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Ping Compensation the UTComp3 way

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Zetsumei

Zetsumei

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Nov 22, 2005
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#1
Now I was wondering since a lot of people want ping compensation (serverside) and a lot of people hate ping compensation.

Why not possibly think of doing it the UTComp3 way. UTComp3 was a mutator for Unreal Tournament 3 that had ping compensation in it. Where the users could select in an ini setting whether the server should apply ping compensation to his weaponry or not.

If TWI could perhaps obtain the source of this mutator, and add the option in the menu. Then all players could essentially be kept happy.

3. ADVANCED FEATURES OVERVIEW.
3.1 Ping correction:
A ping correction can be enabled on server trough commandline or bEnablePingCorrection=true in ini.
Every player can disable it for own weapon, uncheck 'enable ping correction' checkbox in menu.
If you usually don't have ping less some value on any server and you wont play like with this ping,
you can set 'MinDesiredPing' editbox in menu. For instance, you set mindesiredping=40 and connect to server vith ping 120 and with enabled pingcorrection,
you will play like with ping 40. If you set mindesiredping=120 and your ping equal 60, pingcorrection will be disabled for you.
Too high ping correction can cause some gameplay changes for other players, so it limited on server with 'MaxPingCorrection' setting.
Recommended values is 150 for public server, 80-100 for clanwar or more skillful matches.
If you connect to server with MaxPingCorrection=100 and have ping 250, you got overall playability like with ping 150.
Click to expand...

Perhaps someone of the pro ping compensation guys with the abilities to code could try and contact the creator, with the request of being allowed to make a port of the mutator towards Red Orchestra2.

The website of UTComp is http://www.utcomp.org/
 
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#3
So wait, I have to suffer the consequences when some other guy decides to turn on ping comp? How the hell is that supposed to work? I get to be shot around corners because some dude can't learn how to lead his shots? I dunno.. if it works differently than how I'm assuming it does please correct me.
 
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#4
REZ said:
So wait, I have to suffer the consequences when some other guy decides to turn on ping comp? How the hell is that supposed to work? I get to be shot around corners because some dude can't learn how to lead his shots? I dunno.. if it works differently than how I'm assuming it does please correct me.
Click to expand...
Yeah...

Because as far as I see it, the main reason people don't like lag compensation is the fact that it often results in "BS kills" when you're the victim, such as being shot when you seemed to be behind cover and such.

Basically lag compensation benefits people doing the killing and pisses off those who are the victims much of the time. The whole reason it exists is to make sure that players who are doing the shooting get the results that it seems they should from their point of view.

I fail to see how this, even if it works, would solve the main things that people dislike most about lag compensation. Now it simply would make it less predictable because you won't know who would have it on and who would have it off, and you'd still be constantly suffering the consequences of people who have it turned on...
 
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#6
REZ said:
I get to be shot around corners because some dude can't learn how to lead his shots?
Click to expand...

hockeywarrior said:
Because as far as I see it, the main reason people don't like lag compensation is the fact that it often results in "BS kills" when you're the victim, such as being shot when you seemed to be behind cover and such.
Click to expand...

...you can get shot behind cover right now, guys. This wouldn't be new...

And people don't "learn" to psychically predict how a person is going to move in the future. You can learn to hit them if they continue doing exactly what they are doing now, but when the typical method of using cover is to wiggle back-and-forth while firing, something is a bit wrong...

Anyway, as for UTComp, it's really hard to tell from their minimal documentation exactly how it's supposed to work, but between setting your expected latency and how it replaces the player pawns, it's most likely doing prediction, rather than any actual compensation. That would be better for someone running in a straight line in the open and not turning, and worse for every other possible scenario. Further, the basic mechanics are exactly the same as now, it's just the computer guessing where the person will be rather than you. Your computer will no longer show you where they actually are, or even where they've gone, but where they might go. Basically, it makes your computer lie to you.

If anything, a prediction system would be even worse than what we have now. People would warp wildly as they move, it would be almost impossible to tell where a zig-zagging target actually is, and when someone stops moving your computer will continue to show them moving for the duration of your latency. That means that if you run up to a corner, everyone else will see you run out past the corner before snapping back behind it, ruining any chance of surprise.
 
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#7
Entity prediction is quite possibly the only way you could make RO2's networking model even worse than it already is. It somewhat makes sense as low-cost compromise method for UT, where nobody cares much about cover use or positional precision and you might want some sort of assistance for determining where to lead slow projectiles that the targets still need to be able to reliably react to and dodge...but obviously, not a bit of that translates into the context of RO.
 
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#11
Mekhazzio said:
Entity prediction is quite possibly the only way you could make RO2's networking model even worse than it already is.
Click to expand...

Afaik it doesn't work through entity prediction, it saves past states. Basically if your ping is say 100, in a certain area around the bullet path it will then move the enemies back to where they were 100ms ago.

Rather than looking at someone's current velocity and direction and moving someone forward by 100ms.
 
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#12
Reise said:
...When you play with 200+ ping.
Click to expand...

When you play with any ping over 0ms. The only effect higher ping has is how far behind cover you get. It's very simple, even; every 1ms of latency is 1ms more time you have to move behind cover before you "die behind it." At 100ms, you can easily die half a meter behind cover, and that's well below the average ping. The majority of potential players can not get such low pings, and catering to the small percentage that do (While not even making it work perfectly for them!) while making the game less playable to the majority of potential customers is not going to help out a fairly niche game. It's great for you, getting a sharp artificial advantage over the other players, one that has nothing to do with any skill or ability, simply for being blessed with better latency. As the reviews are showing, however, it's driving people away.
 
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#13
My opinion is.. the way TWI handled the ping and shot connections in Ostfront was great. It was great because it was consistently the same and because of it's consistency it was very predictable, it could be relied upon to act a certain way and therefore it was very learnable. They'd be making the right decision in sticking with the original philosophy when it comes to this subject, imo.
 
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#14
Zetsumei said:
Afaik it doesn't work through entity prediction, it saves past states. Basically if your ping is say 100, in a certain area around the bullet path it will then move the enemies back to where they were 100ms ago.

Rather than looking at someone's current velocity and direction and moving someone forward by 100ms.
Click to expand...

Really? It seems very strange that you'd set your ping manually instead of simply using what the game sees your ping at. Still, if it's actual latency compensation like that, that's a lot better than prediction.
 
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#15
REZ said:
My opinion is.. the way TWI handled the ping and shot connections in Ostfront was great.
Click to expand...

Erm... It's the same system they use in RO2, so I'm not sure why the comparison to a different game. In any case it's not consistent at all thanks to latency. What your shots do depend entirely on what the target does in the moments after you fire the shot. If he's 7 meters away behind cover so all you see is his head, and he's randomly fidgeting back-and-forth while shooting, there is no "consistency" to your shots. You fire into a random area in his rough vicinity and hope he decides to move there. If you have the typical internet connection, skill can only put the bullet in the general vicinity of a moving target. The rest of it is up to luck. That is not consistent, and it is not good gameplay.
 
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#16
Erm... It's the same system they use in RO2, so I'm not sure why the comparison to a different game.
Click to expand...

I don't play RO2, so that's why I referred to Ostfront. I've played it of course, but what it has changed into isn't in the least bit enjoyable.. for me anyway.

Actually, since the systems are the same, I can then say 'yes' it is very consistent. I know exactly what to expect and how much to lead at different ping levels because it always acts the same at those levels. The lead I would give with a 170 ping is always going to be the same sized lead at a given distance. Very learnable.

I do agree that at very close range, in Ostfront at least, hit detection could get crazy, mainly because the bullets spawned on the other side of you, but that's really close, so how would lag comp do anything to change that? Having to lead further forward at close distance than you think is 'realistic' is reason to go through the headaches of unloading several shots into a guy only to have the server 'rewind' time and kill you instead?

Leading your shots is so much more natural, it also creates a skill factor in the system having to learn how ping and distance affects your shots, and, no dieing well after you've made it behind cover.
 
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#17
PhoenixDragon said:
Really? It seems very strange that you'd set your ping manually instead of simply using what the game sees your ping at. Still, if it's actual latency compensation like that, that's a lot better than prediction.
Click to expand...

You can set basically how much it will look back. If under ideal circumstances you play with about 40 ping you can set it such that even when ping compensated you will play with 40 ping. Since there is a threshold you can set to enable or disable ping compensation.
 
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#19
REZ said:
I get to be shot around corners because some dude can't learn how to lead his shots?.
Click to expand...

You cannot learn to lead the shots since in a real firearm bullet flight time vs distance is always the same. With RO2 it is constantly fluctuating with the lag. Lag goes on top of real bullet flight time, making it feel like you're using some subsonic low velocity rounds.

For what its worth you got shot before reaching cover, just the different frame of reference makes it seem otherwise. Basic special relativity at work.
 
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#20
yes so I can bind it to a key and turn on lag armor when running across open spaces. Your idea is horrible. Also you shouldn't be playing any fps with pings over 80ms. stuff never works right. Xbox, PS3 and general nubness of everyone for some reason made 100ms+ considered OK for play.

I've been gaming for a long while. Sub 35ms for competitive play 35-80ms for casual play. 80ms-100ms desperate to play something 100ms+ don't ****ing bother playing find a closer server. Nuff said
 
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