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Level Design RO-Orel-88vs76_2 - Allies nerfed a bit too much

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#81
The reason why this map is so hard for red, is that the Axis have an easy victory, if they use their 4 Tigers as a pack....moving and capping, from one objective to the other.
They cap, leave others to hold, and move on.

A couple of T34's can hold them off for a little (maybe destroying 2 of them), but soon get overwhelmed.
And in come the fresh Tigers...

It would be better balanced, if the Russians' radios were closer to the usual frontline.
....or let's have (mobile) radio-trucks!
 
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#82
Paajtor said:
The reason why this map is so hard for red, is that the Axis have an easy victory, if they use their 4 Tigers as a pack....moving and capping, from one objective to the other.
They cap, leave others to hold, and move on.

A couple of T34's can hold them off for a little (maybe destroying 2 of them), but soon get overwhelmed.
And in come the fresh Tigers...

It would be better balanced, if the Russians' radios were closer to the usual frontline.
....or let's have (mobile) radio-trucks!
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yea and a radio command panther for me :p:) is that ok Paajtor are you any good at fitting a radios in a tank i be your best Friend if you do that for me ;):p
 
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#84
Is it going to be up to me to make a version that is balanced?

I see Arad-SH being played alot, still needs some fixes for whoever is running it. I can use the same principle for Orel as I did with Arad-SH.

Russians: Speed and numerical superiority
Germans: Superior armor and firepower

I was thinking of something like this:
- Russians 12 T34/76's and 4 SU76's plus 2 UC's. Forget the KV1S since it is a piece of crap and has no advantage over the T34.
- For the Germans, 2 Tigers and a mixture of Panzer IV F2/H and StuG's with 2 half tracks.
- Remove satchels from all tankers
- Add 1 satchel spawn with 1 respawn at each bridge to simulate it being preped for demolition. Or configure the bridges so they can only be destroyed by artillery and high volumes of HE shells.
- Add a ford in 2 places of the river
 
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#85
Bolt said:
Give Germans 2 Panthers (they will have 2 Tigers also)? Panthers, the best tank in game, which cannot be penetrated from front even with T-34/85 (which soviets don't have anyway)? Yup, that'll balance things out.
Maybe it's historically correct (or not), but since there is no SUs ingame, exept for SU-76 (which was a late war SU), we can't forget about the balance. However, give Soviets SU-152 and I can happily live near those Panthers.



FYI, SU-76 also has this bug. All you have to do is don't put the gun in the extreme right or left position. I've played some matches on German side, so I can easily say that it is not true that every player runs for a Tiger. No, they don't. Some of them, of course, do, but not all.
Personally, I've been picking up Pz3, as well as some good german tankers, who have been driving in pairs in Pz4s.

They had those tanks in original Orel and 88vs76, which are great maps, imo. They are balanced. Germans have fire-power, Russians have speed. Germans have to build their strategy around Tigers - they are their strongholds, while Russians have to flank these strongholds and hit them in the rear/sides. Now at this second version if most of Germans know what they are doing, there are literally no chances to flank the Tigers. Situation: you're in T34 and know that there is 1 Tiger at: WF, CH, EH, EF. Plus their owerwatch. And they know how to aim and shoot. What are you going to do? This is just silly.
Also, I would like to see the numbers of Tigers (or Panthers) which were deployed at Kursk, as well as all other german tanks: stugs, pz4 and pz3. I have a feeling that heavy tanks were in small numbers, if compared to whole number of tanks.
I have no problem of facing 2 Tigers or 2 Panthers, while soviets have only 76s. But. This great map is becoming another nazi-fanboi's-dream-came-true-map, such as Arad SH (the older version) or Kaukasus SH. The gameplay is being ruined. You can't say, Karl, that Germans had a lot of problems winning Orel or 88vs76, can you? No, they hadn't.
I am yet to see Soviets win the second version.
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well why are you telling me this, whats it got to do with me??????? i did not make this map and i told you before. i always won with the 2 tigers, all i wanted on this map was the new panzer4H model i have never played Orel with a panzer 4H yet i spent months in a panzer 3 sweating and fighting:p they owe me the panzer 4H. also when the times comes i wont a new Ogledow map with king tigers and jS2s. no one will have time to moan just blow each other to bits:p:D
 
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#86
the only thing needed now, is something that limits the germans team. ive won orel 88 vs 76 2 a few times as russians. the only problem is that 99% of the time the german team is stacked, its the russian team that should be stacked. in the next version PLEASE LIMIT THE GERMANS TO 13 - 14 TOTAL PERSONAL. do that by giving them 2 guppenfuhrers and 11 panzerbeshtungs. that way they are FORCED to have the smaller ammount of tanks fielded at any one time. instead of having 18 people like they usualy do.
 
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#87
I was thinking of something like this:
- Russians 12 T34/76's and 4 SU76's plus 2 UC's. Forget the KV1S since it is a piece of crap and has no advantage over the T34.
- For the Germans, 2 Tigers and a mixture of Panzer IV F2/H and StuG's with 2 half tracks.
- Remove satchels from all tankers
- Add 1 satchel spawn with 1 respawn at each bridge to simulate it being preped for demolition. Or configure the bridges so they can only be destroyed by artillery and high volumes of HE shells.
- Add a ford in 2 places of the river
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While I can agree with such armour layout, I say don't: remove satchels and don't make any new fords.

EDIT: SH, how are you planning to implement numerical superiority? By giving Russians more reinforcements or by giving Germans less tanks?

well why are you telling me this, whats it got to do with me??????? i did not make this map and i told you before. i always won with the 2 tigers, all i wanted on this map was the new panzer4H model i have never played Orel with a panzer 4H yet i spent months in a panzer 3 sweating and fighting:p they owe me the panzer 4H. also when the times comes i wont a new Ogledow map with king tigers and jS2s. no one will have time to moan just blow each other to bits
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I was telling you this because you here are one of the few persons who think this map is good. I'd tell this to the creator of this version, but he isn't anywhere here, plus I've read his posts on fkmod.com forums and I know talking to him will be only a waste of time.
Stiner, I've seen numerous times when you were telling that you want 4 tigers on Orel, so don't tell bull**** that you wanted only Pz4H. And also, nobody owes you nothing. "I've spent months fighting in T-34/76 and SU-76, they owe me IS-2 on Orel.." Yeah, right.
 
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#88
From my personal POV on the Orel loadout, German team:

Why not simply make the tanks available limited to a single unit-type? For instance, using the original 503rd as a template, we could indeed have the 4 Tigers in the field- but the only other tanks available would be PzIII's, with a couple of SdKfz's thrown in the mix. No PzIV's or StuG's.

Why? Because the early-war loadout for the 503rd (and most other Tiger-equipped units) was for each Platoon to have 2 Tiger and 2 PzIII's assigned, so that each heavy tank had a 'wingman'; later in the war the PzIII's were dropped and the 503rd went with Tiger 1's exclusively until King Tigers came out.

So, you have 4 Tigers and a number of PzIII's, giving a decent (and historically accurate) loadout that can provide either a single mid-to-late war Tiger platoon (lumping all 4 together) with accompanying PzIII's, or a larger early-war Tiger unit of mixed Tigers and PzIII's organized into 2 platoons.

Assuming (and this is the fun part) each Tiger is double-crewed, the PzIII's could be double- or single-crewed depending on the team and/or what tank rules are being used, or dictated by tactical needs. Either way, you get at least vehicle-wise, a completely historically correct unit AND the play might not be so unbalanced. By removing StuG's and PzIV's, this might 'even it out' a bit so the Rus don't feel completely overwhelmed- they can even keep their Orel v2 loadout and it's still a pretty decent match, I should think (although I'd probably add in a few UC's for balance as well).

Now, since we already know the organization of certain units on the Eastern Front, why not simply include those vehicles and such and be done with it? If a unit equipped with PzIV's was there, do it right and give them PzIV's- but if a Panther or Tiger is on the map and it shouldn't be we're getting into the 'game balance' of it and not being entirely accurate, although I know sometimes compromises have to be made to make the map 'playable' for both sides.

The question at hand, though, is: which loadout is correct for the actual vehicles available in the vicinity of Orel during the course of the engagement? And is the terrain modeled an accurate (if scaled down) representation of what the tankers faced?
 
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#89
I like the idea of the sides on tank maps only having 2 types of armour, it seems more realistic/accurate in battles of this scale.
Removal of stugs may help the russians, as they are effective if used well, but regardless 4 tigers with PIII's would be phaps too strong for russians anyway- the P3 is an awesome tank and I would take it over a p4 anyday. You just have be careful to use the terrain when you move from point to point as obviously armour is poor, and on a map like orel it shows.
Tiger and p3 is one of the best combinations of 2 tanks IMO

I think what orel and this debate has shown is that for this era, the russians don't have enough of their armour represented, it's natural ppl want large tiger groups on big maps - but most agree a decent counter to them , as was available in RL, should be added to the game.
 
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#91
So is this ridiculous version here to stay? Russians don't have a snowballs chance in hell. Why don't whoever made it fix it so Germans get maybe 2 Tigers & 1 Panther. One more thing: Russians don't need 30 tanks at spawn. 16 is all that's needed (unless the Russian team is stacked BIG LOL!). All the extra tanks do is just lower your FPS for no reason whatsoever.
 
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#93
Bolt said:
Well, the author made a new version of this great map. 4 Tigers, 2 Panthers and, I believe, Pz4H.. Russians got 2 T34-85, a lot of T34-76, some KVs (probably) and some SUs. And oh, don't forget the UC!
I haven't played on it yet and I dunno, if I ever will. Somehow I've became quite cold to FK #3 server..
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Yeah that's the version I'm talking about. It's funny last night on it the Russians lost (predictably) even though we gave it our best shot against such ridiculous odds and at the end the Germans go "gg" lol good game huh? Really? for who? It was a "gg" if you consider getting pounded the entire round a "gg". I love the ability of people to trick themselves into believing they had a hard fought victory. That's like a heavyweight boxer annihilating a lightweight boxer "gg".
 
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#94
Maybe we both were on the same game, FK3 server?
I remember that I tried to keep a strategy up for the Reds, from round-start on.
We took West-field 1st (of course).
Then I asked to get Ruins, and from Ruins overrun Central Heights, and then focus on getting East Height, so that we would get forward spawn.

We got Ruins and Central, but could only keep them by having a guy with satchels hiding inside, which is what I did at Ruins for half a round.
Once they were dead (they will die eventually), there was no way for us to get upthere anymore...only at round-start.

And what's worse, we had both heights for a moment, but got no tanks in our forward spawn.:mad:

I used to like this map, but the last versions are to biased, imo.
And Reds are always outnumbered...how realistic.
 
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#97
The original Orel maps and BlackJuly maps still provide great battle especially with server filled with many vet players. New test versions floating around especially on FK3 been heavily favored for Axis recently but I still enjoy them. As long of course as they are being worked on, or in the process of improving. FK3 server turned out to be great server for people who enjoy long battles over long distances, large maps. A nice little community of usual players developed on it as well. I like it.
 
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#98
djsatane said:
The original Orel maps and BlackJuly maps still provide great battle especially with server filled with many vet players. New test versions floating around especially on FK3 been heavily favored for Axis recently but I still enjoy them. As long of course as they are being worked on, or in the process of improving. FK3 server turned out to be great server for people who enjoy long battles over long distances, large maps. A nice little community of usual players developed on it as well. I like it.
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thanks yes the FKR is the best i think for tanks battles:) Also put 2 su152s on black day july and 3 on orel then it be ok ;) hehe make them defend like this http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Reports/Kurskcam3-11.jpg
 
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#99
Sadly, the only 2 tank maps out there have degenerated into pretty one sided affairs
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Pretty much true

yessiry,there were some people with good ideas, however they never tested their maps in order to make sure they were fairly ballanced, and as such, they have produced extremely imballanced maps.
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Very much true

FK3 server turned out to be great server for people who enjoy long battles
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I can't say I associate it with long battles, not as a % of the map's allotted time anyway. That said, one did go the distance on the orel the other day; it actually see-saw'd a little bit which was nice, until the Germans won. It was a decent battle, but next round unfortunately Ger were a few players up and it ended real quick.

I was wondering what would happen if the 2 sides on orel switched ends. I'm not advocating unofficial changes to maps here (I don't know what the arrangment is with Slashbot if you want to edit orel for example) but it would be interesting to see how the matches play out with sides reversed.
The run-up to the heights feel safer from the east side, you seem more quickly aware of where threats may come from and better oriented- and once there can you cover the west side more effectively than the east? I wouldn't imagine much difference but it might be easier to attack some of the bridges and shell the main bridge at SL.
Maybe East field with it's open terrain is harder to approach/easier to cover than west field , and I also wonder if NB is an easier last cap to defend than SL? There is seems to be more relief to use as cover when you approach it from spawn, as well as less angles to be taking fire from. North bridge and run-up to it is given cover by the town itself from the natural direct of attack.
I dunno, maybe it would make no difference, maybe the terrain seems hard for Russian simply because Germans have better armed and armoured tanks. But I would realy like to see how 'Orel-reversed' would play, just out of curiousity.


It just occured to me that obviously you could see clearer what part terrain plays if the Russian '76s were up against the captured ones from BDJ - if it was ok to use them.
 
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#100
The version of Orel running on FK's server bites horribly. I have played it several times and the bottom line is the Soviets our simply outclassed and incapable of competing effectively.

Almost every tank I encounter is a Tiger or a Panther. If I am LUCKY I have a T-34-85, odds are though I have a -76. Either one is a tiderbox when shot at by the Panthers and little better against the Tigers (especially if they are properly emplaced.

On Orel the long ranges really favor the Tiger. You cannot pick and choose the weakspot as easily against a Tiger when shooting at 800 meters. The slow traverse on the Tiger also matters little at that range.

The new version is simply a train wreck and I will be spending much less time on the FK server when I see it running.
 
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