RS Distribution of players between squad leaders

[Jank]

If you think its unbalanced distribution now, just imagine if there was a "change squad leader" button... EVERYONE would be on Squad 1.

Limit the number of people/classes in squad 1 you say? Well that's how it is now, you can choose which squad you want to be Rifleman in...

I do hate picking Squad Leader (my favorite role) and coming up with the all-Rifle Squad... DOH Squad2 NOOOOOOOO!!!

 

[greenlemonade]

First of all, with all due respect:
Do you have to talk like that jergul? We're all impressed with your command of the English language but there's no need to try and sound like H.G. Wells all the time. It's actually counter-productive to communication IMO.

Now in response,
Specifically by requiring 3rd party programs for social groups to team play in game
Can you elaborate? What is wrong with the in-game VOIP? It has a "team" channel that works fine. The "public" channel works for trash-talk/match discussion. The "squad" channel is also perfect for teamplay on a smaller scale. So if the bugs with the "join a squad" menu were fixed it would be even easier than it already is for social groups to join the same squad and stick to "squad chat".
Also note that all 3 channels have "text chat" as well. ALL this is accomplished without any annoying 3rd party software. Clans use Teamspeak because they want it and not because they need it.
Last but not least we have Steam. People can join through Steam friends, groups, events ect. RO2/RS is GREAT for social groups to team play as is.

and demonstratably by typically having no more than 0-1 functioning team orientated small units on a side.
Many players (myself included) believe this is because of the "Choose a Role" menu assigning almost all of the players to Squad 1. The suggestion to make Squad 1 Riflemen and making the last 3 Riflemen on each squad "Join a Squad" ONLY slots would solve this issue by splitting everyone into nearly equal squads while still giving players the option to join any squad they want with "Join a Squad".

It is irrational to give up a weapon on the off-chance of finding a more functional squad leader, and when compounded by an awkward change squad procedure, leads to players not using that function. So people suffer the squad leader they have generally.
You might be right about a Flamethrower role as those are highly coveted so in that situation the player should just suck it up and deal with it. Seems realistic.
With every other Role in the game, Rifleman isn't really a step down for most experienced players.
What is so awkward about clicking the "Change Role" button after you die?




I hope I dont come off sounding hostile but the suggestions I've made are minor tweaks to the current system that essentially accomplish the same thing you're suggesting.
There is only one acceptation and that is your belief that we should have even larger Squads which I am adamantly against. It's already crowded enough with 9 players spawning on one SL. The suggestions I've made wouldn't eliminate 10 person squads. it would just make them more of a choice and not the default (which is something I think that both of us want).

 

[jergul]

First of all, with all due respect:
Do you have to talk like that jergul? We're all impressed with your command of the English language but there's no need to try and sound like H.G. Wells all the time. It's actually counter-productive to communication IMO.

Now in response,
Specifically by requiring 3rd party programs for social groups to team play in game
Can you elaborate? What is wrong with the in-game VOIP? It has a "team" channel that works fine. The "public" channel works for trash-talk/match discussion. The "squad" channel is also perfect for teamplay on a smaller scale. So if the bugs with the "join a squad" menu were fixed it would be even easier than it already is for social groups to join the same squad and stick to "squad chat".
Also note that all 3 channels have "text chat" as well. ALL this is accomplished without any annoying 3rd party software. Clans use Teamspeak because they want it and not because they need it.
Last but not least we have Steam. People can join through Steam friends, groups, events ect. RO2/RS is GREAT for social groups to team play as is.

and demonstratably by typically having no more than 0-1 functioning team orientated small units on a side.
Many players (myself included) believe this is because of the "Choose a Role" menu assigning almost all of the players to Squad 1. The suggestion to make Squad 1 Riflemen and making the last 3 Riflemen on each squad "Join a Squad" ONLY slots would solve this issue by splitting everyone into nearly equal squads while still giving players the option to join any squad they want with "Join a Squad".

It is irrational to give up a weapon on the off-chance of finding a more functional squad leader, and when compounded by an awkward change squad procedure, leads to players not using that function. So people suffer the squad leader they have generally.
You might be right about a Flamethrower role as those are highly coveted so in that situation the player should just suck it up and deal with it. Seems realistic.
With every other Role in the game, Rifleman isn't really a step down for most experienced players.
What is so awkward about clicking the "Change Role" button after you die?




I hope I dont come off sounding hostile but the suggestions I've made are minor tweaks to the current system that essentially accomplish the same thing you're suggesting.
There is only one acceptation and that is your belief that we should have even larger Squads which I am adamantly against. It's already crowded enough with 9 players spawning on one SL. The suggestions I've made wouldn't eliminate 10 person squads. it would just make them more of a choice and not the default (which is something I think that both of us want).

The ingame VIOP is great. But players from the same social group cannot use the squad channel simply because they cannot be in the same squad in any systematic manner.

If you want to play with some friends or some clanmates and want to use VOIP, then you need to use a 3rd party program. This is strongly indicative of poor design implementation.

I believe that 1/3 of players are team orientated and that you need a certain number of team players combined with a team orientated squad leader to gain a functioning squad.

Equal division without a mechanism allowing team players to gravitate towards team squad leaders simply assure that not squad will ever have enough team orientated players in them. You will simply have too few team players in each squad for team play to function or matter. So 0 functioning team playing squads.

Full squads (unequal distribution) at least give the basic team orientated player numbers quite often. Then all the full squads need is to luck out and get a team orientated squad leader. Or 0-1 functioning team playing squads.

People will not give up weapons on the off chance of landing in a functioning team playing squad. This is demonstrably true. Because that option exists now and is not used in a manner that gives more team playing squads.

I am also just suggesting a tweak to the current system:

1. Add change squad leader option to the respawn location overlay.
2. Increase number of redundant slots to infinity.

This is in part also a moral issue. Players should not be forced to do something unless there is very good reason.

What exactly is the reason for not allowing players to gravitate towards other social subgroups (squads) if the one they spawn in initially is dysfunctional?

 

[jergul]

Since we are sort of on the big picture anyway...

Here is what I think.

TWI can do anything it wants, but not everything it wants. The company has recently made some profoundly astute decisions. But lacks the mass to followup decisively.

The company has not clearly defined what it does in my opinion. "Making games they want to play" is a weak guiding beacon. So I took the liberty of formulating what it does in my eyes:

TWI provides authentic narratives for unscripted actors to elaborate. This is true of RS, this is true of KF. Though the narrative is vastly different of course. It should be true of all future publications.

So in my view, the only things worth doing relate to either improving stories, or adding new ones. In the case of RS/HOS, the only relevant question about any suggestion would be "So, how does that improve the stories maps are trying to tell?"

I also know that ideally, TWI should release new and/or revamped content every 10-12 weeks and combine that with a promotional steam event such as free weekends. The active player base increases permanently by 20% every time it does.

I think it a strong approach to deal with issues thematically: "Revamped Squad System" is better than a series of small tweaks simply because it adds meat to the bone of an ideal 10 week update cycle.

I am pretty sure my elaborated suggestion here is the best choice. Simply because it contributes most profoundly to improving the story any map tries to tell.

The suggestion itself is relatively simple. The justifications of course complex as RS/HOS is a complex game.

I have exactly 4 other game issues I think should be dealt with in a thematic way. So there are not really too many things I care about. Which ultimately means that to me RS-HOS is a very good game.

 

[greenlemonade]

The ingame VIOP is great. But players from the same social group cannot use the squad channel simply because they cannot be in the same squad in any systematic manner.

If you want to play with some friends or some clanmates and want to use VOIP, then you need to use a 3rd party program. This is strongly indicative of poor design implementation.

Why can't friends all join the same squad? It's very easy to do and when the beta (which fixed the Join Squad Menu) goes live it will be even easier. Myself and 4 friends use the Squad system and squad chat and it works great. How is that not possable in a "systematic manner"?

How is this "strongly indicative of poor design"?? What are you compairing it to? How many games go as far as RO2 did with its 3 channel VOIP ingame? You seem to want to jump on the same squad with 10+ clan mates and teamplay in public games. We call that "Pub-stopping" and no game company should ever encourage that.

Equal division without a mechanism allowing team players to gravitate towards team squad leaders simply assure that not squad will ever have enough team orientated players in them. You will simply have too few team players in each squad for team play to function or matter. So 0 functioning team playing squads.
So you're saying on a 32 person team, with the change suggested the default of 4 squads of 7 players each plus 2 MG teams and solo slots for snipers and Commander would produce 0 functioning team playing squads? Also consider that with these proposed changes players would have the option to join ANY of the 4 squads using the "Join a Squad" reserved Rifleman slots. I'm sorry, but that's bull ****. I've been on plenty of squads smaller than 7 men in Pub games that functioned as a team quite well. The current system and any other system that would allow squads larger than 10 is when we see 1 huge squad that may or may not be teamplaying and a couple 4 man squads. Encoraging (but not forcing) players to form 4 squads of equal size gives all 4 SLs a change to whip their squad into shape. It also means a group of 10 friends can still rush onto Squad 3 or 4 and teamplay. Clans will have to split into 2 squads if they want to "pub stomp"

People will not give up weapons on the off chance of landing in a functioning team playing squad. This is demonstrably true. Because that option exists now and is not used in a manner that gives more team playing squads.
I've said this before but you might've missed it. I have actually done this many times! I have given up Assault for Rifleman because of a bad SL. I have chosen Rifleman MANY times to be on the same Squad as a friend or group member and I didn't care at all. I rushed to be SL2 on a 64 person server because I didn't feel like being a Spawn-point 90% of the time. LOADS of people won't care because Rifleman is a good role. Many more will suck it up and deal with the SL to keep that Flamethrower role.
I believe the proposed changes would increase the amount of people who utilize "Join a Squad" because there will then be 4 valid squads of 4-6 people to choose from. Currently, everyone just wants to be on Squad 1 because its the only one with people on it.

2. Increase number of redundant slots to infinity.
30 players spawning on 1 Squad leader? This would be insanely crowded and silly. It would also make redesigning the spawning far more difficult. Currently you can see what squads everyone is in with the "Join a Squad" menu. Having infinite redundant slots would mean a dynamic display that can show everyone and anyone in any Squad. Squad limits are a good thing tactically too! You want multiple squads for flanking, distraction, multiple objectives, Attacking and defending ect. Not one big squad that can be wiped with 1 Artillery.

This is in part also a moral issue. Players should not be forced to do something unless there is very good reason.

What exactly is the reason for not allowing players to gravitate towards other social subgroups (squads) if the one they spawn in initially is dysfunctional?
"Moral issue"? That's a little over-dramatic. Who said players cant join different Squads? That's what those extra 3 slots are for. Players also leave, opening other slots on other squads if they REALLY don't want to play Rifleman but really, someone has got to do it. How childish is it to want one of the few Flame/Elite/Assault/Mortar roles AND choose ANY Squad and change your mind every time you spawn? That's not teamplay. That's just treating SLs as Spawn points.

I am pretty sure my elaborated suggestion here is the best choice. Simply because it contributes most profoundly to improving the story any map tries to tell.
Your suggestion is to completely scrap the current system and replace it with a copy of Battlefield 2/3 spawning. How does 30 guys spawning on 1 Squad leader hiding in the corner of a basement "improve the story?"

The current system is great! It just needs some tweaks to encourage(not force) people to utilize it.

 

[Nobex]

Throw a proper squad leading system in players face to begin with atleast:IS2: