Hell on Earth players feedback

[Crips]

An idea that would make hoe more fun and challenging and wouldn't take much work to do is just to add more zeds per wave and more big zed spawns at the same time.

I already can hear people crying then about not enough ammo...then TWI must buff the ammo again...and then there will be too much railgun shots etc. and then the game is easier than ever. But of course i like the idea.

It's probably different for you than for me, but I don't really want to expect to make it to the boss on the difficulty level I play . Getting to it should be a rarity, in my opinion; winning much less so. I like it when KF is fast and dirty. If I get to the boss often, I up the difficulty, because I find it too easy.

+1 and here is the problem, there is nothing higher than heaven on earth

 

[Tagasaki]

there is nothing higher than heaven on earth

LOL you got that right.

 

[Zidious G]

Nope. In KF1 you get wave 10 over 340 zeds.

Could be due to performance issues.

 

[2Clicks]

Personally I think the 15% making it to HoE is likely a red-herring.

1. I think the primary factor for all those fails is that HoE is too tough for pub. games. The problem with so much apparent failing is that groups of strangers dont play as a team. They tend to play as individuals and thus they are more likely to fail because they dont help each other.

2. Another issue with HoE tends to be perk selection. Sure in the right hands any/ or most perk combinations could work. But more often than not unless you have sharpies, demo/zerk combo and a medic then youre asking for trouble.

3. Im wondering just how many games had x number of players fail? I bet you that when HoE was played with more than 3 but less than 6 players there were probably more wins than defeats. Why? My theory is that on dual FP spawns (+ sc for good measure) a four+ man team has a good chance of surviving. But Less than that and the odds probably plummet unless they are good demos/sharps. In addition Ive also noticed that 6man teams seem to get larger spawns on end game waves (7+) which is probably a result of the game conductor. Maybe Im wrong!

4. No good medic. = No win. Most of the time. If a team doesnt have a medic by wave 6 then they are likely to die unless the team is comprised of at least a demo and afew sharpies that know what they are doing. Especially for dual fp spawns. Perhaps have some sort of reminder in game that someone with level 20+ medic switches to that perk after wave 5.

5. Alot depends on the map. Some maps are just easier to survive, kite and regroup. I wonder how many of those fails happened on Paris or Hostile Grounds, compared to say; Manor, Catacombs or Labs? Which I would say are harder on HoE if a good perk combo isnt present.

6. How many of those fails had 1 or 2 players until wave 6+ and then got a few players join late game and cause a massive inbalance to the group? Esp. given in those games the weapons that players were started/carrying on the wave they failed on.

7. Speaking of which - how many of those games did the group die in late wave? Most likely due to a lack of ammo for their primary weapons - rather than being killed by a mistake or just being overwhelmed.

8. I think though likely the biggest cause of fails has to be the spawning pattern. If a team is camping and happen to get a 2fp spawn (+ sc) its what spawns come directly after and where they are in relation to the team that causes the biggest problems. Players either run away and leave others to die or, they run away and die, leaving those that stood their ground to get swarmed and eventually run out of ammo so they have to kite and look for amo.

9. Zedporting is probably the biggest factor though. Esp. for kiting players. Its too easy to get trapped by a group of crawlers or stalkers into a parts of the map that jut out and you die in seconds literally.

10. Too many players that are not of the appropriate level or are essentially "a faked player" i.e. someone who got to level 20+ through the perklvlingmaps. These ppl either get carried or cause some catastrophe that the rest of the group can never recover from - even if they save that particular wave.

11. From my experience I still think the bosses are not quite there yet on HoE - at least for the majority of players. Even good players get killed to early - 1 to 2nd heal for both bosses.

Personally I dont think you will be able to do much to bridge the gap between HoE and Sui. I just think you have to set your levels to what good players want from HoE and have the weaker players either get better or get lucky - and join a team so they are carried to the end. Usually dying at the boss.

Not sure if you want to it but if youre going to nerf HoE to the point of making it more winnable then you should consider a difficulty above that. Perhaps one that doesnt have achievements but gives players an ingame badge next to their name - for truly hardcore players.

This could be a non-intrusive way of giving ppl the chance to win on HoE and having something that pros/vets can get their teeth into. Something that is hardcore. Something that perhaps can have a set number of faked-players to increase the number of spawned enemies.

The only gamey tactic Ive seen used (alot) on sui and hoe is the zerkwall. Basically on Farmhouse, Hostile Grds, Prison & Catacombs specificially you can hide behind the medic healed zerker and as long as you have the dps to ddestroy the threats you can survive to the boss. However alot of players simply dont live long enough on the early boss waves to make winning easy. Mostly its just plain dumb decision-making. Rather than run in good time, they stay and shoot until their mags/clips are empty or dont back away as tehy are shooting. For me its the biggest problem with players. Its like they feel they need to be up close to kill a zed - even with firearms! ^^

EDIT:

12) One other thing is that alot of players just do not understand the role of their perk in a team. For instance Ive seen mandos, firebugs and slingers shooting big guys when we have an RPG armed demo or a sharpie with a railgun. Why is this so....!? It beats me! The only thing I can think it is that they just want to be the one that kills the biggie OR they crap their pants and shoot the biggest thing coming at them that moment. That may be a good idea but without a medic who throws nades down in the middle of the approaching melee alot of the time ppl will die because the approaching horde will just overwhelm them. So part of theissue is likely the cause of tactics.

Ive forgotten the number of times as a railgun armed sharpie, no one keeps the trash from distracting me when Im about to shoot an sc or fp! ^^

 

[Furious Imbecile]

I personally would like to see a more random distribution of spawns for Suicidal/HoE. I'd like to have a chance of any zed spawn in any wave. Especially Scrakes and Fleshpounds.

Make them more numerous during matches and actual surprises instead of being "raid bosses" you need to wipe at certain times. I feel allowing them (and other uncommon zeds) to spawn at any given wave with an increasing chance would make the harder difficulties feel much challenging and hectic.
Imo you could make them have less health and increase spawn values.

Additionally remove the announcement roars for them when they do spawn and let them have the drop on the squad until seen.

And yes, not really HoE related, but we need...

1. The old KF Fleshpound mechanics back to make them manageable.

2. Doors and welding need to be useful again instead of just clutch Sc/Fp/boss escapes.

3. Zed teleport gone unless a zed is completely stuck.

 

[2Clicks]

And yes, not really HoE related, but we need...

1. The old KF Fleshpound mechanics back to make them manageable.

2. Doors and welding need to be useful again instead of just clutch Sc/Fp/boss escapes.

3. Zed teleport gone unless a zed is completely stuck.

1. Are they not manageable now?
2. They can be valuable when you are being chased or were at least; until they removed the welder from the equipment droplist. Now my clumsy fingers get in the way of each other before I can even get the welder out!
3. The zedporting should not be anywhere near the play but only at spawn points that are a further one radius/level further removed from the main group of survivors; so that they dont appear on top of them.

 

[neddie]

It's probably different for you than for me, but I don't really want to expect to make it to the boss on the difficulty level I play . Getting to it should be a rarity, in my opinion; winning much less so. I like it when KF is fast and dirty. If I get to the boss often, I up the difficulty, because I find it too easy.

And is not twenty percent a rarity? This is considering I play with strong teams, not with random players, with random players I would expect an even lower rate of breakthrough. I agree with you, and I don't expect to make it - the point is that it is a challenge but I also have enough success to vary the experience and thus provide a reason to keep coming back. People respond to mixed positive and negative feedback, adversity and accomplishment, and there really needs to be some level of each. I don't want it easier, but it seems equally unwise to make it too much harder. That said, most of my suggestions/input on other suggestions were directed at making it more difficult and varied.

 

[hal-]

Given that there's no way to create a difficulty level that is going to please everyone -- someone will always want a greater challenge -- why not leave HOE roughly where it is and release a new "endless" mode? Left 4 Dead had a nice take on it where, as waves progressed, the game would start spawning more and more high-tier enemies until the team was eventually overwhelmed.

Throw in a few achievements for reaching various waves (10, 15, 20, etc) and you're done. There's always a greater challenge and the standard (campaign?) mode doesn't have to be pushed to the point where it's so punishing that only a very small percentage of players have a chance to complete the levels on HOE.

From a coding standpoint, it couldn't be too difficult, could it?

Edit: and I see from the community tracker that an endless mode is something TWI is looking at for post-launch. Problem solved, for the most part, I would think.

 

[Escadin]

1. The old KF Fleshpound mechanics back to make them manageable.

I find fleshpounds to be very managable right now. Even trivial if a sharpshooter is around.

 

[neddie]

Given that there's no way to create a difficulty level that is going to please everyone -- someone will always want a greater challenge -- why not leave HOE roughly where it is and release a new "endless" mode? Left 4 Dead had a nice take on it where, as waves progressed, the game would start spawning more and more high tier enemies until the team was eventually overwhelmed.

Throw in a few achievements for reaching various waves (10, 15, 20, etc) and you're done. There's always a greater challenge and the standard (campaign?) mode doesn't have to be pushed to the point where it's so punishing that only a very small percentage of players have a chance to complete the levels on HOE.

From a coding standpoint, it couldn't be too difficult, could it?

I think there are two different people working on an Endless Mode modification at present. There are some tricky aspects if I recall, including; either having traders open during play intermittently or having intermittent trader waves, moving away from the "wave" model to a time model or just having endless waves, integrating the game conductor, manipulating spawns, etcetera.

 

[neddie]

I find fleshpounds to be very managable right now. Even trivial if a sharpshooter is around.

Ah, but that will be mitigated when Sharpshooter is less powerful, and thus less favoured.

 

[neddie]

5. Alot depends on the map. Some maps are just easier to survive, kite and regroup. I wonder how many of those fails happened on Paris or Hostile Grounds, compared to say; Manor, Catacombs or Labs? Which I would say are harder on HoE if a good perk combo isnt present.

7. Speaking of which - how many of those games did the group die in late wave? Most likely due to a lack of ammo for their primary weapons - rather than being killed by a mistake or just being overwhelmed.

I honestly don't see a lot of random HoE games open, and where I do see them, the same six or seven dozen people crop up over and over. HoE creates community, in a sense, and this has to be a factor in considering the play interaction between players.

To these points, I think we are missing the fact that a lot of HoE players move into custom maps for additional variety. I think my last HoE game was on Mountain Arena, my last HoE win was on Dead in Limbo. Furthermore, custom maps do not always have well designed ammunition spawns - those are good examples, but others are less so.

 

[Chyros]

By the way, I think there should be a separate hardcore setting that you can toggle on any difficulty level. This would take away things like Scrake and Fleshpound announce sounds, teammate icons that you can see through walls, chest flashlights (only weapon flashlights can be used), etc. I think this would add challenge in a very elegant way while still leaving the player these conveniences if they so desire.

 

[neddie]

By the way, I think there should be a separate hardcore setting that you can toggle on any difficulty level. This would take away things like Scrake and Fleshpound announce sounds, teammate icons that you can see through walls, chest flashlights (only weapon flashlights can be used), etc. I think this would add challenge in a very elegant way while still leaving the player these conveniences if they so desire.

I agree. Perhaps there could be a whole panel so the player or the host can deselect the individual pieces they dislike.

 

[Furious Imbecile]

1. Are they not manageable now?

I find fleshpounds to be very managable right now. Even trivial if a sharpshooter is around.

I'm not saying they're not manageable. I was simply saying that the KF1 mechanic for them was better and allows them to be managed better. Poor choice of words from my part.

 

[2Clicks]

I honestly don't see a lot of random HoE games open, and where I do see them, the same six or seven dozen people crop up over and over. HoE creates community, in a sense, and this has to be a factor in considering the play interaction between players.

To these points, I think we are missing the fact that a lot of HoE players move into custom maps for additional variety. I think my last HoE game was on Mountain Arena, my last HoE win was on Dead in Limbo. Furthermore, custom maps do not always have well designed ammunition spawns - those are good examples, but others are less so.

That may well be true. Ive dabbled on those maps too but the important thing (at least for this discussion, I imagine) is that custom maps are outside the scope of this particular subject. At least for the purpose of balancing HoE. Moreover those custom maps that arent at the level of "official" maps or "officially buffed" maps.

But yeah your point about creating community is very relevant. In KF1 a game that was x years old and had a matured community even when I started playing it (selling at £5 on sale) cannot be and should not be compared with the community in this game. Because the majority of players are nowhere near the level of players in KF1. Nor are there the same number of players transitioning through the difficulties. At least getting to the level where they can play HoE.

If anything - in the HoE games I play there are very few ppl that actually take the time to explain what ppl are doing wrong.

- Thats just a feeling/opinion of course. From my near 1000h of playing the game.

I'm not saying they're not manageable. I was simply saying that the KF1 mechanic for them was better and allows them to be managed better. Poor choice of words from my part.

Okay. Granted they are different but I dont think in the majority of cases the result is any different. Apples and oranges. In this game FP and Scrakes have to be handled alot differently. But get good players together with the right tools to do the job and FP and SC are trivialized.

If anything the scrake needs to be "refined" a tad to let zerkers block more easily. From my experience (and granted its not exhaustive) zerkers take far too much damage through no fault of their own against an SC. Even if usually its against a trash horde that support, mando, fb or slingers dont deal with, when they should - because tehy are to busy also focusing on the SC.

FPs and SCs can be trivialized alot by certain perks... but it depends again on the map, the camp point, the nearby spawn points, weapons/ammo to hand etc...

 

[Ju5t1ce]

Looks like my first few posts didnt go through, anyone knows if something can prevent it from appearing? So in short - was playing HoE from very early versions of the game, here is my 2 cents on what is making the difficulty atm much lower than it was before.
1) Sharpshooter balance
Duration of the stun and offperking weapons (the fact that u can stun using ss weapons with other perks) are the most important things about sharpshooter balance. Having them set properly will make the difficulty and challenge much more on point. The damage of ss weapons is also a little bit high - offperk m14 kills scrakes with 21 shots and stuns him after 4 - that basically allows any 0 lvl perk or medic deal with scrakes super easy, since the team only needs to help u with 1 more shot.
2) New solo combos are way too easy
Dealing with big threats solo should be a huge deal, because you are doing the entire team job alone. Let's take GS for example: killing a 6p HoE Fp is a huge deal for entire team, howeever atm solo gs magnum mindless spam deals with fp/scrakes super easy (spam 9 magnums at fp while it rages, or 7 at scrakes while he stumbles). This new combo allows good gs players to deal with 2 FPs alone and even clear some minor zeds with deagles on the way. Before it required much more: knockdown control, wake up windows shooting, bash animations knowledge and much more hits (10+ deagle shots; 7+ magnum shots for kd combo) to bring down fp solo, and it feels like it should be that way if someone deals with big threats alone. All new demo/supp/berserker evis combos for fp fall uder the same category. We can also look at old comm/supp/demo scrake combos, it was much harder to kill a scrake before - they were a big threat for entire team.

15% succes rate should be approached really carefull in my opinion. Coordinated groups can now get through HoE much easier than it was before and good players are still able to beat it without much communication as well. You shouldn't be able to get into a random pub HoE game and expect to win it easily. HoE is the hardest difficulty of the game, so it should be balanced around people, who are ready for the horrors this difficulty can provide. There are other difficulties in the game for everyone else. I am sure that TW can make HoE a true hardcore delight, that will feel very rewarding if u are able beat it.

 

[Gladius]

2) New solo combos are way too easy
Dealing with big threats solo should be a huge deal, because you are doing the entire team job alone. Let's take GS for example: killing a 6p HoE Fp is a huge deal for entire team, howeever atm solo gs magnum mindless spam deals with fp/scrakes super easy (spam 9 magnums at fp while it rages, or 7 at scrakes while he stumbles). This new combo allows good gs players to deal with 2 FPs alone and even clear some minor zeds with deagles on the way. Before it required much more: knockdown control, wake up windows shooting, bash animations knowledge and much more hits (10+ deagle shots; 7+ magnum shots for kd combo) to bring down fp solo, and it feels like it should be that way if someone deals with big threats alone. All new demo/supp/berserker evis combos for fp fall uder the same category. We can also look at old comm/supp/demo scrake combos, it was much harder to kill a scrake before - they were a big threat for entire team.

Here we go again... The old „group spam“ vs. solo takedown debate.


Gunslinger got buffed but still I don't see many people ingame that can do it that easily as you describe it. On the testmap it might become relatively easy after a while but in an actual game it's a completely different beast. To be able to hit the fleshpound in the head for 9 times you need a lot of support from your team. If someone is taking away the aggro (AI targeting player) from you, by bad positioning, you won't be able to combo. If your team doesn't shield you from trash, while you pull the FP in a place where you can safely combo, you won't be able to do so. Successful gunslinger combos are very dependant of good teammates that don't act counterproductive. And that's the reason why not many players are able to pull that off ingame, or willing to take the risk.


If you make SC/FP super tough to solo, then group spam becomes mandatory and that results in chaotic gameplay. We had that before and the game fortunately evolved beyond that. Not everyone enjoys that and that we have now options to safely deal with SC/FP makes my gameplay experience way better than before.


I do agree that sharps needs an overhaul, but that this is already in the making, was already announced.

 

[xmrmeow]

I find the overall mechanic of zeds constantly sprinting on HOE to be very hectic compared to the first game.

Due to fast moving zeds and very wobbly moving animations on zeds, the players can't really ever hold out in one spot. They either have to be on the move constantly, or do a cheese tactic like zerk walling.

Other mechanics like how the doors function in this game also contribute to not being able to hold out in one spot as opposed to staying on the move. These changes include doors having health in addition to weld integrity, and doors not respawning after each wave. If doors respawned and the health was at least visible, it would make doors a lot more useful in holding one spot.

There are various reasons that I like holding out in one spot over staying on the move, but one of the main reasons that being on the move constantly can be frustrating in KF2 has to do with map design. Due to zeds moving very quickly, and having little time to make decisions or clear a path to move through, there are many things that ruin otherwise good maps in KF2. These things mostly include tight hallways, dead-ends, areas that look like you can go but cant (limited to custom maps), and railings that are either too high to jump over, or just high enough that they take a try or 2 to get over (knockback on zeds makes it harder to jump over things on the run).

Another reason why I don't like sprint in KF2 is that it doesn't have much thought involved with it. When you're moving, you simple always hold down shift, no questions asked, where as other tactical shooters such as CSGO have accuracy penalties for moving. In not saying to make you miss all your shots while running KF2, I'm just saying that on players, needing to constantly sprint is just kind of weird to me. I'd rather it be a decision making thing or just not have it at all. Something like "you move much faster, but there's like 1 second downtime between sprinting and shooting, would make it feel a lot better to me at least.

Also perks that have to constantly reload like support and demo often get surrounded a lot faster than other perks on higher difficulties because the game revolves so much around constantly sprinting, that perks that can't do that (because you can't reload while sprinting) end up getting caught out really easily, which is most likely one of the main reasons that most people I know that play HOE just think support is bad.


Aside from movement mechanics, I liked it better in KF1 where the Fleshpound could 1 hit kill players on HOE, but could be taken down more reliably by Demo and Sharpshooter. With the railgun this is now possible, but demo still can't really do it with 6 people on HOE.

 

[Pharrahnox]

If anything the scrake needs to be "refined" a tad to let zerkers block more easily. From my experience (and granted its not exhaustive) zerkers take far too much damage through no fault of their own against an SC. Even if usually its against a trash horde that support, mando, fb or slingers dont deal with, when they should - because tehy are to busy also focusing on the SC.

As I have already said earlier in this thread, parrying is not the best way to go about it. Bashing is much more effective from what I've found. So yes, it is the zerker's fault if it's not due to taking damage from the trash.

Another reason why I don't like sprint in KF2 is that it doesn't have much thought involved with it. When you're moving, you simple always hold down shift, no questions asked, where as other tactical shooters such as CSGO have accuracy penalties for moving. In not saying to make you miss all your shots while running KF2, I'm just saying that on players, needing to constantly sprint is just kind of weird to me. I'd rather it be a decision making thing or just not have it at all. Something like "you move much faster, but there's like 1 second downtime between sprinting and shooting, would make it feel a lot better to me at least.

There is a little bit of a penalty with shooting straight after shooting, there seems to be a slight delay. I agree that it could be increased a bit. However, I currently use sprint shooting to solo scrakes as a commando if it's required, so... There'd need to be an alternative, if there isn't a decent one already.

Aside from movement mechanics, I liked it better in KF1 where the Fleshpound could 1 hit kill players on HOE, but could be taken down more reliably by Demo and Sharpshooter. With the railgun this is now possible, but demo still can't really do it with 6 people on HOE.

I'd really prefer to avoid resorting to 1-hit kills, but I wouldn't mind zeds doing a bit more damage. You can still get away with a lot on HoE. Demo can almost kill fleshpounds quickly, but not quite.Unless you spam a bunch of C4 as well. The old grenade stun made it so much easier, but not in a bad way.

I also really don't see what the big deal with the big zed announcements are. The big zeds generally come after a reasonable delay anyway, and people call them out through chat, so I don't see that it makes a huge difference. I'd be fine with it being removed for a 'hardcore' mode, but I hardly think it will change anything all that much.