accurate note here is information feedback loop. Even random player booting the game for the first time right now may not require 3rd party wiki just shake off suboptimal practices in bare-bones, basic feature of the game. KF2 resistances at first, well I dare to say it veered tightly to said direction.

I don't think I would have ever realized it on my own. But to be fair, I researched stuff pretty early on so I'm just guessing. I was just saying that MANY ppl just presumed scrakes had resistance, but that obviously wasn't true.

RE: the life span thing, I acknowledge that in your next point below.

This is where I simply disagree. I think if a friend of mine who hasn't played KF2 just booted it up now, they wouldn't be any more disadvantaged than if they had booted KF2 up last April. Wait. I'm replying correctly right? I'm not really sure I follow your last point.

2. True, it never had one. It also never had kinda-out-of-nowhere alterations during its lifespan which completely broke information feedback loop. I wouldn't mind if official testing grounds\training map\whatever one wishes to call it was added to KF2.

This is early access. I kinda expected massive overhauls to the design during it. It's...PRE-lifespan lol.

Well yeah, training map is definitely a must. I don't think it would be much effort to implement. I mean. You can easily set it up via enablecheats and loading up solo play, but a user friendly room a la those training rooms would be great. It's kind of a hassle to load up a game, and kill off all the zeds to clear the room.

3. Perhaps not, but here it goes back to Munk's note about people disliking change yet also wanting something to change. It wasn't entirely out of the blue strictly speaking, but suddenly changing how the game works? Happens. Suddenly changing major part of the game that requires multiple factors to be taken into account in order not to waste ammo like an idiot - especially on higher difficulties - and whatnot? Gee whiz, I wonder why Internet kneejerk ****storm was in full swing.

edit: I was just responding without realizing what you were responding too. lol
so yeah same point here too...the present system and any new system should be evaluated in terms of how a new player would react. The fact that it is forcing players to abandon certain things that they're used to shouldn't be a criticism, given that the game is in early access.

 

[Greenbacks]

Take for example the stalker. She is actually always meant to be a higher threat then she was even in kf1 we just never nailed it. Heck most the time your shooting and she happens to be in the way of a bullet and dies. In the last update she was more inline to the threat we had pictured way back in kf1 days but the problem was that the players recall is this zed should be super easy to kill and it just didn't click in there minds. Which is totally valid and a great learning lesson for me.

I'd just like to say that the issue with stalker for me (and probably others) was she was taking damage you wouldn't expect something of her stature to take. Even the alpha clot and slasher look like they could take more than the stalker to me. I agree the stalker should be a higher threat, but not in a bullet-sponge way. She should take sneakier paths to players besides bee-lining like the rest of the zeds, and have less predictable movement. This way she also wouldn't die from just being in the way all the time.

 

[Lorkenpeist]

I'd just like to say that the issue with stalker for me (and probably others) was she was taking damage you wouldn't expect something of her stature to take. Even the alpha clot and slasher look like they could take more than the stalker to me. I agree the stalker should be a higher threat, but not in a bullet-sponge way. She should take sneakier paths to players besides bee-lining like the rest of the zeds, and have less predictable movement. This way she also wouldn't die from just being in the way all the time.

+1 to that. In PvP I enjoy jumping around wildly as a stalker while I approach my prey, so they have a hard time tracking me even if they do see me. I think it would be great if they did that in PvE, instead of only flipping around while they attack. It would increase the challenge significantly while still keeping them fragile as they should be. Also they should be lone wolves, actively avoiding other zeds so that they don't get accidentally killed by bullets or grenades that were intended for visible targets.

 

[Oldih]

I don't think I would have ever realized it on my own. But to be fair, I researched stuff pretty early on so I'm just guessing. I was just saying that MANY ppl just presumed scrakes had resistance, but that obviously wasn't true.

RE: the life span thing, I acknowledge that in your next point below.

This is where I simply disagree. I think if a friend of mine who hasn't played KF2 just booted it up now, they wouldn't be any more disadvantaged than if they had booted KF2 up last April. Wait. I'm replying correctly right? I'm not really sure I follow your last point.

Even if the assumption was incorrect, practically it had little effect to gameplay. Scrake ran through entire minefield of pipebombs and took few M32 barrages in its face. Maybe it's explosives aren't the best possible weapon type. Fleshie does the same, it blows up way before scrake did. Simple observation everyone is capable of doing.

They already altered the resistances to be more reasonable in KF2, so I don't think it's that big deal anymore.

This is early access. I kinda expected massive overhauls to the design during it. It's...PRE-lifespan lol.

Well, it's not like KF2 is kept locked up inside ex-Soviet bloc bunker inside a vault with testers wearing hazmat suits unavailable to the public after it's done. Sure, it's not finished as intended but it's product you can buy with a money that has been out bit over a year. If KF2 ends up being finished from EA in say, conjectural two years from now I'd find it hilarious to claim it's lifespan began in 2018.

edit: I was just responding without realizing what you were responding too. lol
so yeah same point here too...the present system and any new system should be evaluated in terms of how a new player would react. The fact that it is forcing players to abandon certain things that they're used to shouldn't be a criticism, given that the game is in early access.

I think it should be criticised like anything else given sufficient grounds for it. Was firebug's major damage output's (temporary) reduction on top of newfound mad Matrix dodge skillz truly necessary? Was firebug hilariously broken powerhouse that grilled zed bacon for breakfast? Or was it merely arbitrary change that wasn't (possibly) properly tested and called out appropriately? Early access defence goes only so far, but on the flipside "mishaps" like this will most likely help shape the game in the long run for the better.

 

[Munchiesaurus Rex]

It's all so simple.

KF1 was fun to play.

KF2 is a chore.

If you want the KF1 vets to like KF2 - add the game mechanics from KF1. Then when you have KF1 with better graphics - add the rest mechanics like resistances, surfaces, stumble and so on and then add the new perks. Have the things that made KF1 great and then add more.

What you have right now in KF2 is just a skelleton of the game. You have the enemies, the maps and the portagonists and thats all. No mechanics, no gameplay, nothing. I understand that resisntaces was a way to add a ways for the game to be interesting in some way but it was a really bad idea.

Just turn KF2 into KF1 with better graphics, then add all the new stuff and perks and profit.

My questions to the devs is: Why are you trying to invent the wheel?

 

[poultrygeist]

My questions to the devs is: Why are you trying to invent the wheel?

they dont..they are reinforcing with iron rims

 

[Reclusiarch]

It's all so simple.

KF1 was fun to play.

KF2 is a chore.

If you want the KF1 vets to like KF2 - add the game mechanics from KF1. Then when you have KF1 with better graphics - add the rest mechanics like resistances, surfaces, stumble and so on and then add the new perks. Have the things that made KF1 great and then add more.

What you have right now in KF2 is just a skelleton of the game. You have the enemies, the maps and the portagonists and thats all. No mechanics, no gameplay, nothing. I understand that resisntaces was a way to add a ways for the game to be interesting in some way but it was a really bad idea.

Just turn KF2 into KF1 with better graphics, then add all the new stuff and perks and profit.

My questions to the devs is: Why are you trying to invent the wheel?

Haven't you thought that maybe it isn't fun for you, but for others it really is? If you distaste all of the features that TWI implemented to their game, then maybe the game is not for you. "No mechanics, no gameplay, nothing." is hyperbolic as hell. KF1 and KF2 are different beasts with the same base ideas, but still different to each other in the end.

BTW, doing a remaster with added stuff wouldn't be a proper sequel, it would be just a remaster...

 

[Escadin]

Haven't you heard?

"Hyperbole is as good as facts when criticizing Tripwire. No wait, it's even better!"
-Everyone who frequents the steam forum


That's the only way they're going to learn!

 

[Reclusiarch]

Haven't you heard?

"Hyperbole is as good as facts when criticizing Tripwire. No wait, it's even better!"
-Everyone who frequents the steam forum


That's the only way they're going to learn!

You have enlightened me, oh bringer of truth!