Testing on RO2 accuracy rates: Findings and conclusions on sway, fatigue, and zoom

[MissionMaximus]

@Unus Offa, Unus Nex - MissionMaximus - MrGoat

Thanks for the kind words you guys. I hope the community likes my mod when it's done.

Definitely looking forward to it.

In regards to the Zoom feature when holding the shift button, I totally agree with your conclusion.
I remember people complaining on the Arma2 boards about it being unrealistic but after a BI developer came on & explained (still trying to find the exact post response by him, he explained it alot better than me.)
I remember him saying your playing a FPS (1stPerson) and you don't have a box on your head (your monitor) in real life so when you zoom that's what it would look like with the real human-eye looking at an object at a certain distance.
But if you played the game with the zoom on all the time you lose alot of perpetual awareness (you couldn't see anything in front/around you.)

 

[Getsome]

nice thread,thank you

 

[FBX]

I would like to point out that I made a proof of concept hl2 mod years ago that did the uncontrollable jerking you might get while holding a gun

Nauseating. Here it would just look funny no doubt.

One thing to point out is that low blood sugar would also give you the shakes. Certainly any time your bp goes up and you haven't eaten you will get uncontrollable shakes.

 

[ramBOB]

One thing to point out is that low blood sugar would also give you the shakes. Certainly any time your bp goes up and you haven't eaten you will get uncontrollable shakes.

.....Maybe you could make it so that you have to bring sweet snacks on to the battlefield to compensate for this, but if you eat too many you have to put down your gun and find a place to take a crap......

I think with the normal mouse and keyboard set-up there isn't really a good way to introduce the weapon sway without it simply making it an enforced disability for all and nothing really to do with skill.

The only way I could see it working would be if you had some way to control the way you support the gun with different keys for supporting it differently.... imagine playing QWOP but controlling your aim.....

But hell, I don't want to play a game like that

 

[Holy.Death]

gentrinity - What will be the name of your mod? Fire & Maneuver Realism Mod? I need to write it down to remember to try it out when you're done creating it.

 

[Das Bose]

You're basing your speed of aiming on a video with a guy doing some accuracy shooting? Of course he's going to take his time lining everything up. Here's a video of some mosin nagant speed shooting at what looks like approximately 100 meters. Ignore the malfunctions and focus on when he is shooting at speed. Look at how fast he's bringing up the gun and maintaining excellent ~90% accuracy. The video you originally posted would be shooting at a head at 230 yards. NOT a full silhouette target. Accuracy shooting is a completely different game from speed shooting.

Thanks for this. I have several friends in the military and they all agree that when the **** hits the fan, careful aiming is forgotten, or they would be dead.

No I'm not suggesting RO2 is perfect for gunplay, but it's a lot closer than ROOST.

 

[Inuki]

2 things

1) this is a game. We are not "Trained" soldiers. We are gamers. The broadness of skill when it comes to aiming is so small in Red Orchestra 2. Your either an okay shot or Mr Amazing shot. Moving a mouse over a target isn't the same as aiming a real weapon. This is why games off-set this by using things such as bullet spread, recoil and weapon sway.

2) In a real situation it wouldn't be 32v32. You would have plenty to shoot and large scale tactics in place as you try to take an area. Red Orchestra feels completely empty because out of the 64 players nobody wants to take any chance of popping their head out to have a look if anyone is around. Funnily enough though there isn't anyone around because they are all busy hiding.

This is why firefights never get to the stage where it's prolonged over a few minutes hell even 5 seconds would be good for RO2 to reach right now.

 

[Floyd]

Thanks for this. I have several friends in the military and they all agree that when the **** hits the fan, careful aiming is forgotten, or they would be dead.

No I'm not suggesting RO2 is perfect for gunplay, but it's a lot closer than ROOST.

And you're concurring the 90% accuracy of the shooter in the video?
By my count its >50% at >100m, not ~90% at 100m. My impression was that the poster was showing how accurate one can be firing rapidly. (of course that using that video for and example negates the fact that in combat he wouldn't have been standing upright in full view of an enemy that is returning fire........and at a stationary target at that).



Out of curiosity, in you opinion, how is RO2 better than ROOST with respect to gunplay?

 

[gentrinity]

@Inuki

Firefights will be prolonged with my mod. It doesn't have to do as much with what you say. Hell, I can have super long firefights against just one person, provided that the mechanics are there. In Darkest Hour, that small addition of aim-snapping when suppressed really impacted gameplay in a huge way, because as long as you just returned fire and weren't always concerned about getting that killing shot, you could get into some amazing firefights with the M1 Garand, or any other semi-auto for that matter. As it is right now, there really isn't an exchange of bullets, it's more about trying to make sure that any shot you fire is a killing shot.

@Floyd

Yeah, I don't see it. You were spot on when you noticed that he wasn't even near 90% accurate, nor was it 100 meters, more like 60 meters max. Speed shooting won't be an issue, people can pull it off, but as it is in Red Orchestra 2, if you practice hard at it, you will eventually become a twitch shooter. In my mod, you would become an experienced marksman. The difference is in the rate of accuracy, which we just saw, tends to be around 50% at 60 meters.

 

[Das Bose]

And you're concurring the 90% accuracy of the shooter in the video?
By my count its >50% at >100m, not ~90% at 100m. My impression was that the poster was showing how accurate one can be firing rapidly. (of course that using that video for and example negates the fact that in combat he wouldn't have been standing upright in full view of an enemy that is returning fire........and at a stationary target at that).



Out of curiosity, in you opinion, how is RO2 better than ROOST with respect to gunplay?

I haven't said anything about 90% accuracy, but I can see from the clip up there that the guy is putting the shots very close, very quickly ( ignoring malfunctions ).

Whatever the case, it's far quicker than i make my shots in ROHOS, so he could slow down, increase his accuracy and still be quicker/the same speed as ingame.

Talk to some people who shoot at other people for a living and let them play ROOST and ROHOS. Ask them which is closer to reality and why.

I have several friends that played ROOST and about 70% prefer the gunplay in ROHOS, and agree as I do that it's far too difficult to accurately tell what actually may need tweaking atm due to the bugs, stat system irregularities, missing features and performance issues some people are suffering from.

All of us enjoy playing ROHOS and enjoy the satisfaction of being in control of our weapons rather than the other way around. I did play the RO mod and then ROOST, DH e.t.c for many years and really enjoyed them, but always hoped that the next installment of RO would be closer to the original mod, and imho it is!

I'm not saying I'm right and anyone who disagrees is wrong either, this is simply my opinion, which is shared by a lot of others I have seen on here and/or talked to ingame.

However, even after saying all that I feel that ROHOS would benefit from an initial increase in sway when entering iron sights and stamina is low, or when transitioning from a run to an aimed shot.

Otherwise it feels pretty good to me, minus any bugs

 

[hanky]

Although I'm a little annoyed about people posting youtube videos as evidence Ill concur with this one.

Did 4 years in the army, 1 15 month deployment so there's my "degree" in solidering

I also own a k98 (sitting next to me)

If you guys want ill strap my camera to the sights and hold it to show you the sway while standing.

Without being tired the sway is pretty close to how it is.

While running around, I can't hold rifle straight for krap. Sway is all over the place. Even while I was in shape in the army I would have added sway to holding the rifle after running. But the weight excuse is the same (I had m4 with 203 on bottom so it wasn't that light)

Truth is, realism NO! Game play YES! Makes since. Attackers already have a disadvantage and already loose most the maps.

Add sway to running players realistic = NIGHTMARE!

Increase it a NOTCH and maybe we can all be happy.

Just to show you what REALISM is maybe next time I go to my ranch I'll run a mile before I shoot. Ill put the camera on the gun (have contour hd ) and ill show you how much sway there can be after a sprint.

Its ALOT! And I'm not bad with a rifle.

 

[Das Bose]

Exactly, you are saying the same thing as my m8's in the forces. It's about right, but it needs more sway/movement when stamina is low

Would be interesting to see a vid of you doing that. Don't run a mile though, just some quick short runs like ingame.

While I'm typing , what do you think to the current transition speed from running to stationary aimed shot? Obviously it needs more sway to simulate the panting e.t.c, but ignoring that, do you think the speed is about right or too quick/slow, and if so by how much?

Just curious

 

[hanky]

Well I'm sure you know everything slows down when your tired.

The thing about sights is you have to line them up, while your running and moving around you loose your "SPOT" would you on your shoulder. So it takes a little while to line the sights back up.

So a average person would bring the sights up ( probably a tad bit slower than in game) But the person with more experience would take a shorter time lining the sights up.

But realistically speaking, yeah it takes longer to bring sights up. Probably 1-3 more seconds longer.

But for gameplay...IDK man really love the game right now. Hate to say its broken.

 

[Das Bose]

Yeah you are sort of in agreement. They also said some would be quicker and some slower but in general it should be a little slower for the rifles and also the smg's, but not as much as the rifles because they are a good deal shorter and easier to control.

We kind of generally agree that maybe an extra quarter to half a second would add to realism and not hurt/alter gameplay too much, and of course only on the realism servers.


Edit: Another idea was to add a second or so and let people slowly reduce it incrementally by up 50% as they level up with each weapon.

 

[mechtech]

A agree with your argument, and I think the solution is more sway, but it's important to keep the following in mind. The sway shouldn't be "drunk sway". In real life sway has weight, and it's almost predictable. If sway is to be increased, the way that sway is represented needs to be redone.

Does anyone remember sniping in Call of Duty 1? That's the best sway that I can remember. The pattern sort of follows a figure-8, which is how a weapon sways in real life as you lightly adjust from one side to the other.

Think about shooting in real life. You pull the trigger in your mind before you actually move your finger. It's subconsciously a predictive motion. On the other hand, unpredictable drunk sway is just annoying.

 

[MikkOwl]

The game won't change drastically if there is sway and more definite sway, when low fatigue, suppressed, wounded etc. You can still hit things at all kinds of ranges - it is just that it will demand a bit more work & skill from the player to pull off the shots. Having to wait between shots, letting the sights wander over the target - things that should probably always be a major part anyway in marksmanship.

Btw, I noticed that when sprinting around with the MP40, then suddenly coming to a halt and pressing the ironsights button, the thing flies up centered, zoomed in, rock steady, instantaneously. I mean, it goes really way faster than any other circumstances in the game, as if bugged. It looks almost like flipping a switch-fast. Try it compared to laying prone or standing around normally.

 

[ymirix]

I think I'll be laying off RO2 until a good mod like this comes out!

 

[hanky]

Yeah the full sprint to aim is way to fast, ill agree there.

Have to take into consideration:

1) Your running full sprint, so you have to stop. (if you dont stop add even more time)

2) While sprinting your weapon is lowered even further so takes even longer to raise than if it was already in shoulder.

 

[gentrinity]

@hanky

Not everyone is as lucky as you to get the chance to server or own firearms. I was turned down by every branch of the military because of a physical defect and currently don't have any money to invest in weapons. Forgive me if I do my research otherwise.

You're still missing the point. You can control your aim because you are trained. I don't want to introduce jerky drunk sway that no one can manage, I want to introduce sway that will replicate how it is now only when in the hands of experienced and trained RO2 players. If you want to aim the way you're aiming right now in RO2, just train and play, you will learn to control the motions. That's my goal.

@mechtech

Exactly, it should be controllable.

 

[gentrinity]

I haven't said anything about 90% accuracy, but I can see from the clip up there that the guy is putting the shots very close, very quickly ( ignoring malfunctions ).

Whatever the case, it's far quicker than i make my shots in ROHOS, so he could slow down, increase his accuracy and still be quicker/the same speed as ingame.

Talk to some people who shoot at other people for a living and let them play ROOST and ROHOS. Ask them which is closer to reality and why.

I have several friends that played ROOST and about 70% prefer the gunplay in ROHOS, and agree as I do that it's far too difficult to accurately tell what actually may need tweaking atm due to the bugs, stat system irregularities, missing features and performance issues some people are suffering from.

All of us enjoy playing ROHOS and enjoy the satisfaction of being in control of our weapons rather than the other way around. I did play the RO mod and then ROOST, DH e.t.c for many years and really enjoyed them, but always hoped that the next installment of RO would be closer to the original mod, and imho it is!

I'm not saying I'm right and anyone who disagrees is wrong either, this is simply my opinion, which is shared by a lot of others I have seen on here and/or talked to ingame.

However, even after saying all that I feel that ROHOS would benefit from an initial increase in sway when entering iron sights and stamina is low, or when transitioning from a run to an aimed shot.

Otherwise it feels pretty good to me, minus any bugs

What the guy is doing does in no way compare to what I'm doing in my tests in RO2. Less than 50% accuracy at 60 yards in 1-2 seconds for him. I was getting 90% accuracy at 230 yards in 2-3 seconds. How does that even compare? Something is obviously wrong here, no?