Machine Gun functionality

[Wolfsglen]

Considering that the "Old Player Vet" you are having a go at had to completely learn new tricks, as did i, when starting to beta test Ost...you may want to pay more attention to what he is saying.

Because it may just be that he knows how MGs work in Ost already, better than someone who hasnt played it yet, and therefore knows how they work already

Now you made some good points, but there is no need for the sneering old player stuff - i dont tolerate that any more than i do the bashing of new players by self-proclaimed veterans.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

Oh here we go. I was wondering how long it would take for these vets to show up. I knew exactly what they were gonna say.

Bah.

You may be good with an MG. But the fact remains that they just don't have much tactical effect on the game. They are a minor nuisance at times. They simply aren't area denial, no matter how good you are with an MG in game.

Try going to backroute when I guard it with my DP28, and I'll show you area denial

The only thing I can read ot of your posts is that you whish for artificial chokepoints on maps for the MGer to hose down enemies. It is no "tactical impact" to take position there, it is the mappers intent on how the map should be played... I find open maps with multiple routes just more challangening tactically than "running to the MG-spot".

I think it is partially pop up riflemen, map design, and the limited visibility and excessive recoil (shaking) of the MG that makes them less than what they should be.

At least to me, pop up riflemen are not my main "enemy", but guys sneaking up at the sides, or using the time they have while I shoot at somebody else.
The maps are fine. As I said, no tactical skill involved if there are certain predefined MG-spots.
Can't complain about the visibility. I see just as far as anyone else does, just snipers have a slight advantage.
And about the jittering: Try to shoot in short controlled bursts. The only proper times to hold the trigger: lots of enemies approaching simultaneously, you are hipping in CQC and spraying till the enemy dies, you have to empty the last few rounds of the drum to reload for the next wave or you have already won and are celebrating the victory.

It makes me wonder...do you want a new game at all? Why not just play the mod once the new RO comes out? Do you genuinely want impovements, or do you not want to learn a new skill set?

If I wanted a completely different game, I wouldn't bother with RO:Ostfront. What I expect is a game improved over the mod, but not fundamentally different. There will be things we all have to relearn, but other things should be applicable to both the mod and the retail game.

Still, I too think that the MGs could be improved in many ways, like the viewing issues you mentioned, but NOT by adding chokepoints to maps just for the sake of having spots where MGers can own the other team.

 

[Pizzagrenadier]

Fair enough. My apologies then.

What I resent is the tendency of vets to cry, "You just don't know how to use them" every time someone makes a suggestion. It happens a lot. And it always seems to be from people who want to protect their skill set, not move the game forward. If this is not the case wth you, then this wasn't directed at you.

If you are a tester and so is he...grats. I wish I was in your shoes.

Anyhoo, no worries.

Edited after seeing post I missed.

OK, I understand what you mean about maps.

Let me clarify, I don't want artificial MG choke points. I was saying there need to be points on the map that increase pressure. The large square lateral objective maps don't work IMHO. They can be fun I guess...

I would like to see more narrow (not TOO narrow mind you) and deeper maps with more linerar objectives (with perhaps a few staggered left and right to make it more interesting).

I also want more open maps with multiple routes, I just would like to see some more direction than current. There is open ended, and then there is TOO open ended. The current majority of RO mod maps are too open IMO.

I like the potential behind Konigsplatz, because that seems to be deep and narrower with linera objectives (from what I infer from knowing the actual historic location and hints from screenies).

So just to be straight, again, I'm not asking for DoD maps with artificial DoD MG chokepoints...just some better configurations than the huge square maps with lateral objectives.

Just my not so humble opinion...

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

Personally, I just saw the comments by Rattus and Svu as not adding anything constructive

Well, just to make something clear: I am not a beta tester, only Svedberg is.

And perhaps I came out a bit more rude than I intended. And I don't want to protect my skillset, at least not strongly. The thing I love about RO is that you really have to invest time to master a weapon. And I hope it will be the same way in Ostfront, even if I have to start from scratch again too.

But still, I disagree with your "mapping" point We can still be friend though!

 

[Pizzagrenadier]

Sounds good!

*shakes hands with Rattus

I will be playing this game no matter what anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter too much lol.

As far as MG fire, I almost always use 3 round bursts, and even then it always seemed excessive with the gun shaking to me. But thats just my experience.

At least we agree that MG's could use some loving. As far as maps...well, thats just taste I guess. I like longer narrower battles (but still with lots of routes). They always seems to me to promote a more intense ground taking game. Where you push back your enemy and keep pushing into his lines. IMO, the large lateral maps just mean you keep pounding away at the same few locations again and again with no penetration of either sides defenses. Seems a little weird to me. Not that these kinds of battles didn't happen, just that the deeper maps always seem to be more exciting and make it feel like an attack/defense game.

Anyhoo...can't wait for ROOST!

Oh, forgot to add about maps...

In my own research over the years I have found some good info on platoon ground coverage in attack and defense.

In most nations of WWII, the platoon would typically defend an area around 100-150m wide. More if the company and higher elements were understrength. The platoon in attack would cover a MUCH smaller area often around 50m. This is because attackers need to concentrate their power on a section of the line.

Most companies fought with two platoons in front, and one in reserve. This way, if a breakthrough occurs, the reserve can exploit it.

Anyway, as far as maps, this leads me to believe that a narrower map (100-150m) but deep with lots of places for defenders to fall back would make for a really neat style of gameplay.

This would lend itself really well to forward spawning.

 

[AceOfSpades]

In response to the "you just need to learn how to use them": If it's easy to do in real life, it should be easy to do in a game. People shouldn't be required to be ub3r 1337 just to lay down suppression because people will depend on that and pop-up shots will become effective.

Anyways, it's true that DoD's MG's are more fearful that RO's MG. DoD's MG's have no recoil whereas RO's MG's have shaking and vertical recoil as well as horizontal recoil. This might be realistic, I dunno, but it throws your aim off which makes suppression difficult.

Perhaps some solutions to this would be: bobbing when changing stances, suppression effects (it's not the game telling you you're suppressed, it's how the human body naturally reacts to the environment), etc.

 

[Moe_Rahn]

(it's not the game telling you you're suppressed, it's how the human body naturally reacts to the environment), etc.

If it's my natural reaction, then shouldn't I be feeling it, instead of the game doing some kind of effect and basically saying, "HEY MAN YOU ARE HELLA SUPPRESSED BY THIS MACHINEGUN RIGHT ABOUT NOW". Whenever I'm getting shot at by an MG in a game, I've probably already become worried about getting shot by it on my own; I don't want a game to tell me I should be worried about it.

 

[Hyperion2010]

If the only problem is pop up riflemen who arent scared of the .50 cal bullets flying at them (even if the bullets miss) the MGer should have more than enough time to reset before the rifleman's sites get back to "zero" pointing that the MGer. The way rifles are held currently when going from crouch to stand would suggests that the soldier was so strong that they could completely counter the recoil with just their muscles !

 

[FYROM]

As far as maps...well, thats just taste I guess. I like longer narrower battles (but still with lots of routes). They always seems to me to promote a more intense ground taking game. Where you push back your enemy and keep pushing into his lines. IMO, the large lateral maps just mean you keep pounding away at the same few locations again and again with no penetration of either sides defenses. Seems a little weird to me. Not that these kinds of battles didn't happen, just that the deeper maps always seem to be more exciting and make it feel like an attack/defense game.

Anyhoo...can't wait for ROOST!

I agree that some of the maps could be narrower. Ponryi always seemed to be the best width/depth for an infantry only assault map, whereas RedGodofWar and Sevastopol always diluted the defenders too much in the opening objectives.

 

[Fu. Svedberg]

Ok I need to apologize to Pizzagrenadier, I didn't mean to come out and sound rude.


I in no way see myself as a master of the MG but in the mod I have seen some guys that are really godly with the MGs and I have my fullest respect for those people and they really make the MG shine and gives it the respect it deserve.

I don't like to be on the other end of their aim cause I know I will die most of the time.

The main problem is that less skilled people just tend to think that the MG is the weapon you pick up and deploy anywhere on a static position and rack up kills. This obviously is not the case and of course the MG will suck then.

When some of the more skilled MGers have their hands on that weapon on the other hand (Rattus and RedStorm to mention some) they can turn the tide and cut off parts of the map and be a real pain in the ass to get rid of (mostly meaning I need to sneak around on a far away flank for 3 min before I can pick them off).

So now when I have explained myself a bit more I will say that I do not agree with the OP

But of course you are allowed to have your own opinions and you have valid arguments (even if I don't agree with all of them).

My advice both for the MOD and Ostfront is that training gives skill but sometimes it takes a while to master certain aspects of the game. (duhhh that sounded so stupid)

 

[Golf33]

Pop-up rifleman are a pretty bad problem if you don't live next door to the server. I never get a ping under 200 due to living in Australia, and really the only things I can't handle in RO mod are pop-up riflemen, and close-in fights.

Even with a good ping of say 220, a competent rifleman in the mod can stand, fire accurately, and crouch again within a single frame - and by the time I see that happen and fire, I'm already dead.

Pop-up riflemen (as in the mod) would be mitigated by the rifle going off-target when standing from a crouch. Even better, penetration (an MG can easily penetrate a brick wall or single-width sandbag revetment) and bullet-strike effects to blind or injure the target.

Regards
33

 

[Innociv]

I think they've added a delay between standing and crouching, liek IRL, in RO:OST. Even with that i think it should have the aim offset, though.

Ducking should remain fast,but standing up should be very noticably slower.

 

[Pizzagrenadier]

Oh, no need to apologize...I came on little strong myself and was being antagonistic I think (so my apologies back ).

Mostly, I would like to see MG's fine tuned a little, with the things I mentioned...not necessarily a huge change or complete overhaul. My biggest choice would be the option I mentioned of being able to be deployed and not look down the sights until you choose to.

I shouldn't have mentioned DoD as that sets the wrong tone lol.

I agree that there are people in the mod who can dominate with them, but that seems to be the exception not the norm (unless of course in clan play which is always at a higher level of skill).

I would like to ask Rattus and Svu:

Do you think the MG's need some work, or are you happy with them as is? What would you do with them to improve/make them different?

Just curious, as I would like to hear what you think (especially since one of you is a tester ).

 

[Fu. Svedberg]

Many of my "issues" with the MG is not in the MG itself.

IMO stuff like bullet penetration would make the MG more powerful aswell as a insta "format C:" or electricution of the player when you die ingame (think of it if you get killed your mouse send a 50000V bolt trough your hand ).

Why I mention the last 2 things is because people are not afraid of running across a street, even if they know there's a MG in the other end of it. Because no matter how realistic RO is, it's just a game.
And I personally am not a fan of BiA style surpression effect, tbh I find stuff like that rather stupid because it does not add any fear of death at all only irritation/frustration.

Stuff you could do with the MG are things like stream line the usage. Make it less cumbersome to deploy being able to just run away (not needing to undeploy) if a grenade lands next to you etc.

But mostly as I have allready stated I think that MGs work pretty good as it is in the MOD. It's probably one of the more demanding weapons that take the most skill of the user in the MOD but IMO far from useless

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

Bliblablu

He's totally right.

Another things i'd like to see:

Pivoting around the bipod, not around the playermodel.

Including with that: a smaller turn radius while prone, because you can't flext that far without having to redeploy (IIRC Rainbow Six: Ravenshield has neat bipod prone animations: the legs basically stay where they are, and you just move your upper body antagonistic to your aimpoint, so it still turns at the bipod). And of course, a taller turning radius while crouching/standing supported, whith also increased ability to aim up and down. and if we are at it: when you deploy crouched, you should aim downwards or undeploy when standing up.

Also, while prone,the deploy should go slightly quicker, as you don't have to set it up very carefully.

Another thing which I hope made it into Ostfront: being able to go from prone to crouch without having to stand up first.

And lastly, as you already mentioned, pizza, the ability to "unsight" while deployed and being able to turn your head farther so you can spot enemies approaching you.

Hmm... another thing just came to my mind: being able to leave a deployed MG, to quickly evade nades or whip out your pistol, and then returning back to it.

 

[Innociv]

MG deploy should be automatic.. I believe it is in RO:OST, in fact. But I could be wrong, I'm jsut assuming.

correct me if I'm wrong, but, people used to always have the bipod down and all deploying took was placing the bipod down on the ground.. it took a mere moment.

in RO:O you can rest your gun against anything, just ahve to ahve hte gun near and objct and it automatical detects it and rests without having to press a button.. I'd think MG's would work like that.

And yeah.. It'd like the see pivoting around the bipod aswell. I knew one game that did that, but forgot it.
And project, being limited in your turnigni s meh.. I think RO mod already did that. You should be able to quickly move left-right to a certain ammount(when upper body is jsut moving) and then you can move your legs to slowly turn further once you go to the limits of your body moving.

Being able to look above the sights would be super-great.

Just those 3 things is all i'd like to see, with that 1 thing maybe already being in. (at least.. it shoudl be.. i don't see why it wouldn't be made simple like that and work like the other guns.)

 

[Pizzagrenadier]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I forgot about the turning on the bipod idea. I have always thought that would be really cool. Might be tough to animate, but it would add so much to the look.

I like the autodeploy when going prone as in most cases, you do have the bipod down in combat, so simply dropping to the ground would be enough.

It might be neat to have the deploy bipod work no matter what your stance...

Make the bipod function independently of the position essentially. Hit f and if you are standing you put the bipod out (sort of like you do with a bayo now). If you drop to the ground with the bipod closed (say you start the round like that) you have to deploy. If you drop to the ground with the bipod out you are ready to go. I think you should still have to deploy when you are trying to rest the MG on a sandbag or window however, as having it do it automatically for you might be a pain when trying to adjust where you want to deploy it.

It wouldn't change the game much, but it would just add another level of functionality without being overcomplicated.

I also like the idea of being able to get up and run without undeploying. That never made sense to me...a real MG gunner would grab his gun as is and haul ass!

I don't know about abandoning the gun, I don't think that is necessary really...just grab it and go.

I like the smaller turn zone while prone too...that makes having an independent free look more useful...you can turn your head while prone further than you can your gun while aiming. This would mean you have the flexibility you need to play an MG realistically and tactically.

I could see it now: Drop prone with bipod out, ready to go. You scan the area for enemies...you spot a few moving to your right, you go into IS and light up the area. Lift your head back from the sights to see if you dropped them. With your head up you spot some more movement so without even sighting you let a few rounds rip unsighted and watch the fall of the tracers...bam, got one. The next guy makes a dash for it and you cooly look down the sigh and squeeze off a burst, cutting him down as he runs.

Makes MG's more user friendly without overpowering them.

 

[Lizardhands]

The problem with MG accuracy in RO is not the recoil, it's the huge fire-cone.

 

[Hyperion2010]

The problem with MG accuracy in RO is not the recoil, it's the huge fire-cone.

How big is it?

 

[Wolfsglen]

MGs are definitely weapons of skill, no doubt about that, but i still have flashbacks of just how well they can lock down a section of map in the right hands I've seen whole games or matches that had their outcome decided by the MG, though not often admittedly - but when they do, they do, and god help anyone who gets near them.