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RS Distribution of players between squad leaders

Yes, players SHOULD be divided between the squads so ALL squads have EQUAL MEMBERS!

The most easy way to do this would be:

1st Rifleman on the server would be assigned to squad 1
2nd Rifleman on the server would be assigned to squad 2
3rd Rifleman on the server would be assigned to squad 3

4th Rifleman would be assigned to squad 1 again, and so on...

much better solution than: everybody gets into squad 1 till its full, and then the next squad is filled. :(
 
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What do you mean? EVERY time a player dies he can click "Change Role" and join a different squad if he's not happy with his current one. Eliminating the slots would be a huge step in the wrong direction. The Squad system allows for mini teams within the larger team. This encourages communication and stratagy on a smaller scale. Stuff like "Squad 2 is gathering at the right flank for a Banzai charge" and "Squad 1 is moving to cap B".

I'll say it again. Reducing the slots in a squad from 9 to 6 would solve the distribution problem and make for 2-4 even squads instead of 1 giant squad and 3 useless Squad Leaders:
Solo: COMMANDER

Squad 1:
SQUAD LEADER
RIFLEMAN.........RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN
RIFLEMAN.........RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN

Squad 2:
SQUAD LEADER
ASSAULT.......ASSAULT.......ELITE RIFLE
RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN

Solo: MARKSMAN

MG Team:
MACHINE GUN.....RIFLEMAN.......RIFLEMAN

Every time a player dies he has the option to change squads.

Trying to design base squads that cover the class variations in game is trying to shove square pegs into holes. I know. I have tried.

The problem is fundamentally that 32 players deploy on map as a pseudo platoon, and the weapon classes represented in game are far beyond what any platoon had organically.

I am not adverse to simply having the sum of all slots for any weapon to be greater than the sum of class roles with those weapons. But it is a needless complication.

If the squad set up is arbitrary, then why not let players control the arbitrary distribution?

It will of course help team work immensely as team players can easily join the squads of their choice for as long as one of them holds SL class. This also explains why the max size of any squad should be quite high (in 13-15 range) as some groups of friends might be so large, while there also may be non-friends in the squad who are along for the ride.

Kicking them seems a meaningless insult when you can simply have a max size large enough to cover most eventualities.

This in addition to the other benefits mentioned.

I know about 4 things concerning RS/RO2. This issue is one of the things I know extremely well :).
 
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It's not hard to design base squads that cover the class variations Jergul. I just did it:
Solo: COMMANDER

Squad 1:
SQUAD LEADER
RIFLEMAN.........RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN
RIFLEMAN.........RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN

Squad 2:
SQUAD LEADER
ASSAULT.......ASSAULT.......ELITE RIFLE
RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN......RIFLEMAN

Solo: MARKSMAN

MG Team:
MACHINE GUN.....RIFLEMAN.......RIFLEMAN



The problem with squad distribution is squad size. 7 is more than large enough. 10 its just too large. I realize that a real-world squad would consist of about this many but we should also take into account "Spawn on SL". It doesn't mean solders teleport to a SL. It simulates that the Squad Member was in the area the whole time.

As for saying that groups of 15 friends will want to join the same squad, that's kinda pushing it. 7 is a nice manageable number. It makes it easier to become familiar with the members in your squad. It also means that the SL need not JUST be a spawn point.
So 4 quads of 7 makes 28. The remaining 4 are outside roles with some extra Riflemen supporting the MGs (you've got to have extra Riflemen in case non-premium RS players are the last to choose roles.


I guess what I'm saying is this seems like cut and dry solution. :)
 
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Its a cut and dry solution to something at least.

No insult intended. I played around with that approach myself. Its basically breaking down historical squads into subordinate fireteams suitably sized to match weapons attached to HQs at various levels. You could expand to include all weapons that way. It is good because it creates something with a mild historical anchor based on fireteams more than squads.

The point issue is a trigger for action more than anything. Something must be done.

It is then important to remember that squads are meant to facilitate team work. If they do not do that, then squads could simply be done away with altogether (players then choosing what SL to spawn on from a random list of SLders). So back to RO with a twist.

In public play you need a lot of squad members to do the most elementary of tactics - staggered advance (where the squad fans out and advances, and the SL follows them with a safe spacing and timed to re-enforcement waves).

A low cap on max squad members is troublesome because you cannot get the number of team players you need in any squad to have people to cooperate with.

It also keeps players from changing squads as there simply is no where for them to go. Let alone go to the squad they want to be in.

Friend will seldom be allowed to join the same squad unless you can boot poeple in a squad. Which is bad because doing so is pretty intrusive and even if you could, where would the booted players go?

Team players work around this of course by using 3rd party software to make their own squads independent of what squads they belong to ingame. Which is a function of poor game design if this is what team players must do, and the intent of the game is to provide for teamplay opportunities.

The 13-15 number is not random, and is not meant to represent an average number of players in a squad (there should be about 5 squads in my mind, so we agree on that part for sure)

It simply is what you need as a max cap to allow team players to join the squad they want to join. If they can, then they will tend to use ingame coms a lot more. Which reflects good game design.

This is not fiction btw. The MERC clan for example is silent if and only if they are doing clan play and are on TS. Otherwise - Mercspam for the more informal occassions. To name one example.

You also need a sufficiently high cap to allow random pubbers to stay in a squad even as team players accumulate in it. Its inclusive and helps stimulate a more teamplay based environment simply by exposing pubbers to the experience at a squad level. It will rub off.

The third point is taking advantage of the point system to professionalize SL play. It would be very good if players could reward SLders with respawn points if the SLders are doing what the player wants them to, and reward other SLders with the same points if the former SL is not doing what the player thinks he should (alive is usually the most important thing. Followed by being somewhere relevant).

To be able to reward or deny reward is only possible if a player can freely and easily move to a different squad. For example by having a 1-click change SL option in the respawn location overlay.

A forth point is of couse clan requirements. Clans need up to 15 slots per squad and the free choice of weapons (subject to class limitations of course) within that squad. And clans are important to the community. They fund servers for one thing, and they help maintain healthy player bases is another.

Clans can of course work around squad limitations that do not work for them. But having to do so is again a reflection of poor game design in so far as the squad system is meant to promote teamplay in the first place.

Words. Many words. I hope you see where I am coming from :).
 
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I think the biggest problem lies in Class/Squad selection menu. Instead of Class+Weapon | Squad selection pages there should be Class+Squad | Weapon pages.

There should be squad tree on the right side of class selection page instead of displaying weapons/upgrades. So class/squad/weapon selection procedure could be the following:
  1. Player selects a class he wants to play on the left side of the same screen.
  2. Available slots for the selected class are highlighted in squad tree on the right side of the screen. Additionally it would be nice, if Steam friends would be highlighted too. So friends could easily find each other to play in the same squad.
  3. Game automatically suggests the squad by the following priorities (in highest to lowest order):
    a) Squad leader is your Steam friend
    b) Highest number of friends playing in this squad
    c) If there is no friends playing, squad with lowest member count should be suggested first.
  4. Player can accept auto-given squad by pressing the "Select" button or choose another squad by clicking on any highlighted slot.
  5. After selecting a squad, weapon/upgrade selection page is displayed. This will also prevent "Role has been already taken" issue, when player had selected the class but haven't chosen weapons/upgrades yet.
 
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Its a cut and dry solution to something at least.

No insult intended. I played around with that approach myself. Its basically breaking down historical squads into subordinate fireteams suitably sized to match weapons attached to HQs at various levels. You could expand to include all weapons that way. It is good because it creates something with a mild historical anchor based on fireteams more than squads.

The point issue is a trigger for action more than anything. Something must be done.

It is then important to remember that squads are meant to facilitate team work. If they do not do that, then squads could simply be done away with altogether (players then choosing what SL to spawn on from a random list of SLders). So back to RO with a twist.

In public play you need a lot of squad members to do the most elementary of tactics - staggered advance (where the squad fans out and advances, and the SL follows them with a safe spacing and timed to re-enforcement waves).

A low cap on max squad members is troublesome because you cannot get the number of team players you need in any squad to have people to cooperate with.

It also keeps players from changing squads as there simply is no where for them to go. Let alone go to the squad they want to be in.

Friend will seldom be allowed to join the same squad unless you can boot poeple in a squad. Which is bad because doing so is pretty intrusive and even if you could, where would the booted players go?

Team players work around this of course by using 3rd party software to make their own squads independent of what squads they belong to ingame. Which is a function of poor game design if this is what team players must do, and the intent of the game is to provide for teamplay opportunities.

The 13-15 number is not random, and is not meant to represent an average number of players in a squad (there should be about 5 squads in my mind, so we agree on that part for sure)

It simply is what you need as a max cap to allow team players to join the squad they want to join. If they can, then they will tend to use ingame coms a lot more. Which reflects good game design.

This is not fiction btw. The MERC clan for example is silent if and only if they are doing clan play and are on TS. Otherwise - Mercspam for the more informal occassions. To name one example.

You also need a sufficiently high cap to allow random pubbers to stay in a squad even as team players accumulate in it. Its inclusive and helps stimulate a more teamplay based environment simply by exposing pubbers to the experience at a squad level. It will rub off.

The third point is taking advantage of the point system to professionalize SL play. It would be very good if players could reward SLders with respawn points if the SLders are doing what the player wants them to, and reward other SLders with the same points if the former SL is not doing what the player thinks he should (alive is usually the most important thing. Followed by being somewhere relevant).

To be able to reward or deny reward is only possible if a player can freely and easily move to a different squad. For example by having a 1-click change SL option in the respawn location overlay.

A forth point is of couse clan requirements. Clans need up to 15 slots per squad and the free choice of weapons (subject to class limitations of course) within that squad. And clans are important to the community. They fund servers for one thing, and they help maintain healthy player bases is another.

Clans can of course work around squad limitations that do not work for them. But having to do so is again a reflection of poor game design in so far as the squad system is meant to promote teamplay in the first place.

Words. Many words. I hope you see where I am coming from :).

I do see where you're coming from.
I will say those tactics that require large numbers can still be done with the slightly smaller squads suggested above. Just coordinate with another Squad Leader. Please also remember that larger Squads only benefit SL1 and make SL3/4 have no squad to lead at all.

As for the historic standpoint, there may only be 7 in a squad at any given time, but having someone die and respawn on the SL simulates the squad being larger than the number of players in it. So it isn't unrealistic to have a 7 man squad because there are more solders than 7.

Now back to the point of Squads: Team play.
Having a squad of 7 is more manageable in most cases. You can become a more coheasive unit who is familiar with each other. Adding those extra 3 people isn't helping with team play in most cases. If anything it's promoting the idea that there are people just choosing to use SL as a spawn point and nothing more.

Last but not least is the "full Squad" syndrome. While it's true that with slightly smaller squads friends may have a more difficult time joining the same squad they still have the option of scrolling down to SL3/4 or forming an MG team if its just 3 players. There will also of course be inevitable gaps. If Friend 1 chooses SL2, even if strangers snatch up the Assault and Elite Rifle, the Rifleman roles will still be available until Squad one fills all the way up with Rifleman. I think we'll find it surprisingly easy to join the squad we want with the suggested change because ALL the squads will be made more desirable. Not just Squad 1.


p.s. Good discussion. This needs to get talked about more. :)
 
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My personal preferance would be an initial spawn:

TL - JAPANESE = 1
3 x sniper = 3
2 x rifle squad (depleted) SL, MG, 6 riflemen = 16
1 x smg [HQ] squad (depleted) SL, MG, 3 SMG = 5
1 x mortar squad (depleted) SL, 3 mortars, 3 riflemen = 7
= 32

TL - US = 1
3 x Sniper = 3
2 (3) x Rifle team (depleted) 1 SL, 1 BAR 4 riflemen = 12 (18)
1 x MG team (depleted) 1 SL, 2 MG, 2 riflemen = 5
1 x Flame team (depleted) 1 SL, 2 FT, 2 riflemen = 5
1(0) x Demolition team (depleted) 1 SL, 2 CE, 4 riflemen = 6
= 32

TL - German = 1
2 x Sniper
4 x Mg team (depleted) 1 SL, 1 MG 2 riflemen = 16
2 x Assault team (depleted) 1 SL, 1 CE, 2 SMG = 8
1 x AT team (depleted) 1 SL, 2 AT, 2 riflemen = 5
= 32

TL - Russian = 1
4 x Sniper
2 x Mg team (depleted) 1 SL, 1 MG, 4 riflemen = 12
2 x Assault team (depleted) 1 SL, 1 CE, 3 SMG = 10
1 x AT team (depleted) 1 SL, 2 AT, 2 riflemen = 5
= 32

(note variable number of SLders and variable number of snipers by nationality to support narrative. The Japanese get their sniper MGs too on realism. Sort Mkb under smg, sort semi under rifle).

===============

So we do not see things terribly differently on initial spawn and we both seem to think a fire team basis (or depleted squads) is the best conceptual approach.

However, what then?

I believe it would improve the game dramatically if players (not TL or snipers) are given free autonomity at this point and should be allowed to join any squad they like on any future respawn. Within reasonable (13-15 max slot) limits in any one squad and without any specific class limits in any squad.

I think I have given the reasons clearly above.

If we want team work, then let players that want organize teams as they like with enough room to allow casual players to tag along if they choose.

There are other spill-off benefits such as reward-denial of reward to help professionalize the SL class, while marginalizing the game effects of uncooperative SLders just in the class for the cool weapons. To name two of them.
 
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Squad system.

Squad system.

A squad should be somewhere between 6 and 15 soldiers. With
0-14 players one squad. 15-32 2 squads and 1 guy as commander and 1 marksman.

The officer class will be squad leader and platoon leader.

A squad should be between 6 and at the most 15 soldiers

For americans

Squad leader

Rifleman-Rifleman-Rifleman-Automatic rifleman-engineer

Rifleman-Rifleman-rifleman-Automatic rifleman-flamethrower

Machine gunner- rifleman-rifleman-rifleman

For japan

Squad leader

Assault-Rifleman-Rifleman-Rifleman-engineer or rifleman

Rifleman-Light mortar-Light mortar-Rifleman-Rifleman

Machine gunner-Rifleman-Rifleman-Rifleman
 
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Just assign player to random free slot, no additional complex tweaking needed.

No one has suggested complex tweaking. The suggestions are all pretty simple, the justifications are of course complex because RS is a complex game.

Bottom line. Squads were introduced to facilitate team play and they function poorly as is. Organized team players need to use 3rd party programs, and that is symptomatic of poor design.

When I play SL a typical breakdown would be as follows: Of 10 players, 2 will use mic or chat to communicate in squad, 1 will use the command functions to communicate, 2 will say nothing but be with the program. Of the other 5, 2 will coincidentally be doing something useful. So in total 6 of 11. Which is the best you can get using ingame coms. It usually is a lot less because you need an active SL to bring that about.

I use TS with my clan mates because their weapon choices will never allow us to be in the same squad.
 
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The way it is now it seems that only S1 is compeltely filled automatically.

The other squads are almost never completely full.

When Im SL2, 3 or 4 I keep spamming on chat for the players to join a squad in order to keep the re-spawning flow going.

Why all other squads other than S1 wont get filled automatically is beyond me....

I think I alluded to it above. As it stands, the only way its worthwhile to be an active SL is if you have a full squad. You get 5 guys of 10 team playing by design or happenstance.

Which is minimum for pretty basic tactics (staggered advance - push forward - give me a bubble I can advance in so you can respawn further forward).

If the team divides equally between SLds then no SL will ever have enough team players to team play.

Hence the focus on player autonomity. They should be able to accumulate in squads as they choose. Team playing SLders will then get the team playing players. The shoot and boot SLders get to shoot and boot.
 
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Jergul,
Your squad makeup suggestion seems pretty darn good, though that's a bit too many snipers for a 32 person game.

I still disagree with allowing players to then switch into squads up to 13-15 max. First of all, its more confusing and I'm sure MUCH harder to program.
And like I said, the squad system is best (IMO) when it encourages everyone in a particular squad to work together. By the end of the match, you should be more familiar with your little group. If people really don't like their SL, they can "change role" on any respawn. Also note that allowing people to basically "choose" the best SL to spawn on at that given time would unbalance most maps. Can you imagine always being able to spawn on the best possible SL? The action would be so fast paced and battlefields would be so cluttered and tickets would run out soo much faster. :)
 
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Jergul,
Your squad makeup suggestion seems pretty darn good, though that's a bit too many snipers for a 32 person game.

I still disagree with allowing players to then switch into squads up to 13-15 max. First of all, its more confusing and I'm sure MUCH harder to program.
And like I said, the squad system is best (IMO) when it encourages everyone in a particular squad to work together. By the end of the match, you should be more familiar with your little group. If people really don't like their SL, they can "change role" on any respawn. Also note that allowing people to basically "choose" the best SL to spawn on at that given time would unbalance most maps. Can you imagine always being able to spawn on the best possible SL? The action would be so fast paced and battlefields would be so cluttered and tickets would run out soo much faster. :)

I had abuse controlled this concept analytically. Changing SL'ders puts you in a random new squad instead of a squad of your choice specifically to avoid abuse.

Changing roles is not a viable approach to a team player gravitating towards team squad leaders system. Simply because you know what you have (the weapon you want and a SL you suffer), but not what you might get. Though I am open to simply having redundant class slots in all squads in total to allow players to change, it remains a redundancy.

Removing weapon slots in squads is actually a simplification, not a complication.

The number of snipers suggested was designed to give nationalities a certain flavour. I do not find the weapons themselves particularly overpowered as quite a degree of skill is required to use a sniper rifle in a safe range from other weapons.

The Japanese need 3 to give the right narrative flavour.
The US need 3 to counter the sniper mg available at level 50
The Russians need 4 to support national flavour.
The Germans should have significantly less for same reason

It should be seen in context of number of squad leaders by nationality too.

But its not a vital point. The main thing is to approach the squad system from a fire team basis instead of a squad basis and allow players to gravitate towards better SLders from there.

There is an opportunity cost implicit to the breakdown. An smg squad is actually quite powerful. More so than a mixed squad. Same goes for mixing and matching different weapons. 30. cal would be better spawned farther back, and flamethrowers forward for example. So there is a price attached to abandoning the squad you start with.

You could tack on a negative point score to switching SLders to further discourage people spamming the function without good reason.

But remember what this is meant to do. A team playing unit = a critical mass of team players + a team playing squad leader.

We get 0-1 team playing units per side today. I would like to see that increase to 1-3 team playing units per side.

Which I think my suggestion does without changing player behaviour at all. It simply links up team players with team squadleaders.
 
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First in regards to Snipers, I agree with your suggestion of an increase in Russian snipers and perhaps even 1 extra Japanese sniper but don't think extra U.S. snipers are needed to counter a level 50 MG that isn't in most maps. The U.S. has plenty of great weapons. Anyhow, good suggestion for adding flavor! :)


As for removing Squads in favor of "Spawn on any SL", I think it's counter-productive to the cause of encouraging teamplay. Good TLs give orders to specific squads and this is even more effective when the squads are in equal numbers.
For instance, if you are defending A and B and you have Squads 1 and 2, both comprised of 8 solders, you can say: SL1, defend A. SL2 Defend B. You can even use the orders widget to direct them to do so.
The current system has SL1 and his massive squad spawning on him often overloading things and creating chaos.
I believe your suggested system would also foster this chaos because players will just spawn on the SL they think is closest to the action.

Having a smaller squad creates stability that fosters co-operation, communication and teamwork. The only problem with the current system is that Squad 1 is way too big most of the time and Squads 3 and 4 are empty.
 
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hehe, yes, we will see how it plays out with the sniper-mgs. But an extra US sniper is the likely fix to a number of exploitables. It does play into the US solving problems technologically too if you look at it that way. But in sum, snipers are not nearly as overpowered as they were pre-iron sight zoom, so I dont worry too much about them creating unbalances (there is an opportunity cost too - a sniper is not a capper).

I tried to look at what is going down with team play analytically.

1/3 of players overall are team players on the average public play map. It should be like this as a level higher than 1/3 indicates the game has become inaccessable to casual players.

You need a sufficient mass of team players in a unit with a team squad leader for that unit to be considered a team playing unit.

As it stands, you get the mass of team players + a team squad leader combination in 0-1 units on average. Which is too low objectively.

Not in sense that TWI must cater to team player needs, but for two fundamental reasons:

1. Team players aligned in social groups (from a few friends to clans) need to use 3rd party programs to bypass the limitations of cooperative play functionality. No game should require 3rd party programs to meet its own criteria for what it wants to be.

2. Team play is important to the narrative, or story each map tells. Not only because some players want to team play, but because all players expect to see groups of men moving about as cooperative units. It fits with what we think a authentic wwii game should be.

The infrastructure is there. The problem relates to allowing team players to gravitate towards team squad leaders in sufficient mass and thus create more team playing small units.

I am not suggesting base units are removed. I think the number should vary according to nationality and increase on average. The default initial spawn could be exactly like today, or tweaked for better internal logic as I suggest. The important thing being that players start off in squads they are allocated to through weapon choice and chance. The question is what should happen then? My answer is to let players gravitate towards the team playing squad leaders if they want to.

In terms of authenticity - we both seem to agree that "fire teams" are a better basis than "squads" for small units. It provides a better internal logic that allows for the attachment of any imaginable infantry manned weapon as squad attachment is not inferred initially.


But if you allow players to gravitate towards the squad leaders they like, then you are actually just saying that soldiers can gravitate towards their squad leader instead of functioning in a subunit of that squad. In the same way that flamethrowers are not just tossed into battle, they link up with squads to perform tasks.

This in the abstract through the function of "change squad leader" in the respawn location overlay. Instead of some ludicrously complex system of squads and sub-squads (fireteams) - which would function poorly due to being overspecified.

I think it a worthy goal to increase team playing units from 0-1 today to 1-3 in the future through the mechanisms I have suggested. Based primarily on a narrative perspective, but underlined by the arguments provided here and elsewhere.
 
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Spawn on SL is the problem. In realism a good SL is prone in a corner just outside cap and maybe a smoke grenade sometimes., In classic he is the guy who leads the attack throws smoke protects rifleman in close combat with smg and rifleman protect him form long range with rifle.:IS2:
 
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I agree that this is a very big problem in RO2's gameplay. It is a flaw that has been ignored since the very beginning, but now that the series is starting to retain a sizeable playerbase, maybe TWI can consider looking into improving this.

I propose a simple, easily-implemented solution: Re-organize all squads so that there are only 64 slots ever available on a 64 person server. Then force squad 1 to be full before squad 2 opens, and then 2 to be full before 3 opens, and so forth... This is already possible in the SDK. TWI and the mappers just have to make use of it to get the desired result. Perhaps allowing up to 70 slots (anti-tank, or extra riflemen, etc.) will be OK, but what we have now is just stupid and does not take advantage of the RO2 squad system at all.
 
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Spawn on SL is the problem. In realism a good SL is prone in a corner just outside cap and maybe a smoke grenade sometimes., In classic he is the guy who leads the attack throws smoke protects rifleman in close combat with smg and rifleman protect him form long range with rifle.:IS2:

Not in regards to team play. The respawn system destroys squad integrity, so if playing with respawns, then you need a mechanism to keep players in proximity of their team playing sub-unit.

I would play classic exclusively if it had a spawn on sl function and one other thing. I play realism exclusively, though think classic is far superior for scrimmages, count down, and other events where repawning is not a huge factor.
 
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