Failure to fire, failure to eject, failure to feed weapons jams?

[MikkOwl]

Apologies for the length of post. Tried trimming already..

I don't agree that it is better to just suicide self to get the main weapon back than to clear a stoppage. Again we can compare it to having limited ammunition, reloading and why not heating barrels om machine guns. It is the same philosophy. I am certain that most players love the limited ammo and barrel heating and so they would this (if done right). Here are reasons why we should not fear that people will suicide themselves to get a new main weapon:

1. The firearm can be used as a melee weapon (especially if having a bayonet attachable).
2. Some classes have personal side-arms exactly for this kind of situation.
3. Might be equipped with grenades.
4. In Red Orchestra and Darkest Hour, weapons are typically plentiful and easy to come by. Most of the time it is the weapons of people in the own army that tend to fall to the left and right of us (speaking of which, I really like how they make you pick up the ammo for it separately from the weapon).
5. I almost never run out of ammunition, but when it does, I never found a need or desire to get myself killed so I can respawn for more ammo. I have not observed or heard about this from others ever either. I am sure there can be people like that but..​

On the risk/cause of stoppages

The way I envision it is the same as reality. Each firearm has a base value risk of stoppages, upon which those external factors will worsen. You can never eliminate the risk of it completely, but getting the most reliable bolt action rifle (would that be the Mosin-Nagant? Tapered casings I think) means one would not have to worry about stoppages in general. Choosing an early, unreliable self-loading rifle (SVT-40 or G41) would have a much higher baseline risk of jams (tempting firepower though )

Types of stoppages

Reality has loads of reasons and several types of stoppages. Here are the ones I remember, with my defunct memory on how to clear them:

1. Failure to chamber
If bolt action rifle: the bolt gets stuck against something when trying to close it forward.
If closed bolt auto-loader (G41, SVT-40, all autoloading handguns), probably noticed when nothing happens when pulling trigger.
If open bolt auto-loader (All SMG & MG): goes click when pulling trigger.
Reason: Deformed casing, deformed mechanism (due to temperature or damage), unreliable design or dirt.
Fix: Remove magazine (if there is one) cycle the bolt, then reinsert magazine and try again.

2. Failure to fire
For all weapons: a click when pulling trigger.
Reason: defective cartridge primer or firing pin not strong enough for the type of primer being used.
Fix: Cycle the bolt manually once.

3. Failure to extract
The spent (not necessarily but) cartridge does not get ejected from the firearm, either just going back into the chamber or getting stuck in strange positions, including portruding out sideways like a 'stove pipe'. Almost only affects auto-loaders as far as I know.
Reason: the recoil/gases used to cycle the bolt were not strong enough to cycle it fully.
Fix: If it was re-chambered, just manually cycle the bolt. Otherwise it can be tricky (I simply don't know how one fixes stovepipes)
​

Physical damage / deformities to the mechanism will of course be able to cause any of the above.

Implementation late in development - Design Proposal

Reality has many reasons. But Tripwire Interactive does not have infinite resources to model everything. The first, simplest model that is crude but much better than nothing is as follows:

All stoppages manifest themselves as the ‘failure to fire’ kind where the primer is faulty. Cycling the bolt once will eject the unfired cartridge and chamber the next one. Treated like manual vs auto bolting. Faster when manual. Simple for people of any skill level. Faster than a regular reload.

Required: Most likely all weapons already have a ‘cycle bolt only’ animation, as that is the case in Red Orchestra. That leaves needing code that computes the risk of stoppage, using some extra values assigned to them in some .ini file by the dev team, some documentation, testing, and the code and interface for the ‘auto vs manual’ option. Yep, small things take more resources than it appears. But it’s worth it sometimes

Fleshed out & delicious proposal: Same as above except that there is a risk of serious stoppage, in which case the bolt cannot be successfully cycled X amount of times (perhaps never). Requires an incomplete bolt cycle animation and sound effect for each weapon.

Manual bolt cycling

Years ago we were given a reload button. Then an iron sight button. Then a deploy bipod weapon. Then a switch-barrel button. The time is right for the ‘cycle bolt’ button. Simple implementation: A new button cycles the bolt (when shooting bolt action rifles in manual mode, the left mouse button can no longer perform the cycle bolt action). It is used all the time for bolt action rifles, and to clear stoppages on any weapon.

Drool-inducing variant: in full manual realism mode, pressing the reload button only discards and inserts new magazine/stripper clip. But the bolt key is necessary for, well, cycling the bolt. Yum!

Cooking off

Firing too much should run the risk of igniting the cartridge prematurely in some firearms. Very simple to implement: there is already code for overheating barrels for MGs. If barrel temperature goes above threshold, every few seconds a check is made for if the cartridge will cook-off (same as the fire button having been pressed).

Slam-fire

On weapons with floating firing pins and closed bolt operation (G41/43, StG44, SVT-40 perhaps?) gets stuck in the forward position and has the same effect has having the trigger held down. Auto fire.

 

[Floyd]

I really like the thinking here, Mikkowl.

Personally, I wouldn't object to having rare random misfires and malfunctions. I think it would add something to the game.

Two things though.
1) The clans would literally "have a cow" if it weren't a selectable feature. I enjoy matches with a bit of randomness thrown in. It increases the thrilll and adds to the immersion for me, but for whatever reason, others don't see it that way. Egos require everything to be "even".
2) I think to be most effective and accepted among the general populace, the mis-fires/malfunctions would have to be rare. Perhaps once in 4 or 5 maps. Perhaps even less than that.

 

[Lucan946]

Stovepipes are fixed by merely reaching up and whacking out the stuck casing, I believe.

 

[Dwin]

2) I think to be most effective and accepted among the general populace, the mis-fires/malfunctions would have to be rare. Perhaps once in 4 or 5 maps. Perhaps even less than that.

How about never? Do you honestly think most people are going to enjoy this feature?

If you really want to see how weapon jamming would work, go play Darkest Hour and use the Lee Enfield. There is a bug where, occasionally, it will fire a "ghost bullet"; functionally, it is the same as jamming. 100% of the time it results in your death or a missed opportunity to kill an enemy. NOT fun.

 

[Lucan946]

How about never? Do you honestly think most people are going to enjoy this feature?

If you want weapon jamming, go play Darkest Hour and use the Lee Enfield. There is a bug where, occasionally, it will fire a "ghost bullet"; functionally, it is the same as jamming. 100% of the time it results in your death or a missed opportunity to kill an enemy. NOT fun.

If the jams happen for a reason, it will add to the immersion and the realism. If it is just based on a random percentage, however, I will agree that this would not be fun.

 

[Mobius One]

(I simply don't know how one fixes stovepipes)

In my experience, stove pipes are usually fixed by racking the bolt ever so slightly so the spent casing can fall out from being gripped by the bolt face and the chamber, or by whacking the receiver a little. I've found this happens the most with more rimmed cartridges like .22LR because of the inherent finicky nature of rimmed cartridges with autoloading rifles, which gives an argument for SVT-40 owners in real life to use high quality magazines and the fact that AFAIK no 10-round 7.62x54R magazines have ever been developed - there'd just be way too much reliability issues with that rimmed cartridge with magazines larger than 10 rounds in autoloaders like the SVT-40, SVD, or PSL.

Reliability issues can be caused by limpwristing a handgun too, but for all intents and purposes, there's really no reason for someone to be limpwristing a handgun in this game purposefully.

YouTube - Limp Wrist Test

Great post, by the way, a lot of good ideas. I really like the idea of manually racking the bolt too!

 

[Leopardi]

please explain how AA perfectly implimented this "feature" and explain how this could be perfectly implimented in ROHOS without making it an unbareably random annoyance to players that results in broken gameplay.....

Because it literally happened once or twice a year. Rarely a bit more often. Never had it interrupt an important match.

 

[MikkOwl]

Aha, so stove pipes were just as simple as the casing stuck between bolt and frame? Then yes, just opening the bolt a bit would allow it to fall free.

Most stoppages seem to be a simple, brief affair. Good for a simplified stoppage and clearing system.

Regarding the base risk of stoppages, I think it should just be based on what kind of weapon it is and what environment it is in. Cold winter maps might raise the risk for stoppages as lot for some weapons, that in other circumstances have barely any.

Another suggestion: variation in the speed of cycling the bolt. It feels unnatural to have it 100% the same speed every time in Red Orchestra. I suggest having fatigue, shock and the state of the weapon determine if some cycling becomes troublesome and more likely to get snagged for a few tenths of a second.

Yet another suggestion: gas impingement system in self loading rifles becoming clogged. When it happens, one can still shoot, but must cycle the bolt between each shot much like a bolt action rifle (happened to a friend with an FN FNC 5.56mm assault rifle whilst in military service). Fits the manual bolt racking well.

Regarding manual bolt operation: Just to be able to handle the firearm operations more like reality would be great fun. The following becomes possible:

1. Run out of ammo and inserted fresh magazine, but forgot to cycle the bolt.

2. Switched magazine before running out of ammo and cycled the bolt just in case (ejecting an unspent cartridge).

3. Can put in a fresh magazine but not cycle the bolt (to prevent accidental discharge, or in the case of MG's and SMG's with open bolts, to prevent crap from getting into the mechanism).

4. Won't have to worry about accidentally firing a bolt action when just wanting to cycle it (I think in RO the posture is different when it does not have a round chambered, which I don't like. Should be up to the operator to figure it out).

5. Can cycle bolt action rifle when not needed (because one forgot if one did it before or not).

6. Clearing a stoppage, or cycling the bolt the case of failure of the self-loading mechanism (see the gas impingement mention earlier in the post).

7. Picking up someone elses firearm off the ground becomes a much more interesting affair. Is it messed up and discarded by the owner? Does it have live cartridge loaded? A dud perhaps? etc​

 

[Serathis]

I have seen weapon jamming mod. Once in all the years I have been playing RO. I think there is a reason why no servers elected to use them.

However crawling through dirt, muddy water and such... jamming weapons indeed would add to the immersion.

 

[MikkOwl]

How did the mod employ stoppages? I.e. how often did they occur, was there differences between weapon types and circumstance, how were they manifest themselves, graphical, sound, interface? Remember anything about what feedback it received from people who tried it?

Weird as it is, something so basic is still lacking in most games with firearms. Just like realistic running speeds and iron sights took forever to get implemented and accepted (I remember what people who came from Quake / Counter-Strike said about Rainbow 6 and the likes - their expectations on how a game should be were deeply entrenched in the conventional at the time, meaning super fast paced FPS). Not being a ghost that floats (without body and legs, just arms) is also slow to get adapted yet I'm sure once it gains acceptance no one would think to accept anything less.

I don't recall ever getting my hands on a game/sim that had stoppages in any realistic sense. System Shock 2 and Far Cry 2 were way over the top. I was not pleased with the way they worked in either and I imagine most would not like it.

 

[Serathis]

Malfuntions in Far Cry 2 were epic. The RPG just dropped the in front of you and you had to run for it.

As for the server that used the jamming. I have no idea. It was years ago and I have not seen it ever again.

 

[Peter.Steele]

AFAIK no 10-round 7.62x54R magazines have ever been developed - there'd just be way too much reliability issues with that rimmed cartridge with magazines larger than 10 rounds in autoloaders like the SVT-40, SVD, or PSL.

The stock magazine for those guns IS a 10-rounder.

Supposedly there were some 15- and 20-round magazines for the AVT's, but to the best of my knowledge none are around today.

Also, there's plenty of high-cap magazines for rimmed cartridges today. You just have to look at any 10/22 accessory catalog to find a million of them. Yes, they have some reliability issues, but that's more a function of the design of the feed lips, and the fact that nobody but Ruger can make a decent one for the 10/22. Other high-cap 22's - e.g., the S&W M&P 15-22, have high-cap mags with few difficulties as well.

Yet another suggestion: gas impingement system in self loading rifles becoming clogged. When it happens, one can still shoot, but must cycle the bolt between each shot much like a bolt action rifle (happened to a friend with an FN FNC 5.56mm assault rifle whilst in military service). Fits the manual bolt racking well.

The FNC is a piston operated weapon, not direct impingement. There's not too many firearms that operate on the DI system. About the only one you'll see on a regular basis are AR-15/AR-10-type weapons. The only way you're really likely to plug up the gas tube on a DI system is if you're using non-jacketed (i.e., straight lead) bullets, or if you're using the wrong powder. There's 50,000+ PSI in that gas tube, and that's MORE than enough to overcome just about any kind of plugging.

 

[MikkOwl]

Peter.Steele is correct about my mistake of terminology.

I meant to say any gas operated as opposed to recoil operated. And yes, I think probably the pipes getting clogged is probably not a big chance.

The FN FNC has gas piston, and it also has two settings for when nice and clean and when getting cold and dirty. The recoil is more pronounced with the latter but operation is more reliable. Despite this, they (or indeed any auto-loader) can for various reasons be unable to cycle themselves and then one must manually do so between each shot. Subsonic/less than lethal ammo can cause insufficient force to cycle the mechanism. Machine guns like the MG42 have recoil boosters to increase reliability of the cycling (If I remember...).

The phenomena of having to cycle between each shot on an autoloader is what would be nice to see.

 

[Ermac]

Apologies for the length of post. Tried trimming already..

I don't agree that it is better to just suicide self to get the main weapon back than to clear a stoppage. Again we can compare it to having limited ammunition, reloading and why not heating barrels om machine guns. It is the same philosophy. I am certain that most players love the limited ammo and barrel heating and so they would this (if done right). Here are reasons why we should not fear that people will suicide themselves to get a new main weapon:

1. The firearm can be used as a melee weapon (especially if having a bayonet attachable).
2. Some classes have personal side-arms exactly for this kind of situation.
3. Might be equipped with grenades.
4. In Red Orchestra and Darkest Hour, weapons are typically plentiful and easy to come by. Most of the time it is the weapons of people in the own army that tend to fall to the left and right of us (speaking of which, I really like how they make you pick up the ammo for it separately from the weapon).
5. I almost never run out of ammunition, but when it does, I never found a need or desire to get myself killed so I can respawn for more ammo. I have not observed or heard about this from others ever either. I am sure there can be people like that but..​

On the risk/cause of stoppages

The way I envision it is the same as reality. Each firearm has a base value risk of stoppages, upon which those external factors will worsen. You can never eliminate the risk of it completely, but getting the most reliable bolt action rifle (would that be the Mosin-Nagant? Tapered casings I think) means one would not have to worry about stoppages in general. Choosing an early, unreliable self-loading rifle (SVT-40 or G41) would have a much higher baseline risk of jams (tempting firepower though )

Types of stoppages

Reality has loads of reasons and several types of stoppages. Here are the ones I remember, with my defunct memory on how to clear them:

1. Failure to chamber
If bolt action rifle: the bolt gets stuck against something when trying to close it forward.
If closed bolt auto-loader (G41, SVT-40, all autoloading handguns), probably noticed when nothing happens when pulling trigger.
If open bolt auto-loader (All SMG & MG): goes click when pulling trigger.
Reason: Deformed casing, deformed mechanism (due to temperature or damage), unreliable design or dirt.
Fix: Remove magazine (if there is one) cycle the bolt, then reinsert magazine and try again.

2. Failure to fire
For all weapons: a click when pulling trigger.
Reason: defective cartridge primer or firing pin not strong enough for the type of primer being used.
Fix: Cycle the bolt manually once.

3. Failure to extract
The spent (not necessarily but) cartridge does not get ejected from the firearm, either just going back into the chamber or getting stuck in strange positions, including portruding out sideways like a 'stove pipe'. Almost only affects auto-loaders as far as I know.
Reason: the recoil/gases used to cycle the bolt were not strong enough to cycle it fully.
Fix: If it was re-chambered, just manually cycle the bolt. Otherwise it can be tricky (I simply don't know how one fixes stovepipes)
​

Physical damage / deformities to the mechanism will of course be able to cause any of the above.

Implementation late in development - Design Proposal

Reality has many reasons. But Tripwire Interactive does not have infinite resources to model everything. The first, simplest model that is crude but much better than nothing is as follows:

All stoppages manifest themselves as the

 

[TWB*JimMiller]

I can see a bunch of players freaking out and yelling and screaming because of this. Players already freak out because of simply running out of ammo or just missing the enemy, telling them that jams are simply a "feature" is not going to help them. If it is a server side feature, I can say with high confidence it will be off.

In a single player state the devs can account for the timing of the jams and such to allow the player to still have some level of control over the situation. In multiplayer, it would take all control away from the player, in that specific situation, and that would only cause grief.

You can already see how bent some folks get over random arty, even though it really isn't that random.

 

[MtnMan01]

I can see a bunch of players freaking out and yelling and screaming because of this. Players already freak out because of simply running out of ammo or just missing the enemy, telling them that jams are simply a "feature" is not going to help them. If it is a server side feature, I can say with high confidence it will be off.

In a single player state the devs can account for the timing of the jams and such to allow the player to still have some level of control over the situation. In multiplayer, it would take all control away from the player, in that specific situation, and that would only cause grief.

You can already see how bent some folks get over random arty, even though it really isn't that random.

------------------------------

Totally agree with JM,here,,

Also the Germans had a lot of problems with there rifles.smg's freezing(in the winter) when not being used in the field 15-20min+ or not stored correctly when not on active duty,behing lines (Bolts/breaches etc. freezing in the cold.)The grease/oil/moisture froze in there weapons,and locking the weapons up,need heat to solve problem.

The soviets over came this problem by adding some gas(never freezes) to there mixture(oil/grease) to all moving parts.I believe copied by the Germans when some soviet weapons were captured n inspected

Seen this on a History Channel some time back n was surprised,

I never would of thought that freezing on all metal moving parts would happen,,Also same with tanks parts freezing,,wheels/tracks etc,solved same way with gas adding to grease

Could never implement this realistic feature/pain/frustration in game,

 

[HerrPorsche]

I would like to see some jamming of weapons in the game. It happened quite frequently with the German weapons in the early stages of the Soviet Invasion. However I agree with some that if it happened in game too much it would take away from the game play. The MG34/42 and Maxim guns would often need to be unjammed more than other weapons. But in the end it is a game...

 

[Nicholas]

The rank leveling suggestions I think are bad ideas. Weapons don't behave any differently depending on rank or rewards, unless they cherry pick the best ammo and the best firearms for the person, and that doesn't seem like something they would ever do except for sharpshooters.

I am largely in favor of stoppages. I have had an interest in firearms for almost 30 years and I know that it is one of several important realities of them. I think it adds spice, immersion and a new spin on things where one must sometimes improvise unexpectedly, or one is faced with such a person. I can understand if someone doesn't want anything random (although not anyone with such preferences being drawn to anything simulating reality however) but the reasons given in this topic are plain goofy.


'Players have no control over stoppages'

That is similar to saying that we have no control over the chance of accidents in traffic at all. If one does not follow the following guidelines, the risk of stoppage goes up, and it is clear how and why it happened

- Choose a more reliable firearm (this is a really major obvious thing. Makes the bolt action weapons a bit more tasty to use, too).
- Don't overheat the mechanism & barrel.
- Don't submerse the firearm in liquid.
- Don't open the bolt of the firearm or expose an open-bolt (all SMG & MG) firearm to flying particles..
- Don't intentionally slam the firearm into things, especially more fragile variants.
- Don't let the firearm get damaged by dropping it, exposing it to explosives, fragments from explosives, bullets or fire.


'Getting a stoppage would be SO FRUSTRATING so why should it be in there?'

Most of the time chances are nothing special happens when getting a stoppage. Just 1-2 seconds of not shooting a lot of the time. Yeah, maybe missed shooting someone. Yeah, maybe even get killed yourself. Reminds me a lot of having limited ammo and magazines. I like the reload feature a lot, in fact I think the game would be much worse off without it. Having to reload happens to the other person too. It is awesome when someone has to reload just as they would have had me.


'Random factors are bad'

Any shooting is a bit random because of the barrel and ammo not permitting a bullet to fly 100% in the same spot each time even if the weapon is welded stuck to something. Much worse with rapid fire and pistol cartridges. This is like a cone of fire that differs between the weapons. The fatigue / lack of perfect stability in the arms, breathing - also random. Grenades and artillery kills mostly through little metal fragments. It is fully possible to be near one and get lucky, not getting hit at all (in real life at least). And to get hit faaar away, lethally.

Certainly it is not possible to argue that firearm stoppages are bad because they are random without also arguing that the above is also bad. Even Counter-Strike has plenty of random elements even with the shooting even if not as much as Red Orchestra.

The appeal for people like me is that it is realistic. Using random as bad as argument makes me think of the ultimate expression of it: something like Quake where one moves a blob around at high speed in a black environment, trying to center the crosshairs fast enough on the other blobs flying around the place faster than they can on you. Completely un-random, all player skill indeed. Nothing wrong in liking that. Red Orchestra just does not use that as a design philosophy. There is no virtue in avoiding randomness for this reason alone.

There being random heart attacks and such is really not worth spending resources on in my opinion, as it is so immensely improbable anyway.

You nailed it, this.

 

[=TaT=Rabid]

My 2.167 cents (adjusted for the exchange rate):

I'd like to see stoppages etc, but with a healthy balance between random and not. Random in the sense of not "a stoppage after every x rounds fired", but rather that each weapon has a particular percentage chance of a stoppage, and that percentage depends on how you use your weapon. For example, if you fire in short, controlled bursts, you'll rarely have a stoppage, but if you rambo around spamming all over the place, you'll be clearing jams left right and centre. This, in my opinion, would be a good way of punishing players with poor fire discipline.

As I understand it, the majority of weapon stoppages are due to feed or ammunition problems, and are easily rectified just by working the bolt to eject the cartridge and feed in a new one. This could quite easily be done just by pressing fire to work the bolt to clear a jam, just like bolting between shots with a bolt-action rifle. Obviously machine guns will be a bit more complicated and take longer to clear.

But I don't think it would be worth adding the kind of stoppages/jams that would render the weapon completely useless. I just don't think there's any point, and it would cause the gameplay to suffer.

On a related note, what I would like to see is weapons being damaged by explosions/gunfire. For example if a round hits your weapon in any of the important parts (bolt assembly, receiver, barrel, etc), it's kaput and you have to pick up a new one.