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INF style projectile penetration mutator available!

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I did not watch the entire film, but in general that is the point of penetration, you are not save behind walls, especially if the are of an american type as in this film (central european houses are generall far more solid).

Well Beppo and geo are members of a community themselves - with all the work that is involved - that is why (I guess) they showed a proof of concept, so that others can finish the job, while they will return to the work they currently focus on.

@Wilsonam as far as I understood it is easier to code that for you, as you simply can change ROBullet (see first post).
 
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geobob : in one of Your answers i noticed something like notes about update to mutator with surface type detection etc.
> any plan to release that updated version too or was it just pure experimental stage? :) ?

thx , anyway i hope You take seriously chalenge offer from Wilsonam and develop it further ... {i hope for}

about question why not put it in beta / main code base etc ...
one of reasons is that it create another thing to test, watch, update while there are (simplified) many critical and tons less critical things with higher priority to resolve first ... of course if they not exist then it become different story ...
 
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What we wanted to do is a proof of concept of a penetration mutator for RO. We did what said we would do. The rest is just experimenting and playing around for my own enjoyment (I have more fun modding then game then actually playing it :D)

If I feel it works well enough, I might release a future version with new features. But don't expect anything.
I hardly see myself taking time to mod a game a do not play, if not only for experimentation of features and bits and pieces on a different engine.

Wilsonam, thank you for your post. Let me be clear, I fully understand your position. Your approach to issues like this one is both very reasonable and wise. It is true that in a modding community, you have less pressure regarding stability and having a game as polished as it could be *cough* *looks down at EA*. ;)

Telling your community that supported you all the way from mod to commercial game that a feature is not getting into the game because it is not a priority for your team, because it is not in the gameplay philosophy you are looking for or because your team simply doesn't have the ressources (e.g. all your coders and testers are occupied with other more important issues) is fully understandable and I will always respect that. I fully respect a team that does what it said it would and follow the original philosophy they layed out before them. I respect such a team especially more than a team that goes with the wind and try to do all the community/fanboys biddings.

What I have a problem with, and I said it before, is when a feature is turned down on technical basis that the community does not undersand (or the most part of it). Use of technical knowledge should always done wisely when speaking with someone that does not have this knowledge. They may have difficulty interpreting your words and nuancing them. Furthermore, when a technical argumentation is mostly based on assumptions and flawed logical links between different technical aspects, I have more trouble with this.

As both a coder and an engineer who understands fairly well these technical concepts, I'm having a hard time sitting back and ignoring a situation like this one.

Maybe this is what happens when we fall into argumentation laziness. "Hey, can you please do this in your game" - "uh no, it's not possible because of [insert random technical diaclect no one fully understands]" - "oh! ok then". It's much easier for the coder to answer something like this than to discuss more political reasons like you do, Wilsonam. Been there, done that... And not too proud about it.

Anyway, I'm sorry it went so far really. Like I told beppo on our forums, I think that other thread went too far. This is not a game of who is right and who is wrong. This was not the point of my initial intervention in the other thread nor it is the point of me doing a mutator to show how penetration could be implemented with little overhead in Unreal 2.5.


Not to self: Don't do long edits like that. :p
 
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Actually we copy/pasted the 20 penetration code lines over from INF and edited it as needed to get the simple version you can see now.

Most time was spend in checking the RO codes and digging into the UT2k4 mutator stuff again... was years since geo and myself have actually checked out these codes. So we at first had to find a proper way to replace a projectile. Then it was just copy/paste from the RO default properties, nothing more.

Adding the actual penetration codes 'as is' to the ROBullet class needs about two minutes of time and to compile, tho.

And we started with this actually after the other thread on this forum got closed, geo and myself got in contact by using a messenger software and another community member allowing me to download the SDK by using his account details.
So, everything combined with chatting, coding, testing and posting took us only a few hours.
Nice Beppo, now we just need to get the two sides chilled down so they could have conversations about adding it by standard to RO.

It really pains my heart to see such talented modders mocking up eachother. :(
 
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It works pretty well! There are of course some flaws since it was just a quick work, but on the whole it was cool to be able to see some Russians run into a building, lose track of them, then see a door start to move and be able to spray, ignoring the door. It doesn't seem like much, but it really added a lot to the experience, IMO, even though they were just bots (realy players wouldn't be so lemming about it, LOL). I can only imagine how intense it would be to hear footsteps creaking on wood on the other side of a wall, see a door open (and you're behind the door) wait a second, then unload, being rewarded with a dead body (or maybe you get sprayed yourself?!).

Very cool.


@ TWI - I don't think anyone doubts your sincerity. You know this code better than anyone (as it pertains to RO, not speaking of modding in general) and you know what you've tried and haven't. I'm sure that most everyone appreciates the relatively limited resources that you're working with (as in compared to say, EA, who has no excuses :p) and all the great work you *still* manage to put out. Hearts and cookies n' ****, everyone :)
 
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Hurray! Now everybody is friendly!

And just to go on, I'm with Alan here, if somebody fleshes this out before we have a chance to (it could be awhile before we have time to devote towards this as we have other plans as well and don't wish to push them backwards at this time) I will back alan in taking it before the team.
 
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I dont want to step to any side but I have to say that this mutator plays amasing. I still have INF on my pc and play it from time to time and I thoroughly know wich genious features it offers in terms of gameplay and physics. I dont see harm in beppo's and geogob's effort to show something that I know many players wish for, even from mod days. It is unbelievable for me to hear that dev's are concerned that bullet penetration would change balance of the game. Sometimes, between the lines I can almost read that TW switched "realism" with "balance" in their dictionary.

I understand that RO is now a retail product and on that level you have to be more responsible toward your customers but as beppo suggested, this could be developed as a mutator, so it can be easily removed from server. Surely some admins would run it regardless of potential lag it produced, and I'd play there too :) I don't have my hopes high for this as I do see that this has been posted in Ideas and Suggestions, but it would be a shame if nobody developed this to some higher playable state.
 
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I sure hope you decide to take the challenge Geogob and Beppo, it's obvious that TW have a lot on their hands and we wouldn't see this feature implemented by them for some time. I mean you even have some of the devs backing you on trying to get this feature's foot in the door. I understand that you guys are probably working on various projects and such, but I think many of us would greatly appreciate the work you could do on this matter.

I agree with you guys on having TW release b.penetration as an "offical mutator" though. It not only provides insurance for the devs incase it's recieved badly, but it's a good way to do most of your testing for free. Granted that there would be a lot of hitches in this scenario, it would still be a great way to do it.

Also Ron, thanks for the vid, that was a great watch. Most of those weapons aka M9 I didn't expect it to penetrate to such a degree!
 
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I wrote a bash script that took over most of the work to add new weapons to this mutator.
As it is only a script some weapons probably won't work proberly, but I added also the feature that the weapons you pick up work as well.
If Beppo does not mind I'll upload the mutator here, but keep in mind I only added weapons and made it possible that weapons you pick up also penetrate.
So there is still the same penetration value for all weapons.

PS.: No, I'm not a coder, I won't finish this mutator, I only looked at the source Beppo posted here and made up my mind.
 
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Mat, If beppo is happy with this, I do not mind on my part.

The version I have here on the mutator adjusts penetration in function of material surface type and bullet velocity. Maybe that could be merged to demonstrate how it could be done with material handling (there definately are other ways to do it). It's only one classes that changes.

For per-bullet penetration factor, this is easy. The only thing needed is to have a "BulletFactor" in the super class that would be defined in each bullet type subclasses to adjust the penetration depth depending on the bullet. Personally, I would consider a factor per material, but as a first approximation, a simple factor per bullet would be ok.

So, all this is very nice, but it is dependant on the projectile speed and the material surface type. If the speeds are not realitically scaled (I'm no saying this is the case, just to be clear on that) or if some materials surface types are not well defined, this will not work well.

Fom what I saw while testing, bullet velocities are consistant with their real-life counterparts. Well, not in absolute, but relatively speaking (comparing the MPs with the G41 and the MGs).
 
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So, with me not owning RO I'm a bit limited in terms of testing the stuff online.

I would like to copy/paste most if not all infantry weapons currently available and would add a way so that you folks (the community) can play around with one value that would represent a general penetration factor that affects all projectiles the same and a per projectile value/factor that would represent a combined BulletWeight * ProjectileScalingFactor then that represents the general penetration potential of this specific projectile.

Problem is that neither geo nor myself are experts for the WWII era and the used projectiles of the featured weapons.

So we would only be able to give you the toys.... the correct values would need to come from the RO community or whoever thinks has the guts and knowledge to present fitting values.

I should be able to present you these codes tomorrow or friday night at the latest then. I just need an ok from some RO community folks to get these values together. I guess some RO community members actually have this knowledge...

So all I need is an 'ok' from these community members.... else it would just be a waste of time, tho.

So, post your comments here, thx.

Oh and if RO features weapons or better projectiles that have special abilities in terms of penetration depending on the material that was hit, then please name them and the material they slice like butter or that they never will be able to penetrate no matter how thin this material may be.... or whatever else projectile specific and material based you may know, thx.


And just to add soemthing to the gameplay changes...
Hiding behind a wall or crate can now be deadly.
Friring down or up thru some stairs now actually is able to hit the target you are pointing your weapon at and you do not need to be lucky to score the shot that's fitting between the steps if there actually is some room for the projectile to pass thru.
 
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