Missing Sniper Features

[Mormegil]

The previous poster is right that wind would cause a horizontal arc, compared to gravity that causes a vertical arc.

Using basic physics, you can calculate the total force exerted on the bullet taking into account both gravity and wind, resulting in a diagonal arc.

Right now, the gravity drop is probably precalculated since gravity is constant (don't know if arc is affected on gravity mods). The problem with wind is, you can't precalculate the arcs, as the amount of force made by wind is determined by the angle of the wind.

For instance if you're shooting perpendicular to the wind, you get thefull force of the wind acting against the bullet. But if somebody is shooting at you from 90 degrees, parallel to the wind, they either get the wind pushing against the bullet or pushing it forward, but NO lateral bullet movement.

So those are the two extremes, 0 and 90 degrees. Then there's everything between them.

To implement this, I think the Physics card would be required on the server.

I personally wouldn't mind this, but it would have to be with the option to adjust windage (and range) on the scope / IS.

It's more realistic, which I like (as I'd get sniped less).


I'm pretty sure vapor trails don't happen 100% of the time, just when atmospheric conditions allow - high humidity I think. So that would have to be map specific.

 

[SgtThompson]

That wouldn't help because the direction of the wind is absolute and changing the angle of the flightpath would simulate something entirely different. A bad barrel maybe.

If bullets were affected by gravity the gravity could be changed to pull a bit to a side. I don't think it would affect jumping too much, but I don't know if bullets work that way in RO.

That what I was thinking. If it slowed servers down that much, they wouldn't have added bullet drop.

 

[SgtThompson]

With wind the flight path would be an horizontal arch but that would probably stress the game too much. The gravity one is a vertical arch but i believe it uses a pre calculated arch thats the same every time If you want different wind types a linear horizontal movement of the bullet is probably the least server stressing.

(aka i mean the angle of spawning depends on wind direction not randomly spawning some way like if you're with the back to the wind the bullet will go straight and if the wind is from the side the bulled will spans say with an angle of 1 or 2 degrees to the right.

In the end i still think its too much work for what it offers though. beside that all maps would need to be changed. Including custom maps.

How about this. I'm going to talk to my friend who is currently attending Full Sail. Full Sail's licenses are with Unreal technology... specifically Unreal Engine 2 (they haven't gotten unreal 3 yet). I'll ask him to talk to his friends in Game Design (programming) about this and see how difficult it would REALLY be. That way we can eliminate all these theoretical limitations and focus on real ones.

 

[SgtThompson]

The previous poster is right that wind would cause a horizontal arc, compared to gravity that causes a vertical arc.

Using basic physics, you can calculate the total force exerted on the bullet taking into account both gravity and wind, resulting in a diagonal arc.

Right now, the gravity drop is probably precalculated since gravity is constant (don't know if arc is affected on gravity mods). The problem with wind is, you can't precalculate the arcs, as the amount of force made by wind is determined by the angle of the wind.

For instance if you're shooting perpendicular to the wind, you get thefull force of the wind acting against the bullet. But if somebody is shooting at you from 90 degrees, parallel to the wind, they either get the wind pushing against the bullet or pushing it forward, but NO lateral bullet movement.

So those are the two extremes, 0 and 90 degrees. Then there's everything between them.

To implement this, I think the Physics card would be required on the server.

I personally wouldn't mind this, but it would have to be with the option to adjust windage (and range) on the scope / IS.

It's more realistic, which I like (as I'd get sniped less).


I'm pretty sure vapor trails don't happen 100% of the time, just when atmospheric conditions allow - high humidity I think. So that would have to be map specific.

Your points make a lot of sense. I'm not sure how this would would on the server side (see above, I'll ask people who know).

As far as vapor trails go, I should specify EXACTLY what I mean and how vapor trails and bullet trails differ.

I admit, I should have called it a bullet trail, but I figured most people would have a good idea if I called it a vapor trail. Really, a vapor trail is what you see coming off of wings of a jet while it's turning. Bullets rarely do that. Bullet trails happen every time. Most people don't notice because they aren't using optics that will see it, the range isn't long enough to notice, or they are the one shooting (which usually causes you to lose sight of what you just shot at.) So, really bullet trails wouldn't be completely useful unless there was a spotter option.

Personally, the options I would like to see the most are Breathing enhancements, windage, and an ability to adjust the sights (gooood idea, I forgot who said it on here). The others are just nice little additions.

 

[SgtH3nry3]

How about this. I'm going to talk to my friend who is currently attending Full Sail. Full Sail's licenses are with Unreal technology... specifically Unreal Engine 2 (they haven't gotten unreal 3 yet). I'll ask him to talk to his friends in Game Design (programming) about this and see how difficult it would REALLY be. That way we can eliminate all these theoretical limitations and focus on real ones.

Don't forget to mention it's a online multiplayer first-person shooter.

 

[SgtThompson]

Well, just an update. I haven't had a chance to talk to my friend yet, he's an extremely busy person. I'll make sure he knows it's a multiplayer game.

On another note, I'm surprised to see how many people showed an interest in the spotter option. Feel free to brainstorm your ideas and how you would see the spotter fitting into the existing classes.

 

[metternich]

I could see this working 3 ways:

A. An actual class. He would work closely with the sniper, and would get credit for the kill if he was looking at the target when it was shot or if he was with in a radius of the sniper (I dont even know if that could be coded into the game). If you armed the spotter with an SMG, it would give the sniper some close range defense.

B. Instant Replay. Give snipers the ability to watch an instant replay of the shot they just took. This would give them and idea as to where the bullet actually ended up.

C. Instant Feedback. When a shot is taken, the computer tells you how many centimeters below the crosshairs the round actually hit. Again, I dont know if it could be coded into the game.

My personal favorite would be C if it could be coded into the game. B wouldnt be at all realistic, and A is bad because I think most people would rather be riflemen than run around with a sniper and a high power scope.

 

[Murphy]

@A: see various "Spotter" suggestions...
@B: Huh? This has nothing to do with realism! Look for the puff of dirt to see where your bullet ended up.
@C: see B.

 

[SgtThompson]

Good start on suggestions so far.


Also, in an attempt to debunk the "there's no long range shots in RO" comments, I went ahead and made one.

The gif is kinda crappy looking, but hopefully you can see the range, see the guy, and see that I killed him from the distance (look for SgtThompson in the top right of the screeny).

I should also add that covering up the guy your shooting at with the massive reticule makes this kind of shot a little tricky...

And depending on how far away everyone thinks this shot is, the following may also be helpful to explain the windage argument.

Yes, I already know Mosin-Nagant used 7.62x54mmR ammunition (.308 is 7.62x51mm, slight difference)

At 400m, the round may move by around 20-25 in. according to this graph (with 10mph cross wind).

However, I would MUCH rather have range adjustments and thinner reticle before windage. I really wish I would have thought of that when I made the poll. Is there a way to add something to the poll?
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[Murphy]

So that's long-range shooting?

 

[rossmum]

I think the furthest sniper kill I've pulled off was somewhere between 400-450m, and it was on a standing target because of my massive ping and also the huge sight post. I'd LOVE to see range adjustments on the scope and a thinner reticle, and a spotter could be done - if the sniper finds someone willing to spot, he should be able to drop his binocs so they can take them (currently unable to drop, even when shot in hands). If wind can be done without stressing the game too much, that'd be good too - but I'd rather see the others first.

A key to hold your breath wouldn't be much use with a sniper rifle, as a steady rest already makes it perfectly still if I recall correctly.

 

[SgtThompson]

So that's long-range shooting?

More or less. I'm sure there are plenty of longer ones, but this one presented its opportunity first.

If you have a longer one, feel free to post it.

This screenshot shows the range from a tank at this position. The shot landed a bit below at 400m and too high at 600m. So the shot should have been somewhere between 450-500m.

 

[|9.SS|Johann Seiter]

Yeah, if you add these features it becomes TOO realistic, which can turn off players.

 

[Antibiotika]

Hello!
First post outside of the help forums.

Point by point:

Breathing: Really probably pointless. It's kind of part of good shooting posture and i can't think of one running out of breath under most conditions, so i see no reason to simply have a hold breath key one must toggle on/off.

Wind: Very complicated, with minimum difference at combat ranges and would only serve to frustrate snipers.

Time of Flight: Doesn't the game already have that? If not, i think lag takes care of it for the most part.

Vapor trail: I know this probably exists (I've never shot rifles beyond 200 yards with anything but iron sights and ammo below 3000 FPS IRL), but its utility is dubious. You should be able to estimate reasonably well from sizes of people. Without wind, vapor trail is again of dubious use.

Spotter option: People can barely do 2 men in a tank most of the time. On foot it is even harder to work together. It would kind of be boring: One does not have a machine gun ammo carrier, can't really expect to have a spotter. It's best to simply let that one go in favor of playability.

All: No.

Now, what i really want to see is adjustable sights, on both scoped rifles and iron sighted, assuming they actually could adjust. My M44 has a graduated tangent up to 1000 yards, K98 up to 2000. Even an MP-40 and PPSH had flip sights zeroed at multiple distances. (PPSH can also fire semiauto!) I know most of those are useless for aimed fire- ends up being volley fire- but it wouldn't be too hard to program in adjustable sights and i could see that being fun to play with without adding unnecessary complexity. Sighting in tanks is already possible. It would be excellent to have for an LMG. Pistols of course did not have adjustable sights.

My longest range kill with a rifle/smg? I'd have to sit down and figure it out, but it was i guess about 300 yards with a MP44 on semiauto. It took about 15 aimed shots per person but i was able to kill multiple people before i got blown up by a tank. Made it very clear to me why one would want an intermediate cartridge for even that range compared to something like a Gew 43: More bullets!

 

[Hummer9120]

I could see this working 3 ways:

A. An actual class. He would work closely with the sniper, and would get credit for the kill if he was looking at the target when it was shot or if he was with in a radius of the sniper (I dont even know if that could be coded into the game). If you armed the spotter with an SMG, it would give the sniper some close range defense.

B. Instant Replay. Give snipers the ability to watch an instant replay of the shot they just took. This would give them and idea as to where the bullet actually ended up.

C. Instant Feedback. When a shot is taken, the computer tells you how many centimeters below the crosshairs the round actually hit. Again, I dont know if it could be coded into the game.

My personal favorite would be C if it could be coded into the game. B wouldnt be at all realistic, and A is bad because I think most people would rather be riflemen than run around with a sniper and a high power scope.

It's funny because a lone sniper can do all that himself.

 

[panzerknacker]

You are neither Vassily Zaitsev nor Helmut Thorvald.

You are the drunken peasant farmboy who in basic occasionally hit the target, which made you squad marksman. Congrats heres a scoped rifle dont shoot your foot off.

Though shooting a man in a ghilly suit off the roof of stalingrad kessel pressing his breath button while fapping to the thought of his slo mo bullet trail with a regular bolt would be good for a giggle.
WTF YO I'Z INVISBLE SNIPZ0R!! U SUCK n00b!!!!111

 

[Hummer9120]

You are neither Vassily Zaitsev nor Helmut Thorvald.

You are the drunken peasant farmboy who in basic occasionally hit the target, which made you squad marksman. Congrats heres a scoped rifle dont shoot your foot off.

Though shooting a man in a ghilly suit off the roof of stalingrad kessel pressing his breath button while fapping to the thought of his slo mo bullet trail with a regular bolt would be good for a giggle.
WTF YO I'Z INVISBLE SNIPZ0R!! U SUCK n00b!!!!111

hurrhurr exactly.

 

[7.62]

In my opinion, the game is perfectly complicated the way it is.
If you want to change the snipers properties in ANY way, there should be a scope glare included similar to that of FarCry.

Considering the bullet is generally on its way before you even see the muzzle flash, if your quick enough to see the scope glare, then you can get some cover.

BTW - You should only be able to see the scope glare if the shooter is looking in your general direction....

 

[Demjansk]

Wouldn't vapor trails end up working like tracers, making snipers easier to locate?

 

[NuCleaR]

Meh... I'll not vote on this one.