My long time feedback about the unlock /progression system.

[Nado]

Progress system in RO2 was made by a brain damaged person

Progress system in RO2 was made by a brain damaged person

Flaw number 1: The progression system gives strict upgrades instead of sidegrades.

Flaw number 2: The progression is ridiculously slow if you play the game in a fair way. The progression should be more time based, ensuring everyone (skilled or not) would get everything unlocked after 500 hours gameplay.

Flaw number 3: The progression system is opened for exploit, allowing farm/boring servers with bots (headless chickens). This is a consequence for being kill/objective based instead of time based.

My opinion on the matter summarized:

My Reactions to a Fred Movie being made. - YouTube

 

[Solo4114]

Even if it was time based, though, you'd just end up with idle servers like you have in TF2.

Just don't have one. Progression systems are metagame systems that end up becoming a game unto themselves, and you have to really ask yourself why you'd bother including one at all. "Because all the other popular games do" is a lousy reason.

Progression/unlock systems are all about introducing an element of addictive behavior to the game. Look at any unlock system in a game like this, and you'll see that you have a system which initially offers rewards easily, and gradually strings them out at longer and longer intervals. It's the basic "Skinner Box" and it's all about operant conditioning. You repeat a mechanical task a gradually increasing number of times to receive a reward.

So, this begs the question of why you want to include one at all. There are three very simple reasons to do this, and none of them have to do with good gameplay.


1.) You want to get people "addicted" to your game so that they'll buy subsequent entries in the series. If people get "hooked" on this metagame mechanic, they will want to repeat that experience in future games. In essence, this builds a form of brand goodwill.

2.) You want to monetize your game. Get people hooked on the initial main entry (e.g. Battlefield 3), and you can then tell them that subsequent expansions/DLC packs will include further unlocks/progression, which will encourage them to buy the DLC packs or expansions or whatever. You can then schedule the expansions to occur gradually throughout the planned lifespan of the game, continue selling people individual entries (or give them a "Season Pass" for a larger up-front payment).

3.) Your basic game is kinda dull and you figure you need to make it "more fun" by introducing operant conditioning mechanisms to keep people playing. Personally, I respect a game that eschews unlock/progression systems because, to me, that's a game that's telling you up front "We don't need that crap to make you think you're having a good time. You'll like our game because the gameplay itself is fun, not because it includes some metagame treadmill mechanic."


If it's part of your long-term marketing/monetizing strategy, yeah, I get why you'd do it. And it CAN be done...ok, but it requires a deft hand. And even then, frankly, I prefer games that don't have this stuff. Give me stock gear and let me win or lose my battles on my skill and the skill of my opponent alone.

 

[LugNut]

Even if it was time based, though.....

This.

I think there's a small population of players who like the progression system and think it's cool. There's another small population who hate it and avoid it at all costs. (yeah, that's me) And there's the majority who would happily play without it, but it's in game and meh, they just put up with it.

I'm all for cosmetic unlocks, they'd be both fun and serve a purpose, to help ID players who are vets. So you could either shoot them or learn from them...

Weapon upgrades/unlocks just degrade gameplay in my experience. You could make it slightly less ridiculous converting them sidelocks, but it's still unbalanced against the newb and pushes players away from what should be the main focus of the game. Capping and winning.

 

[ro2player]

Progress system in RO2 was made by a brain damaged person

Nado, i dislike progression system in RO2. But i love Tripwire because of RO 2. Stop attacking Tripwire, please Nado, because insult will not make your game more fun.

I say to you : i am agree with you against progression system. BUT you don't have the good way to say it. Try to say answer but don't attack Tripwire. Tripwire do good job except with progression system BUT THEY DO GOOD JOB. The fact who is more important it's all the good job done. (even if you don't like this or this or this...) No game is perfect the one day. Keep it in mind when you play and answer in forum.

 

[Private Who?]

The avatar improvement thing is just wrongheaded. It should ALWAYS be about PLAYER skill. I don't care if someone is legitimately better at the game than me because they know the maps better or they know how the weapons operate better, or they've got better reflexes. But the mere fact that they ground against bots and can now shoulder a rifle faster or reload faster? To hell with that.

Yep. That whole post is dead on but ^this^ part is the dead-est on.

 

[Piscator]

One issue I see with unlocks, its primarily used as a method to attract more newer players and keep them playing. However the procedure takes so long, that by the time they get most unlocks they fall into the hardcore player category that would much rather see an equal playing field.

In terms of functionality of the actual unlocks my main issue with it would be. That most unlocks are not necessarily side based but more straight upgrade paths.

Meaning you become a hardcore player knowing all the little itty bitty things about the weaponry, and then you get rewarded with actually making your weapon even more better in the absolute sense. I'd rather see that with the additional knowledge of using the weapon you get the opportunity to tweak it in a way to suite your playing style, so gain a little here but loose a little there.

Especially combined with the additional bonuses of ironsight time, reload time etc.

I would much prefer to see side grades:
Rifle without bayonet, less good melee functionality, however less front heavy so less sway & smaller profile

Rifle with bayonet, better melee, but longer weapon and more front heavy generating more sway. Those kind of things are there are multiple options that can be thought off in a similar sense.

Ideally I'd have it like you start without unlocks so you can familiarize yourself with the base game. Then after playing a while and relatively quick when you somehow by stats show that you know how the weapon functions. You unlock some options that give it slight changes. Allowing you to somewhat customize towards your play style.

I sure hope this is part of Rising Storm and TWI did not persuade you guys otherwise. A progression system like in RO2 is as you pointed out gives you an absolute advantage and I dislike that. Also in RS your asymmetric gameplay would suffer severely with enemy weapon loadout.

To me I play Classic only because of the progression system mostly. Running speed and compass are not the main factor but this reward for playing longer might be putting new players off as being a newbie means you have twice the disadvantage (being new and no progression yet).

 

[Solo4114]

To me I play Classic only because of the progression system mostly. Running speed and compass are not the main factor but this reward for playing longer might be putting new players off as being a newbie means you have twice the disadvantage (being new and no progression yet).

The progression system is actually one thing that keeps me OUT of the game. I played for, I dunno, 10-ish hours early on and got annoyed with the progression system. Other people had been playing for around 100 hours at that point, and had better avatars than me, so they had an absolute advantage on me.

But now? When people who are still playing probably have, like, 1000+ hours in? Screw it. Why bother? I mean, maybe if I can find a server that doesn't have unlocks or avatar improvement and everyone's just using stock gear, but otherwise? Not interested. I don't care how good the game is otherwise -- those things will kill my fun.

 

[Lord_Lovat]

Hey Solo4114,

I agree with you and want to invite you to play Classic mode!
No enemy weapon loadouts, no unlocks, ...
Give it a try, there are some players active in the evening (EU Time).

Hope to see you there,

 

[Solo4114]

So, I decided to give classic mode a whirl. And you know what? Unlocks and the skill progression system still suck. While you do have everything available, your class progressions still are locked (e.g., no C96 option if you haven't unlocked it -- not that that's a big deal), and you're still going up against guys who have better sway, reload speed, etc.

You know what? Screw that. If I wanted to play an RPG, I'd fire up Dragon Age: Origins.

The core mechanics of classic mode are indeed fun. The class progression system is just an idiotic design. I gave it a try, and it just doesn't hold any appeal for me. I'd rather pay for and play other games.

 

[Moskeeto]

and you're still going up against guys who have better sway, reload speed, etc.

That is not a factor in Classic mode either...
So, you're just going up against people who have better skills.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

So, I decided to give classic mode a whirl. And you know what? Unlocks and the skill progression system still suck. While you do have everything available, your class progressions still are locked (e.g., no C96 option if you haven't unlocked it -- not that that's a big deal), and you're still going up against guys who have better sway, reload speed, etc.

No you are not. Everyone is the same. Chances are if you feel like that, you are just dying because you are going against players used to it or (*gasp*) they are better than you

 

[Solo4114]

No you are not. Everyone is the same. Chances are if you feel like that, you are just dying because you are going against players used to it or (*gasp*) they are better than you

Then why was my rank and such advancing? I figured if it's tracking your ranking and weapon levels, it's applying those in-game. If it isn't, that's good news. I don't have a problem being killed by someone simply because they're better. I have a problem being killed by someone because their AVATAR is better and they have more/better gear.

And, sadly, I wasn't really going up against much of anyone since the classic servers all seemed like ghost towns when I was on (around 6-10pm Eastern).

 

[Yoshiro]

Then why was my rank and such advancing? I figured if it's tracking your ranking and weapon levels, it's applying those in-game. If it isn't, that's good news. I don't have a problem being killed by someone simply because they're better. I have a problem being killed by someone because their AVATAR is better and they have more/better gear.

And, sadly, I wasn't really going up against much of anyone since the classic servers all seemed like ghost towns when I was on (around 6-10pm Eastern).

Classic settings allow your rank to increase but do not make use of the systems to effect gameplay.

I personally like a realism base with classic weapon handling and weapon loadout.

 

[PermenentMarker]

I am not crazy about it nor do I dislike it.


I got my ppsh past lvl25 for the drum
Mosin at 50
Kar at 30ish

Don't care about the rest.

I think it's fun for the overly (insane) dedicated (who might lack a life and perhaps should go out more)

Who can deny that having a silenced pistol or a fully automatic pistol isn't fun and a fair reward to the insane above.


(Don't take my comments too seriously, I used to have the time to play that much back in ROOST)... I guess I just got old.

Classic settings allow your rank to increase but do not make use of the systems to effect gameplay.

I personally like a realism base with classic weapon handling and weapon loadout.

+1
But too little of those servers unfortunately.

 

[Miggo]

In my opinion progression is good thing. Only bad thing in weapon levels is that you need huuuuuge amounts of kills for pistols.

 

[Nikita]

Then why was my rank and such advancing? I figured if it's tracking your ranking and weapon levels, it's applying those in-game. If it isn't, that's good news. I don't have a problem being killed by someone simply because they're better. I have a problem being killed by someone because their AVATAR is better and they have more/better gear.

And, sadly, I wasn't really going up against much of anyone since the classic servers all seemed like ghost towns when I was on (around 6-10pm Eastern).

It isn't applying them. You rank up, but your avatar remains at base stamina, sway, run speed levels, etc...

And maybe you're playing a different game than the rest of us, but these days there are full classic servers until around 8PM, sometimes 9PM. Certainly you should be able to find a 64-person server largely full at 6.

 

[Sulman]

Classic settings allow your rank to increase but do not make use of the systems to effect gameplay.

I personally like a realism base with classic weapon handling and weapon loadout.

I think the vast majority prefer this, given the choice. I have to ask why you didn't go with something along these lines for the default in Realism...it's just about perfect.

Something I hope you chaps are bearing in mind for RS.

 

[Westernesse]

I think the vast majority prefer this, given the choice. I have to ask why you didn't go with something along these lines for the default in Realism...it's just about perfect.

Something I hope you chaps are bearing in mind for RS.

Well this is where the majority of the player hours seem to go, realism with a few modifications towards classic. Although its much more common to see a server with classic weapon sway/handling and/or compass instead of Minimap vs classic weapon loadout or classic stamina or no bandaging.

Perfect custom for me would be realism w/ classic weapon handling/sway and then realism stamina amounts, but the slowdown to almost a dead stop if you run out of stamina.

 

[lazerBAR]

Classic settings allow your rank to increase but do not make use of the systems to effect gameplay.

I personally like a realism base with classic weapon handling and weapon loadout.

I have to agree with this, I always wanted Classic and Realism to merge and create a truly realistic and good mode. I say only allow enemy loadouts and perks in Action mode.

 

[SCOTT_E]

I maybe missing the point here but can't one argue that the progression system in some cases adds a degree of realism in respect to the better handling of weapons, mag spread, reload times etc etc. Other aspects like being able to select an enemy weapon so you can blend in more in enemy territory acoustically are useful. Could take a Vet to understand that.