New Firebug impressions

[Escadin]

Gonna make a topic about this so people can pool together what they find and to minimize repitition.

List everything you notice (I personally don't have much to tell yet because it's hard to find a server):


Bugs:

• Napalm still doesn't seem to work.
• C&B is not affected by increased tank size though 9mm are (60 in mag for dual 9mm)
• [New] You don't deal any dot damage if you don't pick Barbecue OR Napalm.

Changed mechanics:

• It also looks like they redisgned ground-fire. The patches are smaller and have a shorter duration but they're also created more frequently. It looks more natural but is much harder to utilize.
• Burning last long enough to kill most trash zeds.
• Ground Fire skill does not affect Molotovs.
• Bring the heat does affect Molotovs.
• [New] They changed Napalm (fixed) to deal direct damage to all surrounding zeds. This leads to exponential damage scaling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HXp0BsB3g

Changed Gameplay:

• Tapping the microwave gun is still more effective than holding it but you obviously do much more damage with it's impact damage as opposed to the splash damage.
• Being unable to use range and heat wave at the same time is a surprisingly big nerf to FT playstyle. This is gonna take some serious re-adjustment time for me but it also detracts from the fun.
• Molotovs recieved a huge nerf via the removal of Flaritov skill.

 

[ButtProblems.]

Without the fire duration perk the trenchgun isn't even lighting things on fire consistently, or they stay lit for an inconsequential amount of time.

 

[Ryno5660]

Lack of Range is slightly irritating I agree, standard range feels like it falls short of the effect.

Yeah without either fire DoT perks the fire seems to sizzle out quite quickly.

There are some changes I'd suggest as it's a slightly strange rework - the damage tree has a long duration while the other tree has slow and shrapnel/range. Tree on the right alonside high cap tanks is for a direct firespray playstyle I'd guess, where the left is supposed to be more tapfiring?

Here's what I think:

Lv5 - Decent choice to be fair, no bones to pick here. The damage tree doesn't support fueltank dumping as much as the other though which is odd, more on that later. Only change I'd recommend here is adding 100 fuel capacity to ammo cap, literally just for the sake of having full 200 reloads as opposed to a 100 at the end?

Lv10 - I've been using BBQ but played with both. Ground Fire is better at making a pile of deads on the spot and BBQ makes fire actually stick about a bit. Is it just me or does nothing stay alight when hit without it? I'd expect that kind of behaviour from a caulk maybe but fire should generally stick, the 5s duration was fine before, having less without a skill just feels underwhelming in my eyes.

Anyway Ground Fire. Increased damage from it is cool but you can do more. 5s groundfire duration would be much nicer in my opinion, those who play this way would be able to set up more flame traps. I don't think this needs a slow effect at all though, it's such a small slow window and it's already paired with damage (and we both know how fast it already ticks!).
BBQ improvement? I would say either give it the slow effect or something *alongside* duration. My thoughts are Slow effect goes to one and afterburn damage/panic power becomes more intense per tick with the other. Point is both BBQ and Napalm need proper secondary effects whereas Ground Fire has an out-of-place effect on it which can really benefit the opposing skill. You dig?

Lv15 - Ahhh, Napalm and Shrapnel. This choice is the same really though giving Napalm duration is a plus for sure. I will say I have seen the fire spreading actually do its' job but it's pretty limited, zeds can pass by without igniting more often than not. I won't deny it does do a little bit to spread fire to ones behind as splash radius is less now.

Point is, my opinion? Remove the spreading contact fire and replace it with something that supports the afterburn duration, again a Slow or CC type option would be kinda hand-in-hand here. I understand tough choices but the current DoT vs fuel dump seems odd considering the DoT is damage tree and the fuel dump is CC - Slow is useless alone and so is DoT is my point, where both would gel so well together.

Lv20 - At first I thought no worries but with Heatwave you are protected. With Range your gun actually has some range. Good choices and I like the idea behind it but Range loses this one. Without Heatwave that range boost won't be used for long, stuff will run up in your face quick enough and you cannot push it back. There needs to be a way to keep zeds back to accommodate - and Ground Fire slow is too specific to be reliably applied.

My suggestion here is possibly allow for some kind of stacking effect towards CC or even damage the more a target is impacted with flames. The range feels like the right range but without Heatwave you are more liable to simply die!

Lv25 - These seem fine, I've been using the infinite ammo one and it feels like good fun to blast about, or unload a salvo of Dragons' Breath. The other skill jowever sounds underwhelming. Vulnerability for all burning enemies sounds strong and useful but that should be emphasized where the slow should be taken away for reasons above. It makes a reliable slow seem too powerful to have in a normal skill and that is incorrect - Slow gone from this skill and replaced with either more vulnerability or a blast of fire from you (like medic's cloud) would be cool.

That's my opinion, hope it helps!

 

[Furious Imbecile]

What I'd like to see is a skill that increases the size of ground fire from weapons and molotovs. Molotov fire patches are so small it makes me sad since the fire itself is mighty efficient now.

 

[Ryno5660]

What I'd like to see is a skill that increases the size of ground fire from weapons and molotovs. Molotov fire patches are so small it makes me sad since the fire itself is mighty efficient now.

Yes exactly! The damage boost is a little odd, honestly I thought that whole tree was going to be DPS as it lends itself to it, the DoT stuff doesn't lend itself to 200 ammo though, it's a little confusing.

Ground Fire should be like Flarotov though I agree, generally better Ground Fire, no need for the slow effect and possibly even the damage effect but I know that it'd be a much more rounded skill if it did this for molotovs/ground fire.

Furious, you said something before the update about wanting Napalm to improve. Any thoughts on where it is now and where it could go? Just fishin' for opinions and such!

 

[Reptilian]

tfw napalm still doesn't work

is this a joke?

 

[ButtProblems.]

I like the range boost a lot. It helps you fire from elevations much more effectively and hosing down sirens is safer. It's definitely a playstyle/map choice which is great.

 

[Ryno5660]

tfw napalm still doesn't work

is this a joke?

It does work, with the decrease in splash radius you don't tend to hit a few of the ones at the back without it, it just doesn't proc enough or indeed have enough of an effect - Its' primary "pro" assuming it worked flawlessly would be ammo saving but you either use little or use it all wave-to-wave anyway.

All I can say is I think napalm should be a different boost to the fuel you use. So far I've thought the "slow" effect from Ground Fire or the DoT damage increasing per tick if you have Napalm, but I'm sure there are plenty of ways it can go that I haven't thought of yet.

10% vulnerability wouldn't be bad maybe?

Hell, off the bat right now for the sake of a new suggestion from me:

Napalm: Sticky stuff! Zeds have less/no chance to evade or block whilst on fire.

My point is I am sure there are many good choices but the on-contact spreading just isn't very helpful unfortunately. I've really tried with it, I hate shrapnel's aesthetics. Thing is, people are right when they say you can spread fire to any enemy you want easily enough with average use of your weapons, and that's all infectious fire is good for really.

Same with duration but to a lesser degree - Maybe it's because default on-fire time is less now (it seems) but stacking both DoT skills damn near guarantees trash death and allows you to focus on many things instead of one group at a time. Bosses like Patty also do not like the long duration while running away! Duration did surprise me in how it seems to work, however, I still think it's worth looking at alternative options to boost afterburn. Duration I actually want to keep but it should definitely go alongside debuffs of some kind, whereas the quicker more instant-result options on the left have debuffs that don't generally get used much because the zeds die quickly anyway.

I'll try to summarize and make sense: Left tree is damage but 2 of the skills apply the damage over a 15(?) second period. The right tree is CC and keeping them back whereas both the skills are more like damage "spikes" by comparison. My personal thinking is that it's the damage tree that should have more damage "spiking" effects and allow for quicker killing like the other perks, whereas the CC tree should be about keeping them back while they die to durations and debuffs! You're opening windows for your higher caliber team-mates.

The idea is that damage tree really piles it on if you dump fuel or utilise the ground fire/shrapnel explosions for chokepoints and damage spikes. The CC tree keeps them CC'd and back, but not like other perks where they have been successfully routed with a bullet and that's it; They are also on fire and are taken down over time, weakened and such whilst being kept at bay.

 

[Escadin]

I really tried hard to make napalm work but it just didn't. Ever. It doesn't spread fire nomatter what you attempt so the skill is just bugged. I agree that zed collision was too rare of an oppportunity to begin with but it currently (or ever) doesn't even live up to that low standard.

 

[Reptilian]

I really tried hard to make napalm work but it just didn't. Ever. It doesn't spread fire nomatter what you attempt so the skill is just bugged. I agree that zed collision was too rare of an oppportunity to begin with but it currently (or ever) doesn't even live up to that low standard.

I actually got it working in solo but not online. I like the idea of napalm but it should probably cause an AOE around zeds that are on fire instead of contact spreading.

 

[CrispyTreats]

I actually got it working in solo but not online. I like the idea of napalm but it should probably cause an AOE around zeds that are on fire instead of contact spreading.

Napalm should make enemies drip flames behind them that stick to other zeds, kind of like how napalm works in real life.

 

[random]

Gonna make a topic about this so people can pool together what they find and to minimize repitition.

List everything you notice (I personally don't have much to tell yet because it's hard to find a server):

A few obvious bugs:

• Napalm still doesn't seem to work.
• C&B is not affected by increased tank size though 9mm are (60 in mag for dual 9mm)

Changed mechanics:
It also looks like they redisgned ground-fire. The patches are smaller and have a shorter duration but they're also created more frequently. It looks more natural but is much harder to utilize.

Burning last long enough to kill most trash zeds. Whether you have the time or patience to wait that long is another story....


Changed Gameplay:
Tapping the microwave gun is still more effective than holding it but you obviously do much more damage with it's impact damage as opposed to the splash damage.

Being able to use range and heat wave at the same time is a surprisingly big nerf to FT playstyle. This is gonna take some serious re-adjustment time for me but it also detracts from the fun.

This buggs me quite a bit, the dmg is quite high, but being so small and short lived looks very uncertain to use consistently, but worse than that it's just lame that the fire goes out so quick and unnaturally, almost like its being put out, i'd also think that the blue fire would be nice for this skill.

 

[Escadin]

^
Yes it's kinda sad they ditched blue flames FX. After so many months of it misleading people to believe splash damage does help the flame thrower or it's ground fire at least... now we have a skill that genuinely improves ground fire but the blue flames are gone. I hope this is just an ironic oversight.

I actually got it working in solo but not online. I like the idea of napalm but it should probably cause an AOE around zeds that are on fire instead of contact spreading.

How did you manage that? I tested it playing solo, once on a testmap and then again in a regular solo 10 waves suicidal match.
On the testmap I spawned a 5 by 5 zedgroup (clots) and a gorefast AI. I set the gorefast on fire then lured it into the clot group several times from different directions. I even managed to get it entirely stuck a couple of times! I don't think there is any way to be more sure there was a collision than to get a zed stuck...

In the regular solomatch I let a bloat, a siren, a gorefast and a bunch of clots live at the end of the wave and tried my best to make them collide while one of them was on fire. Nothing! Not to mention it's overly difficult to have entities collide that all constantly move into the same direction.
The skill would be questionable even if it worked... I like the suggestion to make burning zeds drip fire where they walk and essentially create ground fire for you. A change like that could really bring back my interest in firebug. But then again it's probably OP


There are many issues with the firebug even after it's rework:

• Tap firing is still a thing
• Why does a perk with passive (read:for free) reload speed bonus need a double mag size skill?
• Burning over time works as expected: it eventually kills most trash zeds at least but who has the time or patience now?
• Groundfire became impractical to use despite the nice skill it gets which ruined my playstyle
• Loss of range due to bad peering kills it for me

Long burning effects worked in KF1 because you had much more space, way more range your flamethrower and zeds moved slower. Letting a zed burn for 6 seconds was possible and even reasonable. On top, you simply had to play this way because otherwise ammo wouldn't even last you half a wave.
None of this is true for KF2. It's even worse because you oneshot many trash zeds with the flamethrower's impact damage right away! KF2 has simply no place for 20seconds dots (or however long the duration can currently be).

Right now it's just too generic with almost all his skills worth taking being invisible stat boosts. I had higher hopes for this rework :/

 

[Escadin]

Update:

I didn't realize until now that Flaritov is gone. One of the most interesting skills they'd thought up and nobody ever complained about just out the window >_<
This is also a pretty huge nerf for firebug's grenades because the Ground Fire skill does not affect them. Bring The Heat (+35% damage) does affect all damage dealt by your grenades but the bonus appears inconsequential in most or all cases.

 

[Reptilian]

Update:

I didn't realize until now that Flaritov is gone. One of the most interesting skills they'd thought up and nobody ever complained about just out the window >_<
This is also a pretty huge nerf for firebug's grenades because the Ground Fire skill does not affect them. Bring The Heat (+35% damage) does affect all damage dealt by your grenades but the bonus appears inconsequential in most or all cases.

Oh I had assumed Ground Fire at least affected them. That sucks, I ran flaritov all the time. Hope we got a molotov based skill again.

 

[Ryno5660]

Ground Fire and Bring the Heat together should make a direct molotov work quite well, they seem to do enough damage to get a final hit on bigger ones so they can be good for a bit of spike damage.

Also I can confirm Napalm's duration increase is entirely from the on-contact bump and not passively increased like BBQ, Napalm is in the same boat is was before unfortunately.

 

[Escadin]

Ground Fire and Bring the Heat together should make a direct molotov work quite well, they seem to do enough damage to get a final hit on bigger ones so they can be good for a bit of spike damage.

Yeah maybe the combination could have undone the implicit nerf to molotov but right now "Ground Fire" skill dose not affect the grenade so it is a moot point. That said, if they were to fix it then we still had a cool way of lighting the catacombs replaced with another invisible stat boost. Not to mention that duration actually matters for ground fire (unlike burning over time on zeds)!
I'd personally prefer a molotov that lasts twice as long as over one that deals twice as much damage. It simply fits the grenade's purpose better imo.

Also I can confirm Napalm's duration increase is entirely from the on-contact bump and not passively increased like BBQ, Napalm is in the same boat is was before unfortunately.

Thanks for confirming!

 

[Ryno5660]

Yeah maybe the combination could have undone the implicit nerf to molotov but right now "Ground Fire" skill dose not affect the grenade so it is a moot point. That said, if they were to fix it then we still had a cool way of lighting the catacombs replaced with another invisible stat boost. Not to mention that duration actually matters for ground fire (unlike burning over time on zeds)!
I'd personally prefer a molotov that lasts twice as long as over one that deals twice as much damage. It simply fits the grenade's purpose better imo.

Ah that is a shame. Ground Fire should affect all ground fires I'd say.

Argh I have this kinda foggy idea about the FB tree but I can't really describe it without getting long winded again! I'll just say lv10-15 skills could all do with a bit of tweaking and possibly switching places to be damage/CC based. I also agree that the Molotov should be nice area denial but also a good "damage spike" option for those directly hit by it!

 

[ormalash]

napalm ticking ground fire on zed burning is indeed OP BUT what if you put a limitation of number of groundifre put by a zed burning like :
every 2 second of afterburn the zed put a pool of groundfire
and with that a bonus to groundfire duration like 1 or 2 sec more
and for range i'd rather change it entirely i admit it's a good thing but i think it should be added to the passive gain of the class through lvling
because i dont find it really usefull anyway instead i'd prefer to add something like a fear effect to the flame or a slow on afterburn damage ... well something to control ennemies and big one easily.
maybe add a penetration effect to the flame to ease the installation of groundfire ?

 

[flashn00b]

I'm actually liking the choice between extra damage and double ammo. Prior to the update, I have felt that there wasn't enough to encourage a "short controlled bursts" playstyle and between KF1033 and KF1037, mindless spamming was really the only way to play the perk.