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The State of Balance in Killing Floor
- Thread starter Hedon
- Start date
Fixing the game is more work but is what needs to be done, not half-assing by fixing one class.
All the classes are usable in the current state support is just the easiest to use. i do just as well with the other classes as i do with support
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strange, i find i play better as a commando with bullpup, as i can use semi auto or lever action rifle for distant targets, then switch to full auto bullpup for mowing down groups of clots.
it may not be as specialised as the other classes, but i reckon its the most balanced one out there which suits my game play perfectly
it may not be as specialised as the other classes, but i reckon its the most balanced one out there which suits my game play perfectly
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Yes, all the classes need work. But the quickest and easiest fix to game balance is simply reducing the power of the Support specialist. I'm not saying they should ONLY fix the Support Specialist, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with a long, drawn out post discussing the problems with the other ones.
And some of us are entirely fine playing a class that's not Support Specialist on Suicidal. Because you don't need to be one to play on Suicidal, it just makes everyone's lives easier. Too much easier.
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Play on hard and you will run out of rifle ammo very quickly or normal in the later waves.
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Well even if that was the only way the health bars help (which it isn't, it depends how you play) - it is still well worth it. It doesn't matter if commando's don't have the tools to deal with the FP, since its a team game we always ask our Commando teammate what the health is at as we are making decisions.
Health bars are well worth it, maybe you just aren't taking advantage of them or maybe you are just playing pubs.
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Some people seem to think that all classes should be the same and do the same damage - if you don't find the commando useful and think that support is better since you can do more damage, then maybe you are better off playing support.
I would rather have the classes as they are with different perks and abilities, instead of all classes doing the same damage but with different guns which makes the whole idea of classes rather pointless.
I would rather have the classes as they are with different perks and abilities, instead of all classes doing the same damage but with different guns which makes the whole idea of classes rather pointless.
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Imo nothing needs to be changed. After all, it is a multiplayer-game where you gotta help each other. Thats probaly why perks are weak in some parts, and stronger in other. If people would care to help each other, you could "easily" take down a Fleshpound og Patriach.
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Sorry but a perk that is already pretty inferior to others having a benefit useful for only 1 foe?
"Guys, did you know the Patriarch is on 1/4 hp..."
"Who gives a **** we're gonna shoot him whatever his hp is!"
Its only single use is a Fleshpounder if your team is taking the 'whittle it down slowly while backpeddling' approach as oppose to the 'throw lots of grenades at it then everyone shoot it' approach.
If EVERYONE could see Stalkers and EVERYONE could see health bars of the things your in range of... then maybe they could have some benefit. But as it stands, the Bullpup needs more ammo.
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Hrmn, yes.
Berserker - Weak against Fleshpounders, Patriarch,Crawlers (sort of)Commando - Weak against Scrakes, Fleshpounders, Patriarch
Medic - Weak against nothing, excels against nothing
Sharpshooter - Great against everything, weak in close quarters
Firebug - Not great against anything but the patriarch
Support - Not weak against anything ever
One of these things is not like the other....
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Like I said before, it's not like it can be pointed out that these can be styles of play people believe are majorly better for them when the circumstances are that support excels majorly all, if not a few minor situations that can be overcome too easily with the double shotgun combination. While some of the other classes suffer from things that are kill worthy like burning themselves alive in range, not having great efficiency on the amount of ammo they use, running out of ammo on their weapons, being chopped liver at close the support perk practically almost has none. If one perk is just too ridiculously better than the other perks. Like handling most situations, handling them better than others when they obviously shouldn't, then this subject will never come down to style of play like you seem to believe.
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Maybe you don't play on hard or suicidal, but we find it very useful. Knowing that a FP only has 1/4 health can be very useful, it means you don't need to focus fire to bring him down and the rest of the team can deal with the rest of the horde while someone finishes him off. It is also useful against the patriarch and all mobs in certain situations.
I wouldn't mind if everyone in the vicinity was able to see health and stalkers, it might make them more useful in a pub game where people don't really play well as a team.
At the end of the day if you don't like the class perks maybe you should play a different class. We play with one support, sharpshooter, commando and beserker and everyone is happy enough with their classes.
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This. I play 5 zerker with a 5 medic and 5 support, and while the support excels if we're camping a choke point, out in the open even though he's a good player, zerker and medic can out survive and outkill him. We have a 4 sharpshooter who can do some nasty damage with a crossbow in a choke situation also, and commando.. honestly he just kills crawlers to relieve some pressure. Firebug? Whats that? Point is we all enjoy how we play and as a team it's balanced. At no point do I or the others say "**** sake why is support so strong" or anything similar; a team of 6 supports could probably rip suicidal, but 6 medics could survive just as well but have to use different tactics. In a non pvp game, why does 1 class being higher burst mean it has to be changed? Use that to your TEAMS advantage, or start crying that the support got more kills than you and start playing it.
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Not to judge the situation, but from what you are saying I can take a wild guess he has the duty of taking the crawlers out which is certainly the thing perks like zerker, sharpshooter can have some trouble with. If you have someone assigned to certain, specific enemies specially crawlers and keeping watch out on them, they are obivously not going to be the mass killer of the group. It will make their kills drop because they are not just trying to kill things out of the blue. Not that it should hurt the validity of your point because certainly the more you assign people to specific duties, the more you drown out the specific perk imbalances because it won't mean much after you survive a level.
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Clearly the entire point of this thread is the Firebug needs a level 5 perk that makes everything from his Knife to his LAW do fire damage.
And I wholeheartedly agree.
Also it looks like he may have mentioned the other Classes but as I don't play as them...
And I wholeheartedly agree.
Also it looks like he may have mentioned the other Classes but as I don't play as them...
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I don't see why the killscore matters so much, support uses shotguns and has a big spread that will get more enemies at once, other weapons are more accurate so might not. The fact that you can share money makes the kill count pretty meaningless.
If people are worrying about statistics, I think there needs to be more statistics added including:
- Headshot count
- Amount healed
- Amount welded
- Assists
It is a team game and as long the enemy ends up all dead that is fine by me, but I understand some people like stats so maybe we just need more of them to show where some classes are stronger than others.
As a side note, doesn't commando also get faster reloading on ALL weapons? This is a pretty big benefit as well, normally when I die it is because I am reloading.
If people are worrying about statistics, I think there needs to be more statistics added including:
- Headshot count
- Amount healed
- Amount welded
- Assists
It is a team game and as long the enemy ends up all dead that is fine by me, but I understand some people like stats so maybe we just need more of them to show where some classes are stronger than others.
As a side note, doesn't commando also get faster reloading on ALL weapons? This is a pretty big benefit as well, normally when I die it is because I am reloading.
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Killcounts matter because despite this being a "Co-Operative" game, it's still a contest to alot of people to see who can top the charts. Furthermor, Specialists being overpowered is not only messing with that little side competition, but making the game significantly easier.
Some people play for the challenge. Others play Support.
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Well like I said, for those (shallow) people the current system will never work - this has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the system. The only way stats can work in a game with classes is to have something like TF2, which takes healing and everything else into account for your score.
This game is great because the classes actually are different, if you go ahead and make them all the same damage output etc, then the game really loses one of the key features and it will become a stock standard FPS.
Changing the balance of the classes won't fix the problem, because it is not the real problem - you need to change the scoring system.
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Except the classes already are basically the same in ONE regard, they all get more damage based on a key weapon. One of them just happens to have the strongest weapon group as their favored weapon.
What seperates the classes, truly? They ALL have damage bonuses, so that can't be what seperates them. Let's see the key components that have nothing to do with damage based on weapon, or discounts.
Commando - Sees invisible things and reloads fast
Firebug - Nothing actually "Unique" except flaming grenades
Berserker - Melees Faster, Runs Faster, Takes less damage, Less Bloat Damage
Medic - Runs faster, Better Body Armor, Heals Faster and for more, Less Bloat damage
Sharpshooter - Headshot Bonus.
Support - Ammo bonus, Carrying Bonus, Grenade Damage bonus, Grenade Carrying bonus, Welding Bonus, Piercing Bonus.
Hrmn. Seems pretty unique to me without any mention of Weapon based damage. So if we edit weapon based damage...who cares? They still retain their flavor. What if we take the piercing bonus off of Support? Still pretty damn unique. What if we take the ammo bonus from Support? Still unique.
Nobody is saying we should destroy the flavor of the different classes. We can change things without it resulting in that.
What seperates the classes, truly? They ALL have damage bonuses, so that can't be what seperates them. Let's see the key components that have nothing to do with damage based on weapon, or discounts.
Commando - Sees invisible things and reloads fast
Firebug - Nothing actually "Unique" except flaming grenades
Berserker - Melees Faster, Runs Faster, Takes less damage, Less Bloat Damage
Medic - Runs faster, Better Body Armor, Heals Faster and for more, Less Bloat damage
Sharpshooter - Headshot Bonus.
Support - Ammo bonus, Carrying Bonus, Grenade Damage bonus, Grenade Carrying bonus, Welding Bonus, Piercing Bonus.
Hrmn. Seems pretty unique to me without any mention of Weapon based damage. So if we edit weapon based damage...who cares? They still retain their flavor. What if we take the piercing bonus off of Support? Still pretty damn unique. What if we take the ammo bonus from Support? Still unique.
Nobody is saying we should destroy the flavor of the different classes. We can change things without it resulting in that.
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Actually some people have said they would like to remove the health bar thing all together, which is the main point I am arguing about - I honestly don't even care if you give the bullpup more damage, I just don't want to lose abilities like health bars or see invisibles.
Even rather than increasing damage on the bp, you could add something like extra ammo instead, this combined with a quick reload will result in more damage over time anyway.
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