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I think so

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#2
If you mean all levels should allow perk levelling I disagree. Admittedly it doesn't affect us if someone grinds up their perk in a levelling designed map, but it is essentially exploiting. The SDK is a feature of the game, but allowing people to deisgn levels where they are completely safe from specimen attacks (which actually has been done alot before KEPT stepped in) to progress through the games levels is an exploit and against the spirit of the game.

Making levels deliberately easy or glitchy, or even ones that just have unintentional exploits in them that players exploit to level up is pretty much the same as hacking the game and just setting your perk levels to level 6. I dunno about you but I personally hate hackers, and exploiters, and pretty much anyone who doesn't play in the spirit of the game. So if there is a method of preventing them doing so, I am 100% in support of it.

If you mean everything thats on the whitelist should be removed, there is a good list of stuff out there. Alot of level designers like Dex, Fel, HateMe, yoyo to name but a few have provided us with some really cool maps. Keep searching around :)

Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with easy maps for the more casual crowd, even though KF is meant to be challenging, I realise there are a sparce variency in hardcoreness between players, but the maps should not provide a ludicrus bottle neck that is nearly impregnable (like the orignal Doom2 maps), and should have it so players at least occassionally die.

In a perfect world we would trust people to make legitimate maps and we wouldn't bat an eyelid at them. However the fact is there are people who take the piss unfortunately and thats what the whitelist is here to prevent. It sucks that it needs to be done, but the fact is it needs to be done :)

J* out :)
 
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#5
C_Gibby said:
Gibby has left the thread.
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You were never in the thread to begin with.

This may not be the right comparison, but in games like TF2 for achievements, there are servers out there to exploit getting them. Yes I know it's no where close to being the same as Leveling, BUT the same thing that I'm about to say DOES apply.

Whether there are leveling exploitable maps or not, the people will choose which ones to go to. Many Gamers DO tend to level legitimately, granted that the leveling scale is not so difficult. I don't know if some of you have noticed, but the medic perk from 5 to 6 is like growing up from 12 years old to 30 in one year. Now I'm not complaining about it. I'm just saying some people won't like the grind, so they resort to either doing a thing like "Siren Tag Team Healing" or go to Friendly Fire Servers. That could technically be called an exploit too, and even if you don't use those particular things, there is always getting attacked by a clot on beginner whilst your friend heals you. =/

Another thing that bothered me is that you said "KF is meant to be challenging". Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant something along the lines of "It's not a game where you just walk through suicidal with a knife alone and kill everything instantly" That being said, various games can be meant to be played in one way, and be taken in a whole other direction. It makes me recall one story of Smash Bros being a gag game with nothing serious behind it, yet it's one of the most popular nintendo games out there.

I'm just saying that the white list isn't doing many people good, especially the map designers. I know many mappers who have very intricate levels that can be played without anyone finding obvious exploits, just to have a fun time and level at the same time, but people find exploits (Some times they can't be avoided for the sake of the amazing map), and it will get the good old toss into the scrap bin, never having seen the light of day on KF. It takes away the mentality of "Oh I'm just playing West London to farm, I don't really want to be on this lvl cuz I've seen it a million times"

That is just my view on things and I want to hear other opinions and defend what I stand for in a rational way without resorting to (Like many have) using swear words and caps lock.
 
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#8
smalldemon said:
I second Gibby's exit. I think white listing is what makes the game still fun and a more survival-type game, rather than a pure pwnage game, wich would suck.
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What I got from this was "Any other maps that are not white listed are no fun and not worth taking time at all to play to see what creativeness people have to offer to the community in terms of interesting ideas and different views on games."
 
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#9
I tend to play non-whitelisted maps alot, just because I find the fun, but I know why they are not whitelisted wether it's a respawning LAW, a huge exploit or a silly ammount of ammo around the place.
But your points about grinding medic by using friendly fire servers is valid but you need a partner and if you try it on anyone else you probably be greeted by a headshot or very quickly be kick by an admin.:p
It's a shame the whitelist exists but I know why and thats to stop perk grinding and game breaking exploits,I find that a good enough reason for it.
 
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#13
Ryumao said:
This may not be the right comparison, but in games like TF2 for achievements, there are servers out there to exploit getting them. Yes I know it's no where close to being the same as Leveling, BUT the same thing that I'm about to say DOES apply.

 I'm just saying that the white list isn't doing many people good, especially the map designers. I know many mappers who have very intricate levels that can be played without anyone finding obvious exploits, just to have a fun time and level at the same time, but people find exploits (Some times they can't be avoided for the sake of the amazing map), and it will get the good old toss into the scrap bin, never having seen the light of day on KF. It takes away the mentality of "Oh I'm just playing West London to farm, I don't really want to be on this lvl cuz I've seen it a million times"

That is just my view on things and I want to hear other opinions and defend what I stand for in a rational way without resorting to (Like many have) using swear words and caps lock.
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I would like to point out that Valve are cracking down on level achievement servers, and things like idle servers saw people get REALLY punished :)

I see your point really, it is a shame that alot of maps get scrapped, however as a member of the KEPT I can say we look for a number of things in a map. There are glitches and exploits in official maps too, but what we do oass alot more maps than we used to now.

If say there are what we call level 1 exploits where a player is safe from some specimens but not others we allow these sort of spots to pass, as long as there aren't too many of them. Level 2 exploits are where the player is totally safe from enemy fire, and is an immediate fail on the map.

The problem is although it may seem like alot of players level legit, it is stunning how many servers are set up to grind perks. The sad thing is they are usually pretty busy servers. So I'm sad to say the statement "most players level legit" is very hard to believe. I'd not be suprised if at least half the community has grinded their perks up in these types of servers. THAT is what the white list is there to fight against.

I have to admit, lately there has been alot of aggression in the forums. I'm not sure why, but its very odd.
 
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#14
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#15
I'll have to check up in the TF2 thing, since I stopped playing it a few weeks ago.

As for the white list stopping easy perk grinding, I know that's what you strive for. I can understand that at the base of every thing. The concept that I don't think most people grasp is that the white list is there mainly because of how hard it is to lvl perks. Now I know no one can do anything about that besides the game developers and what not.

I have another question that hasn't occurred to me until now, but did TWI have a white list when it first came out? How about after the update? Was it there before the lvl 6 perk? After? I think I need to brush up on my history of Killing Floor so I can better explain why I think the white list should be removed or if you can change my mind entirely.
 
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#16
Yeah KF has always had a whitelist, but what happened was TWI didn't have time to check the maps and just whitelisted everything and people started deliberately making exploit ridden maps, or even concentrated level up maps.

KF-ConcertHall is a primary example of the first and KF-Levelling is a primary example of the second. Specimens would group up inside a locked room in front of players for them to just mow them down and boost their damage. Once those were caught people started making servers that ran Doom2 or Defence 24/7 because these maps were notoriously easy and very good for levelling.

After than a bunch of us in the forums (Omar I think started it) decided it was starting to take the piss and decided to organise a group dedicated to ensuring maps released onto the whitelist were in the spirit of Killing Floor. As I say we aren't as punishing as we used to be, and we do test maps in beta stages to help mappers fix exploits during development. Ant exploits we do find we report to the mapper and encourage him to try an fix the exploit to improve the map. SO it most defiantrely isn't jsut a case of just saying "No, jog on"

I do see your point, extra content is extra content, and people have put alot of wrk into legitimate maps that unfortuantely didn't make the list. Problem is if there was no whitelist these kind of maps would come back. Its like hackers in CS:S, its pointless and retarded, but people do it anyway.
 
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#17
the map whitelist was created July 2nd of 2009......last year, about 2 months after the game released (May 2009). the basic reason why it was created was because before that, any map allowed perk progression, which allowed mappers to created maps like KF-Leveling and KF-LevelMyPerks where players could cheat their way to fast perks. the list would contain only approved maps that were bugfree and polished enough, when compared to the stock content, and those maps would allow for perk progression.

TW created the list that initially only contained the original stock maps and then mappers submitted their work to get approved. the main problem was that with so many maps for TW to test (no offense TW dudes that tested) a lot of issues with many maps just got overlooked....basically halfassed testing lead to terrible maps being allowed to have their bugs massively exploited. the biggest problem many people began to notice was that the specimen-only mutators would be loaded up in conjunction with "grinding maps" and exponentially increase the effects of abusing exploits. even the bugs in stock content that TW wasn't able to fix due to be overloaded with work (like on their other game ROHOS) would run the risk of being exploited with the addition of the mutators and thus resulting in many balance issues with gameplay because of insane ammounts of players who could level their perks in a fraction of the intended time.

omar started the KEPT group to help test the current whitelisted maps and test new maps awaiting approval. while KEPT isn't officially a "sanctioned" entity within TW, they do read and consider reviews when they are doing their own testing.

low and behold the list is what it is today.

appoligies for ripping you in the other poll thread....it would have been nice to know that you really had no idea about the history with these issues....something i'd expect people who say "i've playing this game for a long time and have a good grasp on it" would already know. ;)
 
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#18
Mmm that's interesting to hear. I suspected as much though. It still doesn't change my mind to the fact that the concept of "Free to play" should be put into effect.

Most people think that if there is an exploit, everyone will use it. Mentality that gets us no where. But it's human nature to not trust or believe in people since we're let down all the time. You'd be amazed though at games where you find that people avoid leveling exploits, such as myself.

Countless times I could have succumbed to the easy way of leveling medic. :( It's one of the reasons why I go on Friendly fire servers now a days. You can freely kill anyone who is just being stupid. And that brought me to an idea of making an event for Team Death Match. If you are interested, go to Http://www.BWHGaming.com We will be getting a mod for it up and running soon, and slots are reserved by first come first serve, so sign up and enjoy our 18 or so servers of Doom 2 Re-re-white listed :cool:
 
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