New Firebug impressions

[Ryno5660]

I like the idea as well, more damage for what you have or more fuel to spread. The skills that support that magazine increase though, need to make fire a good thing to put out whilst not being damaging enough to allow you to save all that fuel. Ground Fire is a good place to start simply because the skill promotes using fuel on your environment too but again, the 2s groundfire duration makes it more of a flash-fry on the spot than something you can blanket an area with.

Update to my thoughts also: Groundfire should bump it up to what, 4-5 seconds of groundfire? Double duration? And apply to molotov too so it's also a flarotov skill (This is not OP at all, molotov is essentially groundfire in a bottle with a nice little direct-hit bonus). The final ZT skill "inferno" should be broken up and divided among BBQ and Napalm, even if it's in smaller percentages like 10% vulnerability and 10-20% slower. Napalm also does 50 damage on contact now whereas shrapnel does 10 damage - I think shrapnel should do the 50 damage and Napalm should simply get another schtick like the aforementioned slow/vulnerability.

Also one point I think is important to make: The Napalm skill, through all its' iterations, only activates its' boosts when fire is spread infectiously and does not apply at all to firing or anything else. I just want to say I think this is a mistake - Honestly, I think infectious fire should simply be replaced with another gimmick. If infectious fire absolutely has to stay it needs to be brought up to a point where it's as noticeable as Shrapnel. Though like I say I think Napalm needs to go (keep the name!).

Oh also if Napalm is keeping a duration boost it should be the same as BBQ and not simply on contact. "Napalm" implies you have now got military-grade fightin' fuel, and thus everything that leaves your gun should be boosted by it whether it's sprayed onto zeds, the floor, left to afterburn or whatever. Applying it only when a zed bumps another is silly in my humble opinion!

 

[random]

I like the idea as well, more damage for what you have or more fuel to spread. The skills that support that magazine increase though, need to make fire a good thing to put out whilst not being damaging enough to allow you to save all that fuel. Ground Fire is a good place to start simply because the skill promotes using fuel on your environment too but again, the 2s groundfire duration makes it more of a flash-fry on the spot than something you can blanket an area with.

Update to my thoughts also: Groundfire should bump it up to what, 4-5 seconds of groundfire? Double duration? And apply to molotov too so it's also a flarotov skill (This is not OP at all, molotov is essentially groundfire in a bottle with a nice little direct-hit bonus). The final ZT skill "inferno" should be broken up and divided among BBQ and Napalm, even if it's in smaller percentages like 10% vulnerability and 10-20% slower. Napalm also does 50 damage on contact now whereas shrapnel does 10 damage - I think shrapnel should do the 50 damage and Napalm should simply get another schtick like the aforementioned slow/vulnerability.

Also one point I think is important to make: The Napalm skill, through all its' iterations, only activates its' boosts when fire is spread infectiously and does not apply at all to firing or anything else. I just want to say I think this is a mistake - Honestly, I think infectious fire should simply be replaced with another gimmick. If infectious fire absolutely has to stay it needs to be brought up to a point where it's as noticeable as Shrapnel. Though like I say I think Napalm needs to go (keep the name!).

Oh also if Napalm is keeping a duration boost it should be the same as BBQ and not simply on contact. "Napalm" implies you have now got military-grade fightin' fuel, and thus everything that leaves your gun should be boosted by it whether it's sprayed onto zeds, the floor, left to afterburn or whatever. Applying it only when a zed bumps another is silly in my humble opinion!

i agree, even if it ends up being OP it can be tweaked for dmg or whatnot, but it lasting this short is just unpleasant to see/use.

i'm still rather fond of my idea for firebug of "concentrated fire"=rise the dmg/heat at the expense of bad ammo efficiency vs burst for better efficiency but bad for peak dps.

 

[Ryno5660]

I agree with that idea too - Honestly I think it can be achieved by making groundfire and shrapnel more damage-y options while BBQ and Napalm get some utility with the DoT for the CC tree!

 

[Escadin]

I have trouble imagining that mini FB rework of yours - especially what it would look like in practice. Perhaps you should really put it together in a small post or thread where you design all the skills properly and explain how they'd work together.

There are just so many things you could do with firebug:

• That close-quarters or even melee-bug with tons of crowd control, short range and mixed damage they're keeping alive through all iterations
• A high direct burst damage build centered around the microwave gun which makes you step back as the main trash cleaner as a down-side
• A pure crowd control and zed softener support for your team
• Evironmental hazard build focusing on ground-fire, spreading fire sources and molotovs

Ultimately, I think the playstyle I'd enjoy the most is one where you give flamethrower extreme range and after burn efficiency but punish hosing zeds down with direct hits (like it was in KF1). However, all of them appear interesting to me.

Unfortunately, I don't think the perk persues any of them very clearly right now. Part of the reason is all weapons are still balanced for plain old hosing trash to death (ammo-wise) and the other part is that skills still don't work properly and don't synergize as well as they could (which is also a peering issue).

 

[random]

I have trouble imagining that mini FB rework of yours - especially what it would look like in practice. Perhaps you should really put it together in a small post or thread where you design all the skills properly and explain how they'd work together.

There are just so many things you could do with firebug:

• That close-quarters or even melee-bug with tons of crowd control, short range and mixed damage they're keeping alive through all iterations
• A high direct burst damage build centered around the microwave gun which makes you step back as the main trash cleaner as a down-side
• A pure crowd control and zed softener support for your team
• Evironmental hazard build focusing on ground-fire, spreading fire sources and molotovs

Ultimately, I think the playstyle I'd enjoy the most is one where you give flamethrower extreme range and after burn efficiency but punish hosing zeds down with direct hits (like it was in KF1). However, all of them appear interesting to me.

Unfortunately, I don't think the perk persues any of them very clearly right now. Part of the reason is all weapons are still balanced for plain old hosing trash to death (ammo-wise) and the other part is that skills still don't work properly and don't synergize as well as they could (which is also a peering issue).

good concepts, i'd enjoy anything that is a mix of fun to use in the moment(but doesnt get old quick) plus rewards some sort of skill or strategy. so far all the firebugs iterations have been fun for me only for a short time while the novelty lasted, but it lacks more depth or challenge, since aiming is not really an option it would have to come in some form of tactics, like making more important when and who to burn, for how long and where.

for the mean time i like that now the flamethrower is better for trash and the MWG is better for bigger/metal carrying zeds, however the flamethrower might be TOO bad for big zeds.

 

[random]

1043: so now we have a OP firebug on the DOT side, and if you dont chose dot skills you get NO DOT at all. MWG went on the too weak side.

 

[Escadin]

Yep. I'll update OP.

 

[Lorkenpeist]

wait wut no DOT at all??? That's got to be a bug.

 

[Ryno5660]

Yeah it now lasts 1.7 seconds without either skill.

Napalm turns it into a different 5 second DoT which I assume is also boosted by BBQ.

Okay so what I was trying to say before, let me see if I can clarify!

Basically the whole right tree, in 1041 onwards also, was quite damaging. Half the reason in my eyes is because standard DoT duration is now even less than groundfire duration and without those 2 skills you rely entirely on the spray in front of you for your damage.

The core point behind my ideas was this: Damage tree has strong DoT alongside 25% more damage and so on. So the direct damage tree has you getting free damage, not having to spend ammo and allowing afterburn to kill. With those 2 skills on, the DoT is really good I'd say, as fun as it should be.

The point however is this: The Direct Damage tree (left tree) should also be the most ammo-consuming. The less damaging tree entirely promotes holding M1 on enemies for your damage as opposed to letting 'em burn. The reason I keep mentioning switching certain perks around is because in my eyes the CC tree should play how the Damage tree currently plays - Less fueltank dumping and more controlled bursts, saving ammo and spreading fire status. The CC tree has ground fire bursts but otherwise, you hold M1 with your high cap fuel tanks!

My thoughts were always that direct damage should be holding M1 and dumping a bunch of burning fuel onto a target, wiping out 1/4 of your ammo for a quick death result. That makes sense no?

The CC tree should be one blast of fire which BBQ and Napalm deal with, spreading fire effects for free and allowing DoT to do the job, but that job should be slow death and a lot of CC. Directly spraying enemies and dumping fuel on hordes/Big'uns should be the damage tree.

Another way of putting it? The left Zed Time skill supports the right tree and vice versa. Quite a few firebug perks support the opposing tree, when it comes to how they are structured.

Napalm now seems beastly, of course I am happy about this, but all I'm saying is "Napalm should do Shrapnel damage" and vice versa.

Oh and one thing I always thought would help Napalm? Corpses on fire should also be fire-infectious. Just saying.

 

[random]

Ryno: what you say makes sense, however i think that the current state is partly because of a bug that simplecat pointed out in the more technical way, i think they should solve that, and the free burst bug first and THEN see where the perk could go.

check this out xd, not mine btw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HXp0BsB3g

 

[simplecat]

Comes out BBQ and Napalm increase DOT duration by 2.5 times each, they do stack for total x5 longer burning duration. It's not necessary to have 2 ZEDs bumped to increase DOT duration, it just a passive ability of either of skills. They also increase duration of all fire DOTs.

Napalm turns it into a different 5 second DoT which I assume is also boosted by BBQ.

It doesn't really turn it. The targed ZED takes DOT which is weapon-specific, as you said for Flamethrower it's 1.7s with 0.5s intervals and damage scale of x0.7. But all nearby ZEDs take Napalm DOT: 50 points of initial damage, with x0.4 scale, 5s duration and 1s intervals.

But yeah, BBQ (and Napalm too) boost DOT duration by 2.5 times each for total of 5 times longer burning. Napalmed ZED can burn on its own for up to 25 seconds.

Other stuff:

Flame weapons now has maximum and minimum damage, but currently they are bugged and always do their minimum damage, so when it gonna be fixed firebug would shine again http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...minimum-damage

Napalm powered Trenchgun doesn't set nearby ZEDs on fire instantly but rather on ZED vs ZED bump.

 

[Ryno5660]

That makes a lot more sense after a few more sessions too. The minimum damage thing seems odd, hope that's fixed!

That video is showing the damage potential of Napalm too. I noticed when it become 50 damage on contact and I can only imagine how much damage potential there is blasting trash around a bigger zed. I also hope the Trench gun thing is a bug or something!

I will say however that full-left tree has been quite fun to play with. Full-right tree feels like it could do with more; Maybe Shrapnel being more effective, like a slightly bigger radius or something.

I do also think Ground Fire should improve your actual ability to put ground fires down too - Like aforementioned longer-lasting fires or more fuel hitting the floor from spraying, something like that. Currently, ground fire duration makes them a nice novelty for area denial but to truly get that you'd need something like 5 second ground fires or something I'd say. It'd be a really nice skill to apply to Molotov too, since that thing's whole schtick is ground fire!

 

[TheTCREngineer]

Man, I'm sad that Flaritov was removed, even though the fire and flare stays for too little and isn't that bright. That can be improved though! Add it in to an already existing skill or add it in by default. Fire needs to stay for 15 seconds and that flare needs to stay for 1 and a half minute to brighten everything up! Even though we have pretty much infinite flashlight...While you're at it, might as well give flashlights/nightvision a purchasable battery, so that after it's out of charge you gotta buy one for the next wave. Or maybe, Sirens can turn off flashlights temporarily(30 seconds probly) and after they do turn back on it's at 0 charge? I have no idea but I want that to happen!

 

[Pixues]

Napalm is so powerful now, its actually not enjoyable. But a fix will come, I'm sure.

Ground fire is just a mechanic that should be replaced with something else. Firebug is taking 'Killing Floor' a bit too literally. Continuously spraying the ground instead of zeds is not satisfying. Two of four weapons don't even see benefit from it.
I would rather see a skill that increases panicking of zeds, including large zeds. It would be damage vs crowd control for your lvl 10 perk choices.

Ground fire could be a Flamethrower speciality. An alt fire could be introduced. A middle click makes the flamethrower squirt fuel covering a relatively large area. You ignite it once with a flame and the area is set ablaze. The ammo consumption should be set to an amount that makes it balanced ofcourse.

Another thing. I feel like zeds that have died from fire and go down burning and lay down on the ground still burning should be able to set other zeds on fire. Maybe with reduced efficiency, but not completely impossible like it is now.

 

[Lorkenpeist]

Napalm is so powerful now, its actually not enjoyable. But a fix will come, I'm sure.

Ground fire is just a mechanic that should be replaced with something else. Firebug is taking 'Killing Floor' a bit too literally. Continuously spraying the ground instead of zeds is not satisfying. Two of four weapons don't even see benefit from it.
I would rather see a skill that increases panicking of zeds, including large zeds. It would be damage vs crowd control for your lvl 10 perk choices.

Ground fire could be a Flamethrower speciality. An alt fire could be introduced. A middle click makes the flamethrower squirt fuel covering a relatively large area. You ignite it once with a flame and the area is set ablaze. The ammo consumption should be set to an amount that makes it balanced ofcourse.

Another thing. I feel like zeds that have died from fire and go down burning and lay down on the ground still burning should be able to set other zeds on fire. Maybe with reduced efficiency, but not completely impossible like it is now.

The main issue with corpses spreading fire is that corpses are only tracked client side. A burning corpse for one person might be just air for another.

 

[random]

i think ground fire has potential to be a fun and interesting mechanic, just that in its present version being small and short lived forces you to spam fire all the time. on the other hand if they make it so it last longer you might burn your GPU and have other problems. maybe making the patchs bigger/longer-lasting but having a limit of 3-4 at a time and requiring you to fire a longer stream at the floor for them to stay could work.