Rough outline for -REALISM MODE-

[smokeythebear]

I'm happy that Tripwire included the option for them to work on gameplay changes as they continue to support RO2. If they do indeed work on this (and with the poll results I cant imagine the would not) it is still very ambiguous what needs to be changed and how and even how far Tripwire is willing to go.

Before getting into details I think it's very important that the changes are almost radical to what we have now. The reason being twofold; first many people were anticipating RO2 and second a large portion of those people were very disappointed with the game. So much so that it will take a dramatic change in the game to coax them back rather then small tweaks. I'm not as sensitive to think that RO2 needs a 're release' type patch but the game did leave a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.

Note I mashed the two realism options in the poll together because I feel they are one and the same. Bold are the changes and below each change are detailed notes.

REALISM MODE

Progression - disabled

Unlocks - disabled
* Marksmen given both options of semi & bolt rifles with most common scope for each (ie no useless scout optics)
* 1 Elite automatic class for each side (mkb and avt)
* Riflemen given bayonet with option to detach ingame
* Squad leaders and commanders given option for pistol loadouts
* Pistol unlock kits disabled (silencer & auto c96)
* most common MG34 ammo kit given (50 round drum?)
* PPsH given round drum as default

Weapon Sway - Increased by factors which may stack together
*large increase for being low on stanima (negated by prone or weapon resting)
* Large increase for being shot recently
* Medium increase for being recently suppressed
* Small increase for standing and crouching (ie the base sway should be increased but not when prone)

Suppression - Effect increased
* Base suppression effect unchanged
* Lose more control when stanima and/or morale is low
* Lose more control when recently hit
* Lose more control when under sustained fire (ie a machine gunner using an entire clip rather then a burst)
Aim Down Sights - Speed slowed
*Base speed slower
*Slightly slowed with recent stance change
*Slightly slowed when low on stanima or suppressed
Grenades - Lethal radius rather then Hit point damage
*It's very common to see people physically bounce from grenades exploding under them and see them continue to run unneffected. Also common is if 'low health' to be killed by a grenade a very far distance away.

On hit effects added - Legs, Hands and arms
* Possible to have weapon shot out of hand
* When sprinting and shot in the legs, stanima is depleted and character automatically falls to prone (I felt in RO1 it was odd to see bullets almost stun characters and this way their forward momentum goes somewhere, besides in RO1 if shot in the legs the first impulse was to go prone)
* Harder to control recoil/sway when shot in arms
* Stamina depletes much faster when shot in legs

Run/Sprint speed - Unchanged
* I feel the default 'level 1' speed is actually fine. It only becomes ridiculous with hero level assaults. Like I stated above I hope realism mode has no progression system.

Lockdown - Removed
* Honestly I don't think this change is controversial in the slightest.

Light MGs - Hipfire and deployed tweaks
* Must use IS key to bring the weapon to a fire ready state when not deployed
* More freedom of movement when deployed. Using the MG while prone on even the slightest slope is far too unforgiving. The same can be said of aiming left and right when on a ledge.

SMGs - Unrested accuracy tweak
* When unrested sights are never quite perfect to be accurate at 60+ meters ('smg sniping' still possible, just not quite as ridiculous as RO2s mp40 sniping without exaggerating recoil or cone of fire like RO1. As trivial as it sounds it actually has a huge impact on gameplay)

Weapon Zoom - Decreased effect
* As it is it's a strange conflict of realism in individuals senses and realism in a firefight scenario. I feel though the science behind it as the devs have shown is solid enough. However it detracts from gameplay when everyone is playing the part of the marksman, including the assault classes.


This list is still a WIP. If anyone has suggestions I'll be happy to add them.

 

[Nezzer]

Perfect wishlist is perfect. I agree with every single aspect. +:IS2: for you good sir.

 

[Bashenka]

+1

Agreed on most points except for 2.

- I say keep progression, and unlocks. These are fun for a lot of people (myself included) and the difference between ranked skins really heightens immersion. I personnally don't care for all the non-cosmetic bonuses to rank, however (run speed, ADS, etc) and wouldn't mind seeing that part of progression go.

-Also please please please don't make grenades any more lethal! Grenades are finally much less spammed than RO1, so please don't give people more excuses to start up again. Plus the 1st and 3rd person animations look cool when you get blown back.

My 2 cents.

 

[SQBsam]

I think aesthetic unlocks, like (a choice of) cleaner weapons or different uniforms (such that an advanced player can blend into environments slightly better than default, emphasis on *slightly*), apart from that, yes, I completely agree. Your points just sound like the difference between ROost and RO2, and that's a good thing.

 

[Proud_God]

Agreed on all of that, also on the removal of progression, however, I think it's important to note that not everything should be at level 0 stats. For example, lmg deployed recoil should be at lvl50.

Also:
- iron sights are shortly misallignend when switching between crouched and standing, and when switching between normal and leaned stance.

 

[Andrew Blake]

+1

Agreed on most points except for 2.

- I say keep progression, and unlocks. These are fun for a lot of people (myself included) and the difference between ranked skins really heightens immersion. I personnally don't care for all the non-cosmetic bonuses to rank, however (run speed, ADS, etc) and wouldn't mind seeing that part of progression go.

-Also please please please don't make grenades any more lethal! Grenades are finally much less spammed than RO1, so please don't give people more excuses to start up again. Plus the 1st and 3rd person animations look cool when you get blown back.

My 2 cents.

I don't want to keep the progression and unlocks, they encurages bad gameplay. They make you want points and kills, rather than teamplay and objektive play.
But I guess if keep the small upgrades (k98k remove hood) and the cosmetic ones, (Just the kill related) wouldn't disrupt gameplay. As no one truly cares for them.
As for for lvl up to 99 Don't really care for it....

Op: I would be nice if you could add:
-To choose between stick mags, and drums mags for the ppsh41. And you should also be able to use fire switch from the start.
- As we remove semi rifles upgrade from squad leader and commander, Sometimes It's much more practical to use a bolt rifle rather than a smg, So having an option for it on larger maps would be nice. I think some of the community maps you could do that in ROOST.

Other than that perfect wishlist OP

 

[>< f4ct0r...13]

Excellent list, and truly needed.

But...why hide the real stuff? Get out of the box, but stay in context. *ORIGINAL* gameplay improvements based on WW2 Combat and presented in a way that is authentic (no flashing lights), in combination with authentic abilities, supported by loyal fanbase, would turn the gaming world on its head.



13lack Cat

 

[Private Who?]

man that's just about as comprehensive a list as I could possibly think of myself. nice.

 

[Cyper]

From all the stupid things that have been added in the game lockdowntimer and silenced weapons must win the prize. I don't really see why it would be usefull to run around with silenced weapons at the current maps.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Hmm perhaps the German team could choose a 50 Rnd MG 34 or a 250 Rnd belt MG 34. Or get one or the other depending on whether they are attacking or defending.

Also the MG recoil and such will need a rework for the realism mode, the jumping up and all over the place stuff is ridiculous.


EDIT:

Also please add a section for Inertia. Both in the time it takes to stop running, and the time it takes to raise a weapon and properly shoulder and aim down the sights. ( Raising can be rather quick, but getting the sights lined up perfectly should take some extra time )

 

[Nikita]

Great list in general!

However, I would without question keep honor and class progression, as that actually encourages teamplay. Both are based upon team points as well as personal performance. This I think is essential to promote proper use of each class. The bonuses (stamina resistance, etc) can go, but the cosmetic differences and some of the benefits (better pistols for MGs, commanders, SLs, AT troops, snipers) should stick around.

On the Elite Automatic class--I would say that people should have to work for those weapons--I don't want to see them in the hands of anyone but the highest-ranked Hero, if even that. There shouldn't be an open class for a weapon like that in my opinion.

Also not so sure about getting weapons shot out of your hands--griefing by doing that to one's teammates was a very annoying feature of Ostfront. At least picking up weapons from the ground is easier, though.

Finally, on SMGs--just give the MP40 and Mkb a slight recoil tweak. There's no need to introduce arbitrary inaccuracy to iron sights that by all rights should be perfectly aligned, and in single shots the MP40 was quite accurate out to 50 yards. The recoil from each shot, however, scarcely causes the barrel to budge. With greater sway, much of the problem will be alleviated already, at any rate.

A few additions:
--full suppression when hit by an enemy bullet.
--Decreased zoom by at least a factor of 1/3 to 1/2. It's far too easy to pick out a concealed enemy at long range with the current Shift-zoom.

The rest of the list is a great compilation of positive additions, though! Let's not get too pumped up--a lot of this stuff would require quite a bit of work to execute believably (like wound effects), even if some other factors can be tweaked by changing a few parameters. Everything has to be tested. I eagerly away any of these gameplay changes, however.

 

[Andrew Blake]

Hmm perhaps the German team could choose a 50 Rnd MG 34 or a 250 Rnd belt MG 34. Or get one or the other depending on whether they are attacking or defending.

Also the MG recoil and such will need a rework for the realism mode, the jumping up and all over the place stuff is ridiculous.


EDIT:

Also please add a section for Inertia. Both in the time it takes to stop running, and the time it takes to raise a weapon and properly shoulder and aim down the sights. ( Raising can be rather quick, but getting the sights lined up perfectly should take some extra time )

Regarding the mg34, the issue isn't if the player is attacking or defending, rather the size of the map. You run far to slow and have too little stamina to be ramboing on big/medium maps. So having 50 round mag on small/medium maps such as station and spartanovka, and the 250 round belt on big maps such as fallen heroes and pavlos house. Would solve this problem.

Regarding the double drum mag 75 rounds, what do you guys think? It weren't that common, but having it on few medium maps such as spartnovka, wouldn't hurt. Imo also the mag is big, and you have to take it off to change barrel so it kinda sucks.
But then again 25 more rounds is very nice, often i get the mg now over heated, this never happened with the normal mag. ( Or did they change the barrel heat time with a patch?)

 

[shadowwill]

With you all the way bud, +1:IS2:

 

[Colt .45 killer]

IMO an absolute no to double drum MG34's. I think the current concept behind those is that they would be salvaged out of shot down airplanes. So your soldier has to get to a shotdown airplane where the MG still works and then remove it from the aircraft..

Even if you were successful in doing that the magazines are unique to that weapon system. So you would realistically have that weapon system and a handfull of double drums, when those were empty you would be reloading them by hand...


I was going to suggest that Belt VS drum have some other bonuses. IE drum you can shoulder the weapon. Or you can run a bit further ( better mobility ).

 

[Andrew Blake]

I get your point I just think its too bad that a thing TWI used time added won't not be used, well only on realism mode but still. I really don't know enough about the dobbel drum to say anything about it....

There was used a drum which to fill you had to reload by hand.

Yeah belt vs drum should be balanced a bit, but shoulder the the mg lol, no they didn't do that while moving.
Edit: Rather you cannot run while you have the belt fed mg34 loaded. We need a key from unreloading the mg34 key "7" for something for that.

 

[Forssen]

*large increase for being low on stanima (negated by prone or weapon resting)

Should still be noticeable even when resting your weapon.

* Possible to have weapon shot out of hand

I think extremely heavy sway for a short while is a better solution.

Run/Sprint speed - Unchanged
* I feel the default 'level 1' speed is actually fine. It only becomes ridiculous with hero level assaults. Like I stated above I hope realism mode has no progression system.

The momentum should be looked at when running. You can run and turn or stop too fast right now. Maybe it's hard to add heavier momentum without making it feel like you're running on ice. A solution could be a heavier head bob while slowing down. Acceleration speed should also be slower, this coupled with heavier momentum would help against unrealistic speeds indoor.

Additionally:
The time it takes to look get your iron sights up should be increased. The time it takes should depend on your current movement speed.

Reloading/bolting time should depend on movement. I've done a lot of crazy sidestep shooting with bolts in RO2 and it works waaaaay to well. Maybe increased free-aim sway (when not in ironsights) when jogging, feels like there is close to none.

 

[Andrew Blake]

The momentum should be looked at when running. You can run and turn or stop too fast right now. Maybe it's hard to add heavier momentum without making it feel like you're running on ice. A solution could be a heavier head bob while slowing down. Acceleration speed should also be slower, this coupled with heavier momentum would help against unrealistic speeds indoor.

Headbobbing!!!! NO, IRL you don't notice it why would you want to add it in a game, ARMA did it okey because of the free look. It does not fit in RO 2 at the end of a sprint which is very often. Rather make it a slower stop, which it should be and tilt the weapon slightly upwards and backwards to simulate the effect of stopping.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I get your point I just think its too bad that a thing TWI used time added won't not be used, well only on realism mode but still. I really don't know enough about the dobbel drum to say anything about it....

There was used a drum which to fill you had to reload by hand.

Yeah belt vs drum should be balanced a bit, but shoulder the the mg lol, no they didn't do that while moving.
Edit: Rather you cannot run while you have the belt fed mg34 loaded. We need a key from unreloading the mg34 key "7" for something for that.

@ Shouldering. The MG34 has a single shot trigger, so its not like the recoil would be obscene when shouldering. Just that the weapon would be a lot more unweildy if you have to manage a belt as well as the weapon.

 

[Andrew Blake]

@ Shouldering. The MG34 has a single shot trigger, so its not like the recoil would be obscene when shouldering. Just that the weapon would be a lot more unweildy if you have to manage a belt as well as the weapon.

The single shot was made to simulate a lone rifleman, using it in such a fasion you can't be serious. That would rather fit cod or MOH, it really doesn't belong to RO.

Why not add duel wield sidearms while you are at it.

 

[GRIZZLY]

\m/ :IS2: \m/

I like everything except what you wrote about suppression. The two big changes I want to see with suppression is

1) Fix becoming suppressed when your teammate 2 floors below you gets shot. The X, Y, and Z axis need to be incorporated in determining this. I far too often find myself asking, "Why am I suppressed right now?" because something that I can't even see or hear is happening below or above me.

2) While taking cover should be the primary way to alleviate suppression, I think they could add a secondary method or two. It's kinda silly how I'm still suppressed 30 seconds after a firefight when I'm nowhere near danger just because I haven't gotten around to taking cover. Going prone should help. Ideally, not getting shot/leaving immediate combat should relieve it - but that might be hard to code or something.