So the game conductor is here in all its unholy glory, and while I get the idea of why it
GC and teleproting zeds combo is a nightmare
- Thread starter Reclusiarch
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I know, but I get the impression that the problem increased a lot with the implementation of the GC
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Here some uncommon arguments when it comes to Teleportation threads in general:
1. Teleporting is not much different from the spawning. If ZED can teleport here then it can spawn here too, each appearance might be just spawning and not a teleportation.
2. Not all ZEDs appear at same time. They spawn in squads and there's some time between squad deployments so the group you'll see behind the corner could've just spawn there without any teleportation.
3. There's really no point in trying to get away from ZEDs as far as you can. This won't happen. Game will always attempt to spawn them nearby. ZEDs spawn in special places named Spawn Volumes and they don't just appear from the thin air "right behind the door".
Furthermore, game rates these Spawn Volumes by various desirability factors and tries to use all of them so ZEDs will always be coming from different directions.
4. ZEDs are AIs, they tend to use shortest paths while approaching. Even if they had spawned far away, don't expect them follow you step by step. If fact it might be you who help them reach you faster.
5. It takes time for ZEDs to attempt to teleport. They also have teleport cooldowns and some time where they unable to teleport after spawning. Some ZEDs cannot teleport at all.
While it is somehow easier for teleportation to occur in solo game, it's barely possible for ZEDs to teleport in multiplayer game (LOS / Relevance factors pushed by multiple players render ZEDs being always "under control").
5. As said, Game Conductor has nothing to do with the teleportation.
Not really trying to defend this system though. I just think people should do some double checks or at least blame something else but this mechanic.
1. Teleporting is not much different from the spawning. If ZED can teleport here then it can spawn here too, each appearance might be just spawning and not a teleportation.
2. Not all ZEDs appear at same time. They spawn in squads and there's some time between squad deployments so the group you'll see behind the corner could've just spawn there without any teleportation.
3. There's really no point in trying to get away from ZEDs as far as you can. This won't happen. Game will always attempt to spawn them nearby. ZEDs spawn in special places named Spawn Volumes and they don't just appear from the thin air "right behind the door".
Furthermore, game rates these Spawn Volumes by various desirability factors and tries to use all of them so ZEDs will always be coming from different directions.
4. ZEDs are AIs, they tend to use shortest paths while approaching. Even if they had spawned far away, don't expect them follow you step by step. If fact it might be you who help them reach you faster.
5. It takes time for ZEDs to attempt to teleport. They also have teleport cooldowns and some time where they unable to teleport after spawning. Some ZEDs cannot teleport at all.
While it is somehow easier for teleportation to occur in solo game, it's barely possible for ZEDs to teleport in multiplayer game (LOS / Relevance factors pushed by multiple players render ZEDs being always "under control").
5. As said, Game Conductor has nothing to do with the teleportation.
Not really trying to defend this system though. I just think people should do some double checks or at least blame something else but this mechanic.
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I noticed that after the implementation of the GC I'm losing practically all the time, when before the update it wasn't that bad.
Well, what would I know...
EDIT: I appreciate the fact that you took your time to give me that info
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I've notice that too. Although GC's numbers does not look so drastically game-breaking. I guess there were some major changes in AI behaviour / navigation in general.
Game got more pace after PvP update, that's for sure.
Game got more pace after PvP update, that's for sure.
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I cannot argue anything about the details concerning the teleportation system - and since you know the details a lot better then most of us - certainly not against you. But I do know what I've seen and the experience I've had since the conductor has been added. I've only won 1 game since then and I play every day 1-7+ games depending on the day. And I've seen a lot more zeds appear out of thin air. I've done more running around ( and thanks to the medic's increased speed been able to survive ) then I have EVER done. I've run around without killing anything and still I see them appear in front of me. So if it's not teleportation then what is it? It can't be just the increased speed - or can it?
I also know today is my last day for a while. I said that a week ago but I wanted to get medic up to 20 so I could check out the skills so I kept playing it. But I'm tired of the whole thing and need a break.
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Rafin The Red
ZEDs do teleport but they do spawn "badly" too. All the arguments i've posted should not be treated as "there's no teleportation in this game at all" kind of statement
IMO it is hard to say whether this was a teleportation, spawn or it was simply a left-behind ZED decided to take another route.
ZEDs can move faster, but only far away from the player(s), when game does not render them in any way. However they prefer to teleport instead. Depending on ZED there's few-to-zero seconds between the super speed mode and teleportation.
To try your run without ZED teleportation you can try a mod that disables it (haven't tried it by myself, here's the link). Or you can just run around the map in same manner and do 360 spins every few seconds. That might sound weird but it does impact on teleportation mechanics.
It would be surely nice to hear dev's current thoughts on this mechanics. It's not like Suicide / HOE games feels anyhow easier without it.
ZEDs do teleport but they do spawn "badly" too. All the arguments i've posted should not be treated as "there's no teleportation in this game at all" kind of statement
IMO it is hard to say whether this was a teleportation, spawn or it was simply a left-behind ZED decided to take another route.
ZEDs can move faster, but only far away from the player(s), when game does not render them in any way. However they prefer to teleport instead. Depending on ZED there's few-to-zero seconds between the super speed mode and teleportation.
To try your run without ZED teleportation you can try a mod that disables it (haven't tried it by myself, here's the link). Or you can just run around the map in same manner and do 360 spins every few seconds. That might sound weird but it does impact on teleportation mechanics.
It would be surely nice to hear dev's current thoughts on this mechanics. It's not like Suicide / HOE games feels anyhow easier without it.
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Zeds rarely teleport closer unless they're stuck. Most of what causes them to constantly be close to you is the out of sight movespeed bonus (1x for 1-3 players, 1.3x for 4-5 players, >>1.65x<< for 6 players). Whenever I've died and I'm looking around in free cam, I almost never see zeds teleport. In fact, the only time I've seen it in the last month is when a scrake was stuck on a small zed on one of those very thin stairways on prison.
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The thing is though in KF1 kiting was a legit strategy because the teleporting system didn't exist. The horde cap as far as I remember was 32, and if that was the amount of Zeds on the map you could control what lived and what didn't, I think all trash and sirens (idk bout husks and bloats) can respawn within certain scenarios which is just a poor solution to a pretty much copy and paste system from the first game. Like a good map to see it work is Forgotten in the first game when stuff would spawn around the corner all the time if you didn't pay attention to what you were killing. I just think they need to really work on in map spawns, because it feels way to artificial right now. I mean I guess you could say you shouldn't be able to "manipulate" waves like you could in the first game, but I really don't think you can as easily due to how much faster zeds move in this game.
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Rafin The Red
ZEDs do teleport but they do spawn "badly" too. All the arguments i've posted should not be treated as "there's no teleportation in this game at all" kind of statement
IMO it is hard to say whether this was a teleportation, spawn or it was simply a left-behind ZED decided to take another route.
ZEDs can move faster, but only far away from the player(s), when game does not render them in any way. However they prefer to teleport instead. Depending on ZED there's few-to-zero seconds between the super speed mode and teleportation.
To try your run without ZED teleportation you can try a mod that disables it (haven't tried it by myself, here's the link). Or you can just run around the map in same manner and do 360 spins every few seconds. That might sound weird but it does impact on teleportation mechanics.
It would be surely nice to hear dev's current thoughts on this mechanics. It's not like Suicide / HOE games feels anyhow easier without it.
Simplecat - Thank you for the information and the suggestions. BTW great work with the data base.
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I find the challenge to be right about where I want it. Good, organized teams can handle the full assault of the Conductor but only if they're giving it their all, while disorganized teams get chewed up and spat out. The recent weeks have been pretty rough in the adjustment department, but the brutal, never ending challenge is there.
I hardly see zerkwalls anymore; the husk's flamethrower can toast a zerk in seconds, not to mention the zeds can push players around with their attacks (admittedly this makes kiting as a zerk a series of frustrations). This is a step in the right direction.
Teleporting is...eh, I haven't noticed it as much now. What i do still see are mobs spawn right before my eyes and in wide open spaces. This is both immersion killing and just flat out annoying. KF1 was notorious for it too.
32 is correct, although I still don't know what it is in this game.
I hardly see zerkwalls anymore; the husk's flamethrower can toast a zerk in seconds, not to mention the zeds can push players around with their attacks (admittedly this makes kiting as a zerk a series of frustrations). This is a step in the right direction.
Teleporting is...eh, I haven't noticed it as much now. What i do still see are mobs spawn right before my eyes and in wide open spaces. This is both immersion killing and just flat out annoying. KF1 was notorious for it too.
32 is correct, although I still don't know what it is in this game.
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^ Online - 32, Solo Normal - 16, Other Solo difficulties - 24.
Rafin The Red, thanks!
Rafin The Red, thanks!
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I have also noticed more spawns out of thin air since GC.
I do not understand the mechanics enough to suggest a fix, but the spawn/teleport system does need some tweaking.
I saw Yoshiro state in another thread that if the teleportation system is working correctly you shouldn't even notice it. Well that is just not the case currently, whether they are spawns or teleports they happen too close to the player and are very noticeable at times.
Thats why there is so much hate on the teleport system.
I do not understand the mechanics enough to suggest a fix, but the spawn/teleport system does need some tweaking.
I saw Yoshiro state in another thread that if the teleportation system is working correctly you shouldn't even notice it. Well that is just not the case currently, whether they are spawns or teleports they happen too close to the player and are very noticeable at times.
Thats why there is so much hate on the teleport system.
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Generally there is little issue with teleporting in my experience.
The biggest problems are when raging scrakes and fleshpounds teleport within a blindspot so players cant avoid them.
This is especially the case when kiting and if the player is on low health because as you can guess the player never even sees the attack coming as they are running from a crowd of trash.
So in my opinion teleporting needs a little tweaking.
This issue Ive seen countless times on HoE and many on Sui.
The biggest problems are when raging scrakes and fleshpounds teleport within a blindspot so players cant avoid them.
This is especially the case when kiting and if the player is on low health because as you can guess the player never even sees the attack coming as they are running from a crowd of trash.
So in my opinion teleporting needs a little tweaking.
This issue Ive seen countless times on HoE and many on Sui.
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I have to concur with the OP on this one. Most frequent KF gamers will have felt their way through what is the best way to kite a horde. Too fast and the zeds relocate or double back on you, too slow and you suffer attrition on your health and armour from zeds engaging you. There's an in between where you feel like you're in at least some modicum of control. Making sure there are always a healthy crowd being lead; although smart players will always be checking their 6 regardless. But right now that just seems to have disappeared. I really don't feel safe moving through a map during a round when zeds can spawn in an adjacent room. The rate at which i encounter zeds based on those already in the map feels unnatural. I barely have time to reload my weapon before getting flanked by zeds from an adjacent room. Playing both Solo and Online i do note this is more of a problem in solo than otherwise. But still noticeable.
I could understand why developers might want to remove that safety net players find when playing the game and becoming familiar with it, but right now it feels incredibly cheap.
I have also experienced entire squads of zeds spawning in right before my eyes, i can only assume the spawn was calculated from "behind a pillar" as this happens a lot on Prison and Evacuation Point.
I could understand why developers might want to remove that safety net players find when playing the game and becoming familiar with it, but right now it feels incredibly cheap.
I have also experienced entire squads of zeds spawning in right before my eyes, i can only assume the spawn was calculated from "behind a pillar" as this happens a lot on Prison and Evacuation Point.
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I don't think I really felt the full effect of the GC until today. No idea why but I just finished playing a series of 4 games and my god they were crazy. Only playing on Sui but it felt like HoE, endless zeds flying at sonic speed straight at you and surprise husks killing everyone in an instant. Now, I've been leveling Demo on sui since lvl 15 with no problems for a while so unless I got really really bad at KF2 over the weekend, today it was almost impossible to play.
Don't know why, maybe the GC was in a bad mood but every game was a wipe before wave 5. Three games in a row I tried before finally giving up and going rage-zerker. I also happened to get a really great team this time and the insane speed and difficulty stopped being frustrating and became the funnest game of KF2 I've played. It was so fast and constant carnage, real good stuff. We actually beat it thanks to some good teamwork.
Fun aside, the GC is not cool. The odds of getting a pub team good enough to beat this is really low and I consider Sui to be the hardest feasibly playable difficulty for pubs. The stupid hard stuff should stay in the HoE containment area with all the sadists.
edit: I also saw a husk spawn 3 feet away from my face. I think that possibly the spawn issues occur when the GC gets really fierce with the spawn rate.
Don't know why, maybe the GC was in a bad mood but every game was a wipe before wave 5. Three games in a row I tried before finally giving up and going rage-zerker. I also happened to get a really great team this time and the insane speed and difficulty stopped being frustrating and became the funnest game of KF2 I've played. It was so fast and constant carnage, real good stuff. We actually beat it thanks to some good teamwork.
Fun aside, the GC is not cool. The odds of getting a pub team good enough to beat this is really low and I consider Sui to be the hardest feasibly playable difficulty for pubs. The stupid hard stuff should stay in the HoE containment area with all the sadists.
edit: I also saw a husk spawn 3 feet away from my face. I think that possibly the spawn issues occur when the GC gets really fierce with the spawn rate.
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Regarding GC and Teleporting
Regarding GC and Teleporting
It may be that people are noticing it more because you're killing more as you're running away.
As cat stated, mechanics wise things tend to not teleport unless they are absolutely stuck. If something just happened to spawn from around a corner in front of you then it's because something was killed from behind where you guys were running from. (New spawns possible).
If the camp gets overrun then it's a better idea to push through and just run+reload while making a kite-path route back to the original campground. In this way, you might get greeted with a couple of zeds at the campsite since they decided to route backwards to your group all while you're still getting the zed group that was still chasing your group (basically a reload reset and potentially a raged FP incoming).
I made a video a while back on killing slowly while moving and I realized how terrible of a technique that actually was, it's way safer to just run a loop and reset your campground.
I will say that if zeds happened to spawn right out of thin air, then at the moment of "spawn" you didn't have line of sight of that spawn cylinder. It's kinda like if you bought a soda from a vending machine, once you hit the coke button it's in the middle of spawning but you don't actually see the can/bottle until it reaches the bottom. This is actually in combination with the walling issue where (if I had to put it in words) your character goes invisible or off the map thus killing AI or, in the topic of this thread, allows for things to just spawn in midair. The worst I've seen is in Catacombs watching the door area spawns by the stairs and jumping repeatedly to spawn a SC right there. I'm not exactly sure where the game considers your line of sight but I'm sure it's related to two of the biggest issues in the game (tp/spawn and walling).
Regarding GC and Teleporting
It may be that people are noticing it more because you're killing more as you're running away.
As cat stated, mechanics wise things tend to not teleport unless they are absolutely stuck. If something just happened to spawn from around a corner in front of you then it's because something was killed from behind where you guys were running from. (New spawns possible).
If the camp gets overrun then it's a better idea to push through and just run+reload while making a kite-path route back to the original campground. In this way, you might get greeted with a couple of zeds at the campsite since they decided to route backwards to your group all while you're still getting the zed group that was still chasing your group (basically a reload reset and potentially a raged FP incoming).
I made a video a while back on killing slowly while moving and I realized how terrible of a technique that actually was, it's way safer to just run a loop and reset your campground.
I will say that if zeds happened to spawn right out of thin air, then at the moment of "spawn" you didn't have line of sight of that spawn cylinder. It's kinda like if you bought a soda from a vending machine, once you hit the coke button it's in the middle of spawning but you don't actually see the can/bottle until it reaches the bottom. This is actually in combination with the walling issue where (if I had to put it in words) your character goes invisible or off the map thus killing AI or, in the topic of this thread, allows for things to just spawn in midair. The worst I've seen is in Catacombs watching the door area spawns by the stairs and jumping repeatedly to spawn a SC right there. I'm not exactly sure where the game considers your line of sight but I'm sure it's related to two of the biggest issues in the game (tp/spawn and walling).
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We are looking into spawn scenarios where the system may be doing things that weren't intended. I'm not sure where that has gotten too at this point as I was off at PAX East.
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