Failure to fire, failure to eject, failure to feed weapons jams?
- Thread starter Mobius One
- Start date
I'm sure you have seen the quality of 1940's wartime ammo and also have seen vids set up by the German Wochenschau back then.
Even perfectly cared for MG's are constantly having bad cartridges in those vids.
While jamming is realistic, it has the possibility to add too much randomness to the game. Since there's no way for the player to maintain his own weapon, all you're doing is rolling the dice every time he fires to see if it jams or not. It seems to me that a system based on random chance is out of place in a game that prides itself in not being random (recoil model+ballistics rather than cone fire, etc.).
There's no good way I can think of to base jamming off of the player's own actions. Maybe heroes could experience jams less often, but that is still just giving them a slightly better random chance.
You're also making the game harder for new players, annoying them and possible going against the idea of making the game more accessible.
There's no good way I can think of to base jamming off of the player's own actions. Maybe heroes could experience jams less often, but that is still just giving them a slightly better random chance.
You're also making the game harder for new players, annoying them and possible going against the idea of making the game more accessible.
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I think that in the end it would only be annoying (like it is in real life), also it's out of the scope of the game. Or else we'd have guard shifts during nights where you could clean your rifle etc
I agree. No place in a fast pace game like RO.
Though, I would be open to the idea of having it in single player.
Going off topic... but are you an Ace Combat fan Mobius One?
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agreed. it would also be another random game mechanic that would take away control of the avatar from the player. if things are "random" or become "less random" due to rank/leveling, then it's not going to affect all players equally.
so an interesting idea, maybe for single player, but i see way too many complications with it happening in multiplayer.
please explain how AA perfectly implimented this "feature" and explain how this could be perfectly implimented in ROHOS without making it an unbareably random annoyance to players that results in broken gameplay.....
The rank leveling suggestions I think are bad ideas. Weapons don't behave any differently depending on rank or rewards, unless they cherry pick the best ammo and the best firearms for the person, and that doesn't seem like something they would ever do except for sharpshooters.
I am largely in favor of stoppages. I have had an interest in firearms for almost 30 years and I know that it is one of several important realities of them. I think it adds spice, immersion and a new spin on things where one must sometimes improvise unexpectedly, or one is faced with such a person. I can understand if someone doesn't want anything random (although not anyone with such preferences being drawn to anything simulating reality however) but the reasons given in this topic are plain goofy.
'Players have no control over stoppages'
That is similar to saying that we have no control over the chance of accidents in traffic at all. If one does not follow the following guidelines, the risk of stoppage goes up, and it is clear how and why it happened
- Choose a more reliable firearm (this is a really major obvious thing. Makes the bolt action weapons a bit more tasty to use, too).
- Don't overheat the mechanism & barrel.
- Don't submerse the firearm in liquid.
- Don't open the bolt of the firearm or expose an open-bolt (all SMG & MG) firearm to flying particles..
- Don't intentionally slam the firearm into things, especially more fragile variants.
- Don't let the firearm get damaged by dropping it, exposing it to explosives, fragments from explosives, bullets or fire.
'Getting a stoppage would be SO FRUSTRATING so why should it be in there?'
Most of the time chances are nothing special happens when getting a stoppage. Just 1-2 seconds of not shooting a lot of the time. Yeah, maybe missed shooting someone. Yeah, maybe even get killed yourself. Reminds me a lot of having limited ammo and magazines. I like the reload feature a lot, in fact I think the game would be much worse off without it. Having to reload happens to the other person too. It is awesome when someone has to reload just as they would have had me.
'Random factors are bad'
Any shooting is a bit random because of the barrel and ammo not permitting a bullet to fly 100% in the same spot each time even if the weapon is welded stuck to something. Much worse with rapid fire and pistol cartridges. This is like a cone of fire that differs between the weapons. The fatigue / lack of perfect stability in the arms, breathing - also random. Grenades and artillery kills mostly through little metal fragments. It is fully possible to be near one and get lucky, not getting hit at all (in real life at least). And to get hit faaar away, lethally.
Certainly it is not possible to argue that firearm stoppages are bad because they are random without also arguing that the above is also bad. Even Counter-Strike has plenty of random elements even with the shooting even if not as much as Red Orchestra.
The appeal for people like me is that it is realistic. Using random as bad as argument makes me think of the ultimate expression of it: something like Quake where one moves a blob around at high speed in a black environment, trying to center the crosshairs fast enough on the other blobs flying around the place faster than they can on you. Completely un-random, all player skill indeed. Nothing wrong in liking that. Red Orchestra just does not use that as a design philosophy. There is no virtue in avoiding randomness for this reason alone.
There being random heart attacks and such is really not worth spending resources on in my opinion, as it is so immensely improbable anyway.
I am largely in favor of stoppages. I have had an interest in firearms for almost 30 years and I know that it is one of several important realities of them. I think it adds spice, immersion and a new spin on things where one must sometimes improvise unexpectedly, or one is faced with such a person. I can understand if someone doesn't want anything random (although not anyone with such preferences being drawn to anything simulating reality however) but the reasons given in this topic are plain goofy.
'Players have no control over stoppages'
That is similar to saying that we have no control over the chance of accidents in traffic at all. If one does not follow the following guidelines, the risk of stoppage goes up, and it is clear how and why it happened
- Choose a more reliable firearm (this is a really major obvious thing. Makes the bolt action weapons a bit more tasty to use, too).
- Don't overheat the mechanism & barrel.
- Don't submerse the firearm in liquid.
- Don't open the bolt of the firearm or expose an open-bolt (all SMG & MG) firearm to flying particles..
- Don't intentionally slam the firearm into things, especially more fragile variants.
- Don't let the firearm get damaged by dropping it, exposing it to explosives, fragments from explosives, bullets or fire.
'Getting a stoppage would be SO FRUSTRATING so why should it be in there?'
Most of the time chances are nothing special happens when getting a stoppage. Just 1-2 seconds of not shooting a lot of the time. Yeah, maybe missed shooting someone. Yeah, maybe even get killed yourself. Reminds me a lot of having limited ammo and magazines. I like the reload feature a lot, in fact I think the game would be much worse off without it. Having to reload happens to the other person too. It is awesome when someone has to reload just as they would have had me.
'Random factors are bad'
Any shooting is a bit random because of the barrel and ammo not permitting a bullet to fly 100% in the same spot each time even if the weapon is welded stuck to something. Much worse with rapid fire and pistol cartridges. This is like a cone of fire that differs between the weapons. The fatigue / lack of perfect stability in the arms, breathing - also random. Grenades and artillery kills mostly through little metal fragments. It is fully possible to be near one and get lucky, not getting hit at all (in real life at least). And to get hit faaar away, lethally.
Certainly it is not possible to argue that firearm stoppages are bad because they are random without also arguing that the above is also bad. Even Counter-Strike has plenty of random elements even with the shooting even if not as much as Red Orchestra.
The appeal for people like me is that it is realistic. Using random as bad as argument makes me think of the ultimate expression of it: something like Quake where one moves a blob around at high speed in a black environment, trying to center the crosshairs fast enough on the other blobs flying around the place faster than they can on you. Completely un-random, all player skill indeed. Nothing wrong in liking that. Red Orchestra just does not use that as a design philosophy. There is no virtue in avoiding randomness for this reason alone.
There being random heart attacks and such is really not worth spending resources on in my opinion, as it is so immensely improbable anyway.
I have to agree with most of MikkOwl's points that he made so eloquently in his post.
As a firearms enthusiast myself, avoiding stoppages and absolute perfect reliability is simply a falsehood, and given Tripwire's and Red Orchestra's heritage for realism, at the very least leaving it as an option for server hosts would be a welcome addition towards gameplay, especially in the "ultra-realistic" settings that Tripwire's been promising us in their new game.
As a firearms enthusiast myself, avoiding stoppages and absolute perfect reliability is simply a falsehood, and given Tripwire's and Red Orchestra's heritage for realism, at the very least leaving it as an option for server hosts would be a welcome addition towards gameplay, especially in the "ultra-realistic" settings that Tripwire's been promising us in their new game.
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If the jam happened as a result of the conditions or your actions, then yes. For instance, if you pick up a gun that is covered in the intestines and meat chunks of its previous owner, it should have a chance to jam when you use it. If you're crawling through the mud for an elongated period of time, a jam should become possible. If you shoot a gun out of someone's hands by actually shooting the gun itself, well, obviously it's a bit messed up, isn't it?
Jamming should not be a random calculation, however.
Jamming should not be a random calculation, however.
AA is a lot slower paced than RO.
And it was still frustrating when it happened, especially if it caused you to lose a firefight.
I would like to see jamming in the game, especially if there were a feature that increased the chances of this happening rather than leaving it to purely random chance.
And taking temperature would be necessary variable, as if it's hot it does increase the theoretical likelyhood why the gun would jam and if it's cold the same occurs. Poor ammunition may cause relatively unharmful jam if the bullet ejects after jerking around with the bolt for a very brief moment while cold weather may cause the weapon to stop to the point you might need to jerk around for few minutes before it might start working again, and that's somewhat pushing the reasonable limit as let's say a single round lasts 15mins and your gun would jam for few minutes. It would be simpler just to die and respawn if you can't find another (working) gun on the ground anywhere and it goes against the whole idea on pragmatic gameplay terms.
As we are talking about bad ammo here, temperature only has a very minor effect here.
Bad ammo basically means bad primers, aka the round fails to go off. Low temperature can have some effect on this but it's very minor, high temperatures rather increases the relieability of ammo, as the hotter the powder (or primer) is, the more powerful it is.
Yes it's quite marginal, but the whole discussion about possible misfeeds and jams would raise the question that presuming very abstracted bullet quality is taken into account, should they take weapon relaibility into account aswell? If yes, then the temperature would play quite notable role with some basics.