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The Role of Snipers... In Stalingrad.

It is purely incidental that some of the methods of "automatic" cycling of cartridges affect the actual operation of the firing mechanism, and none of them aid in delivery or accuracy.

Now let me ask a question: do you expect average rifleman to be able to shoot highly accurate shots beyond 300 yards? Accuracy diffrence under 250 yards between semiauto and bolt is quite nonexistant, as you can shoot mansized target with ease more or less. I am fully aware that the germans actually put some emphasis to train their riflemen to be able to shoot as accurately as possible (atleast initially), but considering all possible variables in a firefight, having a semiauto is more of an advatange at regular ranges you expect you to engage the enemy.

but they are utterly fantastic weapons when all you need is to hit the target and watch him fall over dead in the first shot.

As much as accurate firepower is important, if we make a comparasion E.G. Garand and K98k in terms of effective range, Mauser having about 100 yards longer effective range can't be really put into use properly unless you have heavily open area or really tall building to shoot from.

Again, it's relative to what. Bolt action is still probably the best if you really want accurate shots, but for regular engagement range what you can expect from regular E.G. division to engage most of the time, semiautomatic rifle tops bolt action and assault rifle tops semiautomatic, until you go to DMR ranges where semiautos might be beter than assault rifles and until we go to long range sniping where bolt actions tends to be hell of alot more efficient.

Unless the gun is less accurate than a handgun with a broken barrel, for your regular 300 yards and under engagement accuracy becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Or perhaps you could simply play Ost Front's sniper role equipped with an SVT-40 or a G-43 and notice the gargantuan spread of both rifles, particularly when compared to old reliable, the MN91/30 and Kar98k.

Red Orchestra - as realistic as it is - is still more or less balanced in terms of firefights, such as you can't hit broad side of a barn with an SMG unless you're support your gun and fire single shots under 70 yards, so I wouldn't really use it as proper comparasion material.

SVT-40 was issued in limited numbers to Strelok in World War 2 as a result of its complicated operation and difficult maintenance.

It's the same with any sort of military eguipment, how long it took E.G. P-38 aircraft to reach true maturity before they honed down all the bugs? It didn't happen overnight at all, and especially if you have already well established organisation or system (E.G. germans and their MG priority fetish in riflesquads during WW2, to the point post 1941 and 1942 training manuls ceased to make any sort of distinguishion between an MG team and a riflesquad), it takes more effort to replace it with something else or modify it in the first place, and even when it happens it still takes time before it is actually done.

One reason both modern armies and resistance groups use these weapons is that they are incredibly utilitarian weapons with great versatility....

It's also supply and demand issue. You want X but you can't have it, so beter to have something at hand, and when it comes to armies even US national guard was still supplying WW2-era field gear and clothing back in the 1980s quite regularly, as old stocks are used as long as they are truly, truly obsolete or dried out.

I don't try to argue about bolt action rifle would be bad weapon in general or so, but it's more of a specialized weapon today for modern armies as you said yourself.
 
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VariousNames, he was talking about standard issue rifles. ;) Not sure why he would need to explain that though.

Thanks for pointing that out. He seems so intent on trying to call people out on stuff that he completely missed the point of my post. And that was, that (in italics once again so you don't miss it twice) for the role of the average infantry rifleman, ie. the backbone of your army, semi-automatics are superior for various reasons. Yes modern armies issue assault rifles, but in my understanding, at least in Western armies, these weapons are used primarily in the semi-automatic setting, with automatic/burst used in specific situations. In any case the benefits of an assualt rifle are very similar to a semi-auto (the assault rifle just has the added functionality of select fire), so that's irrelevent to what we're talking about here.
 
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In any case the benefits of an assualt rifle are very similar to a semi-auto (the assault rifle just has the added functionality of select fire), so that's irrelevent to what we're talking about here.

nit-pickity-pick :cool:

A semi automatic rifle with full auto/burst function is called a battlerifle. :p
Assault rifles normally use a intermediate cartridge on top of that.
 
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Thanks for pointing that out. He seems so intent on trying to call people out on stuff that he completely missed the point of my post. And that was, that (in italics once again so you don't miss it twice) for the role of the average infantry rifleman, ie. the backbone of your army, semi-automatics are superior for various reasons. Yes modern armies issue assault rifles, but in my understanding, at least in Western armies, these weapons are used primarily in the semi-automatic setting, with automatic/burst used in specific situations. In any case the benefits of an assualt rifle are very similar to a semi-auto (the assault rifle just has the added functionality of select fire), so that's irrelevent to what we're talking about here.

What we're talking about here is snipers.

If you went on a tangent that's fine too. 'Scuse me for presuming you were being topical.
 
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nit-pickity-pick :cool:

A semi automatic rifle with full auto/burst function is called a battlerifle. :p
Assault rifles normally use a intermediate cartridge on top of that.

The intermediate cartridge is the most important part.

NATO cartridges used in battle rifles are the same used in sniper rifles by NATO armies. 7.62x51mm NATO used in battle rifles carries 3352J, whereas 5.56 NATO carries roughly 1300J. That's a separation of nearly 2.6 times kinetic energy.

Kinetic energy obviously entails greater stopping power and more significant recoil.

You can actually control reasonably well an M16 in fully automatic, whereas a FN FAL in full auto is more or less useless in anything but desperate situations. Effectively the FN FAL uses a machine gun cartridge making it more or less a BAR in fully automatic, whereas the entire purpose for the development of intermediate cartridges was to make something that was, well, intermediate in range, ballistics, and controllability for....well, intermediate engagements.

I use these points to support the conclusion that it is not nit picky to say that there is a significant difference between a battle rifle and an assault rifle, something that extends beyond their form of internal operation.

And obviously the higher the caliber the more significant the recoil, meaning sustained rate of fire is difficult. The lower the caliber, however, the less reliable the penetration of heavy materials/body armor and the internal ballistics get less and less favorable, particularly over longer ranges. Obviously even the .223 has more than satisfactory ballistics beneath 300 meters, but then you have to consider the reports of it having insufficient stopping power and the fact of it having mediocre penetrative capacity.

But then again a semi automatic full rifle caliber weapon is heavy, with a long barrel, it's more or less as unwieldy as a bolt action rifle, or worse, and it has punishing recoil making sustained fire difficult.

All of these weapons have draw backs extending beyond their operation and I don't understand why we need to act like any of them are catch all "greater than"s.
 
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I believe the problem is this:

1. Initially discussion about role of snipers in Stalingrad, or how they would work in the game.
2. Discussion about sniper vs marksman.
3. Discussion about X's general accuracy for average production model and ammunition.
4. Comparasions of accuracy and questions behind that.
5. Related to accuracy and comparasion, general issue related discussion.
6. Rebuttal to earlier points said in the discussion.
7. More discussion about firearms and their roles relative to something.
8. Reminder that we're talking about sniper rifles.

It's safe to say that almost everyone (including me) is partly at fault for minor derailings in the thread. ;)
 
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id like to see the option of mounting different scopes in particular the ZF 41 scope. its a reduced eye relief scope that allows you to load faster using a stripper clip but doesn't give you as wide of a opticle view. in the game right now you have the option of having Model high, model low or textured. it might be worta like that. smaller scope with faster loading. or larger field of view but slower loading and less view around the scope.
 
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afaik the standard us body armour is designed to be able to take 7.62x39 from 50m upwards, and then i heard that dragonskin can take 7.62nato at 10m.

My Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert (ESAPI) plates are rated Level 4 and can stop 3 7.62x51mm NATO rounds at any range, although I wouldn't expect to live if I have a guy shooting at me within 10 meters anyway.

I did lol, good sir.

Anyway, on topic, I do believe that in RO:HoS, snipers will probably be presented as marksmen, not snipers. If it works anything like RO, then snipers will merely be support units that are directly attached to a platoon, not as actual snipers.

Yes this should be carried over from RO:Ost, the platoon on platoon combat is a staple of Red Orchestra.
 
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Snipers are not important. They have supportive role, just as mortars.

Contrary to popular believe due to FPS-games, snipers take up a minor role in infantry-tactics. Its hard to believe for so many kids that lift the sniper up high because they can own so good with it.

Believe it or not, in World War II, displacing machine gun nests was important.

Snipers are less important now because the modern army is more mobile as a result of being outfitted almost entirely with assault rifles. Also, trenches are gone, so far less static targets to plink away at with your rangefinder, spotter, sniper system, etc.

Snipers aren't all that much use in urban combat, either, due to the fact that their combat effectiveness versus other infantry types is maximized over 500m, which is difficult to obtain in a modern urban jungle. At the very least even if you obtain those distances the tunnel vision would kill you and open you up to serious flank maneuvers within a short amount of time.

But in my view it's unquestionable the designated marksman still has significant value. If you will, in the urban environment the role of sniper is more suitably adapted to with the designated marksman position.
 
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