Thoughts on the direction of the game

[eckojay]

In recent times I've been pretty concerned about some of the design decisions for the game. I know this is something you've heard time and time again. Resistances, PvP, Knockback, things of that nature. As isolated features you can say why each on their own may not be good for the game. But I feel as though these are a symptom of a much greater problem.

Trying too hard

I feel as though Tripwire are forcing teamplay through resistances, new strategies through knockback and new ways to think about the game entirely through PvP. It seems as though there is a goal to make KF2 far more than just a simple co-op horde shooter. All these stats and weak zones / vulnerabilities make it seem as is TWI are trying to create a complex and in-depth meta for the game.

In my mind Killing Floor has always been a simple game. In all the hundreds of hours I played kf1 I never knew of resistances or payed much mind to the optimal strategy. I felt as though there was no need to think about what weapon counters what. I just picked a gun I thought was cool and killed **** with it. I can't say I expected a whole lot else for Killing Floor 2 in that regard either. The things I loved were music, gore, the characters and the atmosphere. Never much more.

To me it seems as though Tripwire are trying far too many experimental features that either force some kind of meta or fly in the face of the formula that the original established. Of course early access is a time for experimentation and trying new things, but I feel the recent additions don't even feel like the game I thought I was buying.

Don't see this as a complaint but more of a question. Will there be a focus on more basic or simplistic features in future? Improvements to the gore like more dynamic blood decals, extra body deformation, new animations, more organs?
Can we expect an easier implementation of soundtrack modding as right now it's quite awkward.
Maybe some more kick to the audio and particle effects or weapons? Lingering smoke trails, casings that sit around for the entire length of the game? How about an animation for a single shell reload on the DBS. These were all things I felt were the focus of those cool dev diaries we had before early access began but it seems like there's been a focus shift.

It's all my personal opinion but these small, yet fun and pleasing features are what make Killing Floor the game I love. I never really wanted anything more extravagant for it.

Does Tripwire intend to update these smaller features that improve the overall quality, immersion and aesthetics of the experience or are we shifting away into larger and more experimental features?

I would also like to know what you guys think? Do you want large changes which shake things up and potentially change the game for the better or would you prefer smaller changes which improve upon an established formula?

 

[infntnub]

I would also like to know what you guys think? Do you want large changes which shake things up and potentially change the game for the better or would you prefer smaller changes which improve upon an established formula?

Now that the resist system has been pulled back for a rework I'm OK with the general direction of the game.

However, when KF2 first was released as EA I would have been just fine with KF1 w/ updated graphics along with the MEAT gore system for extra eye candy.

 

[juliex011]

This is kind of a retrospective post it seems like, but it made me want to think about what I like best about Killing Floor (both 1 and 2). It does tie into the resistance system a bit, like the poster suggested about trying to hard. Now that it's scaled back, it made me kind of realize the things I like about the game.
Someone earlier suggested I called it a "mindless shooter" and that's definitely not true. I always tell people that this game's kind of a zombie shooter but that it's different from what you expect. And that's what makes it so awesome, is that it doesn't follow the same formula as other games. It's certainly not a mindless shooter (I wouldn't have put almost 500 hours into it so far if it were) but at the same time it's not exactly rocket science. It takes practice and skill to get better but it's still incredibly satisfying all the same to blow things up and spill some blood 'n guts whether you're on your first game or 500th game. Plus, I mean, come on, the first game had gingerbread gorefasts and hillbilly fleshpounds chasing you ... now how serious can you really be with all that going on?
I think it's still going in the right direction. I think the resistances were just a little too much of a push and kinda destroyed that base fun of the game. They were scaled back and it feels more fun again, but I'm also glad they kept some, too.
But I also hope TW brings back some of that crazy, wacky hilarious stuff that just really made the game unique. Perhaps that "trying too hard" argument has some merit. I'm glad KF2 is a different game from KF1, but I still think it has the potential to be just as awesome.

 

[JoelFig]

From having played since the beginning, I don't like how much of a cakewalk the game is now. I HAVE to play HoE or I'm bored, and even HoE barely has enough excitement and challenge now. The gap between the players and the zeds has never been bigger with all of these reworks and the introduction of the sharp(with stuns and insane damage output). We're leaning more towards the shooting gallery gameplay of KF1 with every update and that was the main reason KF1 could not hold my attention the way KF2 did originally. For others its the opposite, so I suppose there was always going to be a part of the community that wasn't going to see their vision of the game.

 

[Munk]

To chime in from my perspective for what's it's worth. When it came to kf2 project it was for me a dream project that the team and myself could try to take the concept of kf1 and take it to the next level. As an animator/game designer I can't devote years of my life to something that's just turn key, kf1 with better graphics. Heck that would have been 10 times easier. Love or hate tripwire we try to always take things to the next level, it's because we truly love and care for what we do. Personally I think kf2 has so much better of an experience then kf1, this is my opinion and not fact. Kf2 has super fluid 1st person animations with details far higher then other shooters. We have a gore system that runs smooth even with everything blowing up all over the place and blood that never disappears. The hit reactions we have on the creatures is so much more advanced, we have customizable characters even every character you play as has its own voice. The hard thing which in ways I wish kf2 wasn't kf2 and its own game is to please kf1 fans that want nothing more then kf1 and still make the project grow and be something new and improved over the first game. It's no easy task. As far as the challenge level for kf2 it's our goal to have it easy to pick up but hard to master. were not there yet but I'm confident we'll get there. Pleasing fans for a sequel is very difficult. I'll give a perfect example, take call of duty series. The fans of that game say they want something more but if they change things up at all and don't just do the same game with better graphics there will be an uproar from the community. People love recall (doing something you already know) but hate recognition (learning something new) one thing I learned is with the Kf fans people want all weapons to feel extra powerful and kill thing if they hit their target from what they recall as a weak zed. Take for example the stalker. She is actually always meant to be a higher threat then she was even in kf1 we just never nailed it. Heck most the time your shooting and she happens to be in the way of a bullet and dies. In the last update she was more inline to the threat we had pictured way back in kf1 days but the problem was that the players recall is this zed should be super easy to kill and it just didn't click in there minds. Which is totally valid and a great learning lesson for me. In short the only way to make something better is to try and refine or even fail. The resistance system is a perfect example I just wish the fans didn't get so mad when we did it, but yet again a great growing experience this post is just my personal thoughts and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in what they want out of the game. In The end we need to make something we're all happy with, something kf1 fans will love and new people that didn't like kf1 to check out and also something that our team is excited to spend endless hours making.

 

[JoelFig]

I have some neat ideas that would up the ante for KF2 without straying far from the original formula if you care to listen Munk.

 

[Munk]

I have some neat ideas that would up the ante for KF2 without straying far from the original formula if you care to listen Munk.

Sure man! Post here or pm me

 

[Severeaids]

To chime in from my perspective for what's it's worth. When it came to kf2 project it was for me a dream project that the team and myself could try to take the concept of kf1 and take it to the next level. As an animator/game designer I can't devote years of my life to something that's just turn key, kf1 with better graphics. Heck that would have been 10 times easier. Love or hate tripwire we try to always take things to the next level, it's because we truly love and care for what we do. Personally I think kf2 has so much better of an experience then kf1, this is my opinion and not fact. Kf2 has super fluid 1st person animations with details far higher then other shooters. We have a gore system that runs smooth even with everything blowing up all over the place and blood that never disappears. The hit reactions we have on the creatures is so much more advanced, we have customizable characters even every character you play as has its own voice. The hard thing which in ways I wish kf2 wasn't kf2 and its own game is to please kf1 fans that want nothing more then kf1 and still make the project grow and be something new and improved over the first game. It's no easy task. As far as the challenge level for kf2 it's our goal to have it easy to pick up but hard to master. were not there yet but I'm confident we'll get there. Pleasing fans for a sequel is very difficult. I'll give a perfect example, take call of duty series. The fans of that game say they want something more but if they change things up at all and don't just do the same game with better graphics there will be an uproar from the community. People love recall (doing something you already know) but hate recognition (learning something new) one thing I learned is with the Kf fans people want all weapons to feel extra powerful and kill thing if they hit their target from what they recall as a weak zed. Take for example the stalker. She is actually always meant to be a higher threat then she was even in kf1 we just never nailed it. Heck most the time your shooting and she happens to be in the way of a bullet and dies. In the last update she was more inline to the threat we had pictured way back in kf1 days but the problem was that the players recall is this zed should be super easy to kill and it just didn't click in there minds. Which is totally valid and a great learning lesson for me. In short the only way to make something better is to try and refine or even fail. The resistance system is a perfect example I just wish the fans didn't get so mad when we did it, but yet again a great growing experience this post is just my personal thoughts and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in what they want out of the game. In The end we need to make something we're all happy with, something kf1 fans will love and new people that didn't like kf1 to check out and also something that our team is excited to spend endless hours making.

Such a brilliant post! I totally agree that kf2 is so much more than kf1. I love the game in fact I play it daily and am about to clock 500 hours in. If there is anything you need feed back on ill always be a voice for you guys!

 

[Oldih]

I'll give a perfect example, take call of duty series. The fans of that game say they want something more but if they change things up at all and don't just do the same game with better graphics there will be an uproar from the community. People love recall (doing something you already know) but hate recognition (learning something new) one thing I learned is with the Kf fans people want all weapons to feel extra powerful and kill thing if they hit their target from what they recall as a weak zed.

I never considered recognition an issue in KF1, since it was sufficiently simple, most oddities or exceptions were learned over time and the under-the-hood data wasn't necessary to function. As time went on it became slightly noticeable because of perk changes, new weapons etc but it never was obligatory to figure out how to at least play the game outside HoE. Now enter KF2 resistances initial introduction and there is tons of under-the-hood information, not mentioned anywhere in-game let alone elsewhere, no easy testing\training mode with easily setup and repeatable situations for data gathering or anything comparable to try out if something was changed aside from "Why the **** is weapon x and z so pathetic and\or random?" because really, how on earth could anyone know without extracting files and ruffling through the code?

If people dislike changes in rules they dislike unannounced changes in rules with a vengeance. Intent or purpose (and did they change something for the better or not) of said rules is irrelevant in situations like that.

 

[DreaderVII]

@Munk: So in the end, you want to make a game you find funny and bring in both Kf1 Vets and those who didin't like Kf1. I like that idea too.

I played over 850 hours in Kf2 so far, and I love it. I play a game or more each day and just enjoy to shoot stuff. I do not think it's that easy, but then again, I play with PuGs on Suicidal, I'm asking for more trouble.

Then you have the group of people that say the game is too easy, and it makes me wonder. Is the playstyle I enjoy to easy? Because if it is, it's Kf1 all over again for me. I could not play Kf1 on higher difficulties because it became to "specialised" with loadouts and tactics that I did not enjoy, I couldn't do the tehcniques required to perform at the best, which was the way harder games was played. So I sticked to Hard.

In Kf2 I feel like I'm actually doing well, maybe better then most, but there's still alot of complaints about the game being to easy.

I think that if you plan to appease Kf1 vets, you gonna need to make the game harder, what do you think, Munk?

 

[poultrygeist]

i have played kf1 on hard difficulty for almost 800hrs.then joined this forum and asked to find a group that regularily plays the game still. i did get a reply straight away from someone who promptly offered me to show how to play well on HoE ,a difficulty i always avoided.to add to that he took time to show me all the combos (shoutout to naksiloth...thanks m8 )
ffwd a bit..HoE is no challenge anymore and we usually play with mutators or look for spots to hold that seem impossible. we have a great laugh together and that is one reason i love kf1 to bits and always will.

at this stage i had already bought kf2 having been in love with the first one for a long time.

most of my mates despised kf2 because it isnt kf 2.0. so i came into the game with a little bias just to find out its actually pretty good.everything has improved especially the feel of those weapons.and that is one big reason i play games like this.

once again i had a friend who showed me all the tricks and gave advice on which skills to use for certain perks i enjoy playing as.

i used to be a bit of a wimp when it came to difficulty but the kf1 experience has changed me completely.its much more rewarding making it through if you have to play well.i also love teamplay and tactics which you need in kf2 to survive.

my opinion of the resistance system is that it was actually pretty good and only needed a little tweaking. the guys at twi had listen to the huge outcry from the fans and tweaked it back alot...and iam cool with it. the game is still great fun to play.

twi has grown as a company since the kf1 days.they have hired new heads with different ideas and also brought out other games.as a company as creative as twi a change and step up of this franchise was to be expected and i for one welcome it.

these days i play very little kf1,kf2 has replaced it as my main evening windown. and even some of my mates who didnt like the game at all are coming around now

in all..its good we have a new game which has kf as its base but with a new direction. to be able to adapt and learn new mechanics is perhaps a bit of a chore in the beginning but overall adds to the fun of discovering new things.
i love both games. thank you twi for all the effort and endless hours of fun

 

[Ryno5660]

I just want to say I think the direction it takes is less inportant than the conviction TW have to take that direction, if that makes sense.

As long as the passion for the work is there it will thrive. If the passion subsides it'll be noticed in the actual game itself, it's a strange phenomenon but you can tell when love and care has gone into a game. KF2 has that feeling for sure, always has!

That kind of feeling is like a spark, it's like a catalyst for another level of game that some of the bigger games companies seem to overlook or take for granted.

My point is I am glad to see Munk's spirit is still going strong and I hope spirits are similarly high around the office! It's a great thing to enjoy your work and feel a connection to what you're building, and it certainly comes across.

So whatever direction is taken I know one thing that KF2 will benefit from; the passion of the developers! As long as TW continue to develop what they want to and that passion isn't lost from (for example) some kind of major revamp which makes them feel distant from the original vision, I think it'll turn out great.

Sure the community has to be heard regarding the game but never forget there are 2 parties who like this game, us and TW, and after all this they should be able to sit down and actually enjoy what they created too!

 

[eckojay]

Sure man! Post here or pm me

Aside from some of the suggestions I offered in my post I know there are quite a few other the community have been quite interested in.


Things like the fleshpound audio rework have been highly sought after, making him sound more mechanical and robotic rather than just grunting and roaring.


Another thing people have been itching for is either a numerical command menu similar to kf1 or at the very least additional options such as telling people to "Run" or say "Thanks" <-Super important.


While agree the zed attack and dynamic death animations are incredible, I think it would be possible to take it a few steps further. Have you guys ever considered contextual death animations to make team mates dying more impactful than simply comically seeing them ragdoll? I suppose this would be the only one that could be considered "upping the ante"


The ideas and suggestions forum is jammed full of (mostly) good ideas that I think would add quite a lot to the game.


Maybe we could see some more polls with options for what Tripwire are considering for the future and which ones resonate best with the community?

 

[juliex011]

I'm sorry, but there's always going to be the people out there who just want to win at all costs, and they try to get it perfect every time and tell others how to play and yell at the team and call them idiots and blah blah blah.
This isn't the fun of KF2 to me. I like winning but sometimes it's just fun to hang out and play and have fun. I guess that's what I like about this game over a lot of other ones.
Yeah, it's got to be hard to design a game that everyone has expectations of. It's probably much easier to start fresh! But I can confirm that this game is much more welcoming to new players than the first, which seems like you hit that goal right on the mark. So good job with that
I still love playing and I still think it's fun. I'm not one of those players who thinks it's too easy. HoE is still freakin' hard for me! But then again, I'm not meticulous in my playing, so I guess that's just how it goes.

 

[clconx]

In my opinion KF2 actually is good, but not so good as KF1.
Better animations/collision are good, but not means more funny game.

KF1 map design is still far far far far better than KF2. Why?
- Little maps, large maps, indoor, outdoor, morning, night, multiple floors. Maps that have not been designated necessarily to trap the player (This is your "obsession" in KF2, dev).
Sci-fi vs horror atmosphere? I prefer horror.

In KF1 you feel more powerful, but at the same time more vulnerable.
At Hoe if you are good, is all ok (not always of course), but if you make a little mistake, you are dead quickly.

In KF2 to raise the difficulty you have increased Zed resistance, but player feel less powerful, and this is bad.
I always think to support. It was my fav. perk in KF1. Powerful and versatile.
And now? Boomstick is a toy and you need to aim to the head to deal some damage. The head, with support!!!
Every perk in his own way want to be powerful. Make Zed spongy is the opposite of KF1 philosopy.


Remove FP stun by SS. Only Demo with dynamite can stun FP (for longer time than now). FP should deal more damage and rages only if hit or see the player for x seconds. We need precise rules, because randomness is not funny.

There would be many other things to say (the shop, characters, insult players, deadly but less spongy bosses, more versatile weapons...) but now I have to go play

 

[DirtySpartan]

Your enthusiasm is appreciated and KF2 has great potential. As long as you steer clear of any more anti-player/anti-consumer stuff things should turn out alright.

Also remember that almost every person writing negative things wants the game to improve and succeed.

 

[silverlighted]

In my mind Killing Floor has always been a simple game. In all the hundreds of hours I played kf1 I never knew of resistances or payed much mind to the optimal strategy. I felt as though there was no need to think about what weapon counters what. I just picked a gun I thought was cool and killed **** with it.

I never considered recognition an issue in KF1, since it was sufficiently simple, most oddities or exceptions were learned over time and the under-the-hood data wasn't necessary to function. As time went on it became slightly noticeable because of perk changes, new weapons etc but it never was obligatory to figure out how to at least play the game outside HoE. Now enter KF2 resistances initial introduction and there is tons of under-the-hood information, not mentioned anywhere in-game let alone elsewhere, no easy testing\training mode with easily setup and repeatable situations for data gathering or anything comparable to try out if something was changed aside from "Why the **** is weapon x and z so pathetic and\or random?" because really, how on earth could anyone know without extracting files and ruffling through the code?

I've been seeing these sentiments on these threads. I always felt these same feelings...but about KF1. There are so many things in KF1 that was under the hood, that I had to explore online, and even explain to friends and strangers in pub matches.

How could you possibly know that a fp was weak to explosives. That a scrake was resist

 

[Ryno5660]

I can agree with that, it's something I slightly regret about my reaction to 1035 - focusing on spreadsheets and such. As Munk said I believe, it may have been better to approach it from the angle of just getting stuck in and seeing what is actually possible.

I think a big part of that whole debacle was the fact that with such a change, many year-long players (myself included) felt like what they'd learned previous to that was scrapped and they had to re-learn how to engage each enemy. More of a shock than anything.

Either way, those resistance numbers themselves were indeed quite extreme - Has anyone else noticed the 0.1 difference in things? Like a 0.9 resistance vs. a 0.8 resistance, it's actually quite the difference. However I don't at all oppose the idea of some stuff surviving an explosion, couple more bullets for this enemy, bit more fire for that one and so on. Honestly I actually think it's a great idea, but the values need to be closer to 0.1 differences I think. Smaller differences between them, as 0.1 is actually noticeable!

 

[macready84464]

I can see the dilemma that TWI has been faced with making kf2 more than just an updated kf1 and experimentation and risks are a part of finding that happy place. I think the reason people were so outraged by the resistance changes were simply because it was so jarring to every perk but mostly it was assumed it was going to take months to see any changes on it bringing it more to a balanced state. I'm glad to see it was scaled back days later. I have a lot of respect for TWI now that after the introduction of a new system they promptly responded. Whether the response to the outcry was a good thing or not it's good to see the devs are paying attention. I can see the resistance system being useful in the future but I think the community wants to see major changes like this in small increments. Just my two cents.

 

[hal-]

I think one of the biggest problems with the resistance update -- besides being unnecessarily complex -- was that the intent didn't really come across. Simply saying, "hey, we are trying to make the Stalker into a bit more of a threat" would have probably helped more people understand. Instead, we were all stuck staring at a spreadsheet of resistances, trying to piece together what we'd need to do to kill stuff we've been killing for years.

And maybe the other bit of enlightenment that can come from that update is that it was simply too much too fast. Big changes like that take some time to digest.