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Tactics Burn the Scrake. Burn the Fleshpound. Burn them Good.

I've noticed player prejudice commonly toward the firebug. Common chatter in voice chat is that of, "firebug is useless." Also the prevailing notion, and the one that I'd like to address, is that setting scrakes and flesh pounds on fire is a terrible idea. It is my experience, from extensive playtime, that these attitudes are mostly wrong.

This idea, I think, needs to be debunked and replaced with the standing order of, "Firebugs make everything burn!" Furthermore, I'll be writing under the assumption that the KF wiki ( http://kf-wiki.com/wiki/Firebug ) tactics statement of, "Any crisped specimen will take extra damage from attacks and will be slowed..." is true. Though, I would be interested in clarification of this alleged damage bonus and slow 'crisped' zeds receive.

My first assertion that it's nearly always a good idea to light scrakes on fire. A single shot from a flamethrower followed by full burn time will not cause a Scrake charge on anything but the lowest difficulties or games with 1-2 players. Assuming no other damage contributors but a single incendiary round, burn damage triggering a charge in itself will not occur outside circumstances where the scrake has so little total hp that it could be considered a non-threat. This is partly assuming the legitimacy of the wiki claim that crisped enemies take more damage from attacks and / or the slow from crisping has effect. Even so, if a flailing-animation is triggered before a scrake reaches the rage threshold the animation will continue, causing a scrake to wander, until its conclusion even if its health is then dropped enough to trigger rage: this can be quite useful.

Currently there's an excellent write up on specimen behavior by Scary Ghost @ http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=49922

Concerning flesh pounds it is well known to all of us that the fleshpound will rage if it takes a lot of damage in a short amount of time. Scary Ghost' write-up makes an additional note on the dps-oriented rage trigger:

"twoSecondDamageTotal is only reset if 2 seconds have passed since the fleshpound last received damage."

implying that if a Flesh Pound were on fire, taking damage every second, the rage trigger measuring damage taken would keep accumulating until enough damage was done to cause rage. However, in my recent tests of melee kiting burning flesh pounds with a berserker equipped with husk gun; dps triggered rage has been completely avoided even while keeping a FP on fire whilst taking a katana swing at his head every ~3 seconds.

Perhaps fire is a special exception for FP dps oriented rage conditions, the twoSecondDamageTotal timer keeps ticking arbitrarily and regardless of incoming damage.

I will say, though, in many of my tests the flesh pound did rage after completing a flailing animation, during which time I could not get him to take a swing at me. Because rage did not always occur after a flailing animation, it is my belief these rages were due to his "frustration timer" being exceeded, but I am not certain. Therefore, it may be wise not to light a flesh pound being kited by a fast mover medic / berserker but even that burning flesh pound is not necessarily any more a liability than a non-burning target. As an aside, the kiting of flesh pounds is typically a very unreasonable method for any team playing a difficult map (ie: one with dense spawns, narrow passages, and small rooms).

In conclusion: you've been fed firebug prejudice and lies! Burn everything with the sole, possible, exception of a fleshpound that you are certain will be skillfully kited by a medic or zerker.
 
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As far as I know, yes, cripsening does make zeds take more damage and definitely makes them move slower.

Occassionally you'll get a problem from when the zed panics because a sharpshooter will be trying to xbow him through the head, except he's flailing around mindlessly instead, but this doesn't happen that often.

As far as I knew, fleshpounds kept a running total of damage that had been dealt in the last 2 seconds, so if you hit a FP for 50 damage every half second, it'll never rage it (ie. similar to fire mechanics).

However, my biggest problem with setting a scrake or FP on fire, is that unless you're kiting and can put off dealing with them, on higher difficulty modes, zeds move faster and they'll get to you WAY before the 10 second burn point that they crispen up, in which case all you've done is taken off a little bit of their health. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not the good thing that we were hoping for.
 
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I've noticed player prejudice commonly toward the firebug. Common chatter in voice chat is that of, "firebug is useless."
It is. It's DoT when the specimens are fast enough that they can reach you long before they burn.
Also the prevailing notion, and the one that I'd like to address, is that setting scrakes and flesh pounds on fire is a terrible idea. It is my experience, from extensive playtime, that these attitudes are mostly wrong.
...unless you or a teammate can reliably solo them. In which case all it does is compete for aggro and inevitably send the scrake or FP after the firebug. Have you tried to take a crispy FP with an M14?
 
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drivebymessiah said:
In conclusion: you've been fed firebug prejudice and lies! Burn everything with the sole, possible, exception of a fleshpound that you are certain will be skillfully kited by a medic or zerker.

All I will say is, NO!

In my experience, I really hate Firebugs who constantly light up Scrakes and Fleshpounds (even after I repeatedly ask them not to). The main reason being that flailing panic animation. When a Scrake goes into this animation, it becomes very difficult to land headshots on them. This becomes especially problematic if there are multiple Scrakes coming and I'm the only Sharpshooter. While I'm trying to kill this burning Scrake that flailing around like a fish out of water, it buys the other Scrakes precious seconds to close the gap between them and my team. Now imagine what happens when the Firebug does this to 2 or 3 Scrakes at the same time that I'm trying to kill. And I'm not just talking a hypothetical scenario here. I've had several wipes that were caused by this exact situation.

While the Fleshpound isn't quite as problematic, it's still not a good idea to light him up. When a Support Specialist or Sharpshooter goes in to kill a Fleshpound, they need to have it's attention completely on them. If the Firebug off to the side starts lighting up the Fleshpound, they risk pulling it's attention off of the Support or Sharpshooter and on them instead often when the Fleshpound is raging as well. Now we have a raging Fleshpound running loose in the middle of our group that will likely injure or even kill several players before it's taken care of. And not only that. While we were busy saving the Firebug from the Fleshpound, a bunch of other ZEDs snuck in through our defensive line and are now going to wreak even more havoc.
Will we wipe? Probably not but virtually everyone on the team is going to be hurt and now we may also have to abandon the camping spot and kite the rest of the wave.

So in conclusion, the Firebug should never light up Scrakes or Fleshpounds unless they have no other choice or they are trying to save a team mate who is about to be killed.
 
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What...crisped specimens do not take extra damage. It's not a good idea to blindly believe everything on the wiki.

Yes, 1 puff will not rage a 6 man HoE scrake but it stops supports from 1 shotting it and burn damage doesn't affect head health so the sharpshooter still needs 2 bolts/5 lar shots to kill. Crispied scrakes do stop raging. Problem is, it takes 6 seconds for that to happen and they resume raging once they stop burning. In 6 seconds, a sharpshooter can kill a scrake at any distance with the crossbow, or if the scrake gets too close, they can use m14/lar or have the support 1 shot it.

Regarding the burning fleshpound, the no raging thing only happens if they're crispy. Problem is it takes 6 second for a fleshpound to crisp up. Demo, support, and sharpshooter can kill a 6 man HoE fp in under 6 seconds. Plus, the crisp up only stops rage from damage; they will still rage from LOS. And, fleshpounds have 50% resistance to fire.

Crispup is a very powerful tool but at the speed specimens move at HoE, it is rarely ever useful against the big guys because the power classes can kill scrakes and fleshpounds in 6 seconds. Why have a non raging scrake/fleshpound when you can have a dead one instead? The only time crisping would be useful is if you are kiting. And if you're kiting, more often than not, you are not a firebug nor are you carrying firebug weapons
 
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What...crisped specimens do not take extra damage. It's not a good idea to blindly believe everything on the wiki.

Yes, 1 puff will not rage a 6 man HoE scrake but it stops supports from 1 shotting it and burn damage doesn't affect head health so the sharpshooter still needs 2 bolts/5 lar shots to kill. Crispied scrakes do stop raging. Problem is, it takes 6 seconds for that to happen and they resume raging once they stop burning. In 6 seconds, a sharpshooter can kill a scrake at any distance with the crossbow, or if the scrake gets too close, they can use m14/lar or have the support 1 shot it.

Regarding the burning fleshpound, the no raging thing only happens if they're crispy. Problem is it takes 6 second for a fleshpound to crisp up. Demo, support, and sharpshooter can kill a 6 man HoE fp in under 6 seconds. Plus, the crisp up only stops rage from damage; they will still rage from LOS. And, fleshpounds have 50% resistance to fire.

Crispup is a very powerful tool but at the speed specimens move at HoE, it is rarely ever useful against the big guys because the power classes can kill scrakes and fleshpounds in 6 seconds. Why have a non raging scrake/fleshpound when you can have a dead one instead? The only time crisping would be useful is if you are kiting. And if you're kiting, more often than not, you are not a firebug nor are you carrying firebug weapons

You're dead on about the crisping only being valid in a kiting situation, and generally players aren't kiting as a firebug. I will say that I've seen you successfully kite 2 FPs as the last alive on bedlam as a firebug, so there are a few players that are the exception to those rules of thumb :p
 
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The main problems with firebug are: lowering visibility by flames, triggering burn animations that make the headshot zones go mad and... reducing framerate drastically when scoping Xbow. All of it makes sharpshooter's life very difficult, so the two mentioned should pair only when going for hot cross fun achievement. A proper commando (one going for headshots) also has reasons to hate firebugs.

However, when the visibility is not that important (lazy supports and spam demos on team), firebug is tolerable. But in that circumstances he hardly gets any kills, unless he dances in the first row, which, of course, drives supports mad about shielding the zeds from shotgun pellets.

I'd like to see firebugs in kiting games more often, but hardly any FB knows how to stay alive for long in those.
 
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Darkfalz post states exactly what I came to share. Firebug is better at creating problems than solving them in most instances. Also I'm fairly certain I played with you last night on abusement park where you were butthurt I wouldn't go saws on the pat after I soloed out wave 10 for the team once the map exploiting Firebad died, then tried blocking me while making a repeat wave 10 clutch with a friend on the 2nd map attempt out of said butthurtedness. Despite your best efforts to prevent it from happening, I hope you noticed how bad the firebugs weapons were when we tried using them on the 2nd pat battle.
 
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i have only played with a handful of firebugs who i consider good at playing their class. i find its more of a novelty class to mess around with rather than a serious perk, in 90% of situations another perk can do exactly what the firebug can do, but without all the downsides fire brings with it. Your advice is terrible, never set scrakes or fleshpounds alight, all it does is make it exponentially more difficult for the big-killer classes to put them down, while contributing such a miniscule amount of damage that it is negligible.

edit: played a game with the OP a couple nights ago, he was a joke, kiting wyre while the rest of the team camped, running back down to us with crispy fleshpounds and scrakes he couldnt kill, proceeded to go beserker with claymore and husk gun, raged fleshpounds with the husk gun, couldn't stun scrakes with the claymore, and basically was a huge burden on the team. he also insisted we go chainsaws for pat, and managed to fail at that too...
 
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You're referencing an actual occasion but confused on the details. I was irritated because you and your friend, who joined late, both used macros that said "chainsaws for patriarch": when you actually planned on remaining a standard layout berserker, running away from the rest of the team, and calling anyone that committed to chainsaws "scrubs." I, along with 2 others agreed to that, only to realize that you were trolling us. One confused player didn't commit while the two of us that did commit died. After that, yes, I was irritated and any reference made to "soloing for the team" is a pretty moot point when you previously sabotaged the team with misdirection.

Kilroy did the name calling. The macro wasn't addressed to you, it was to him, and we went back and forth with it. He even threw in his macro that says 'MACHETES', not saws.

When the dead spectators agreed, I even said I was just joking and wasn't going saws. I hate when a team goes saws, I'd never seriously suggest it. I wasn't 'trolling' - no one noticed when I pointed out the joke. So they still went saws. Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny. If you want to blame me for why you lost that match go ahead, don't even worry about it - we seem to run into each other enough that I'm sure at one point I'll be carrying you through to the pat again anyway.

On the topic of firebug, I think you need a little more experience with all the perks to really see how firebug can be a nuisance to each one in many different situations if you're not careful. Not only can the fire whittle down the scrakes health so a couple 9mm shots from someone grabbing aggro - which you are all of a sudden in competition for - will rage it. It prevents support specialists, or any other perk, from being able to melee flinch them - important for a lot of scrake handling techniques. If you light scrakes or even fleshpounds, you have to hope a sharpshooter/demo/whoever can line up the appropriate shots immediately before they go dancy, and if they didnt, then you have to hope again that it's not immediately raging after it's fire-dance is over. Scary ghost covered that point very well. Not to mention that even if you're fulfilling your duty as trash cleaner, all of a sudden there's a scrake in the mix, and you are trying to NOT light it, you can't really shoot at the trash around it without lighting the scrake which adds in the unnecessary risk of having a sc rage into the team. You do seem to have already, or are on your way to noticing most of this which is great.

That all on top of how using your primary weapon obscures vision and sets off launched grenades or LAW missiles in peoples faces gives firebugs a lot of drawbacks. I have played with good firebugs before, but the majority of them are not. There are some camping spots that really let the firebug shine. One example is the room with the hole in the middle on aperture - the firebug can fire down into the middle lighting all the trash and sirens and they will die long before they even get into the teams view. The mac10 is useful on maps where you can see forever - you don't need to be precise with it, just need a body shot. You can light that gorefast from 100 meters away which is enough space for the DoT to be effective.

The husk gun is mostly useful for the patriarch imo and its main benefit is illuminating the pat for the rest of the team to shoot at. Used as your method to stun scrakes during the wave takes too long and uses too much ammo for it to be used on most of the scrakes. Especially if you are using it offperk as beserker with katana + husk gun [150 ammo]
 
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I haven't played non-firebug perk together with a firebug and gotten any negative side effects, no fps drop, no hindered visuals to speak of and so on. If the scrake is in panic mode and I'm a sharp then I would rather blame myself, I should've dropped that sc within the first second or 2 it shows up, way before the 6 second panic. Even if several appears at once...

If you can spot the zeds from far away, you can DoT kill even on HoE. If you camp close to a corner then supps and demos will kill it before you kill it even with a constant stream of flames. Some spots are so good for fb that the whole team can take a nap, handle it right and it's the strongest perk. Someone has to take sc and fp though.
 
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Firebug used to be good before they got rid of weapons staying on the ground throughout waves. You could stockpile Flamethrowers like there would be no tomorrow and just hold mouse1 all wave long. Burn everything down, blind everyone watching your lane with you and show everyone how pro you are.

Then the trader wave cleanup was implemented. Now Firebugs have to learn ridiculous concepts like bursting their fire and conserving their ammunition. They've raised the bar too much! :rolleyes:
 
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Sigh...

Had a firebug on suicidal flaming scrakes that started raging. Me with my M99 I had to waste 2 bullets on most of them. 1 to stop them going at our demo and another bullet to kill it.

So in the last wave when the last 2 fps came I was out of bullets.

I could see myself renting a server only to kick noob firebugs.
 
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Firebug: "I'm out of ammo for my Flamethrower!"

-pulls out MAC-10 and starts semi-autoing every specimen and messing up hitboxes for sharpshooters-

Sharpie: "FIRE BREAKS HITBOAKS. NO HEADSHOTS POSSIBLE. :mad:"

Firebug: "U just bad lolzz.."

Sharpshooter has placed a kick vote against Firebug.

Firebug has been kicked.
Firebug had an aneurysm.
Firebug left the game.

:IS2:
 
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Firebug: "I'm out of ammo for my Flamethrower!"

-pulls out MAC-10 and starts semi-autoing every specimen and messing up hitboxes for sharpshooters-

Sharpie: "FIRE BREAKS HITBOAKS. NO HEADSHOTS POSSIBLE. :mad:"

Firebug: "U just bad lolzz.."

Sharpshooter has placed a kick vote against Firebug.

Firebug has been kicked.
Firebug had an aneurysm.
Firebug left the game.

:IS2:
Fire doesn't break hitboxes. What are you talking about?
U just bad lolzz..

Seriously, I qan do it as a sharp. All hit boxes remain intact available for you to shoot at. The will not break from a little bit of fire.
 
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Fire doesn't break hitboxes. What are you talking about?
U just bad lolzz..

Seriously, I qan do it as a sharp. All hit boxes remain intact available for you to shoot at. The will not break from a little bit of fire.

stop spouting false information if you don't know what you are talking about.

crisped zeds hitboxes are much harder to hit as sharpshooter, that is a fact.

i would love to see you efficiently mow down heads as m14 sharp with a firebug spamming fire.
 
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It doesn't break them, but if the zeds are moving towards you normally, the hitboxes will be in the normal place and easy to aim at. If they're on fire, the hitboxes will be moving around, and almost impossible to regularly hit (as well as the fact the zeds themselves may be moving around and not coming straight at you).
 
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